206 replies to this topic

[Kelderian]

verybad, on 04 November 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

Beacause This is a real time game, and TT is a turn based game. They want SS heat sinks to remain viable, at a 2x value, they would be completely unviable.

In all honesty, i dont see much of a problem when DHS are better for nearly every build. this still is a game of the Mechwarrior brand and therefore placed in the Battletech Universe. With DHS being the effective successor of SHS it would just follow lore.

But apart from any Lorre aspects, do you at least see the problems with high heat weapons? Tripling the firing rate of weapons without tripling heat dissipation gives all high heat weapons a rather harsh penalty. To use two extremes, every extra shot of a gauss just would need one more heatsaink to stay cool. Every extra shot with a ER PPC would need 13 more. So with tripled Firing rates a Gaussrifle has a 3 ton penalty for heat while the ER PPC has a 39ton penalty. This is plain bollocs and easyly explains why we see mostly small lasers, LRMS and Gauss in the current game. This is not Tabletop, but using just a few aspects of TT while kicking others out of the door was about to cause some issues...

[miliardo]

I didn't read the whole thread but I have a question: Would it be a good thing if Trial mechs were to have separate MM where they could fight only among themselves? Then they can suicide each other as long as it pleases them...

[Noth]

miliardo, on 05 November 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

I didn't read the whole thread but I have a question: Would it be a good thing if Trial mechs were to have separate MM where they could fight only among themselves? Then they can suicide each other as long as it pleases them...

That doesn't fix the issue. It only covers it up. The reason people suicide in trials is because it can be up to 2.5 time better at making money than running a full premade and pub stomping. To fix the issue you need to make actually playing to win more profitable and make the owned mechs better at making money.

[miliardo]

Ok, but if it can't be fixed in any way why not cover it up then? In trial mech MM you play only against other trial mechs so no real advantage in custom configs and other stuff.. In normal MM you won't be seeing trials and wouldn't have to face enemy team with -2 because they suicided at the start of the match.

[Noth]

miliardo, on 05 November 2012 - 03:51 AM, said:

Ok, but if it can't be fixed in any way why not cover it up then? In trial mech MM you play only against other trial mechs so no real advantage in custom configs and other stuff.. In normal MM you won't be seeing trials and wouldn't have to face enemy team with -2 because they suicided at the start of the match.

I just explained part of fixing it. You have to make playing to win more profitable than running suicides in both trial and owned mechs. Once that is done you will see a drastic drop in suicide runs. Dropping base winning however isn't the answer as that will quite simply punish new and/or bad players.

[Hoshi Toranaga]

The funny thing if you calculate what the pre-patch notes and Brian stated, instead of fixing heat for PPCs (and kicking the min range of the PPC which is rediculous for the game like this) and Large Laser/Pulses, now even more lasers become totally bogus to use.
I loved the balance in TT PPC vs Gauss and Lasers vs ACs. Both had down and upsides and both were usable. However here the PPC vs Gauss, the gauss always wins and nowadays even the AC win over every single laser now, except small lasers.
So the thing is just to get the variants with the most missile and ballistic hardpoints or a rack of small lasers and disregard the rest... (which is a shame as I love the PPC Awesomes in TT, they did overheat too but they were viable to play.)

[Hexcaliber]

Mr 144, on 04 November 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

"Phase 1 Matchmaking. Max pre-made group size is not set to 4."

BwaaHaaHaHa!

You all realize this is nothing right? This literally means zero change to the current system. No where in any of the Phase 1 descriptions were partial pre's garunteed to face another partial pre. The original Phase 1 simply threw a 4 man (or smaller) group into the general "bucket" of Pugs, with random chance determining if another partial would queue up on the otherside (or even there own side).....So...with NO size restrictions...we're left with ANY premade group being thrown in the "bucket" of Pugs, with a random chance of queueing up against another pre...Oh wait! That's exactly as it is right now!

Bravo PGI....Bravo...smoke and mirrors

Mr 144

Teams will simply metagame and form two groups of 4, countdown on team speak with each group leader hitting launch at the same time, trying to game the system by getting both teams into the same match. The fact they (Piranha) seem incapable of adding a couple of variables and a simple if, then, else conditional expression into the MM loop, beggars belief.

I lose more faith with each patch release, and seeing the same player names round, after round, after round, player numbers cannot be that high atm, even the number of streams and viewers on twitch has dropped this weekend. The devs need to realise players move on quickly now, they are not in the habit of sticking around waiting for devs to get their **** together. At this rate it will be May next year before they have all the mech’s they have listed added to the game, and four maps after all this time, is frankly pathetic.

PGI are blowing their chance to make an impression now it’s free to all, and officially "live", they are just not doing enough. They claim they cannot get any more useful data from closed beta testers, yet umpteen issues reported in closed beta continue unresolved.

[Sam Slade]

sirius89, on 04 November 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

It is pretty much an Alpha.Betas are usually feature complete builds.This game is faaaaaar away from feature complete.

Listen now and rejoice all ye children of Activision! Suckle not at the teat of EA marketing tests! Never more shall we be the bovine money mills, data mined and mined again by the perfidious promise of exclusive access.

Behold! The new dawn of reasonable feedback! Bask in the tender warmth of customer driven change! The good book of beta is revealed and we labour no more under the yoke of unchanging jargon and hardcoded bugs.

tl dr: Beta testing used to mean getting feedback and shaping the product to suit the desires of the consumer... now it's starting to mean that again.

Hexcaliber, on 05 November 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

Teams will simply metagame and form two groups of 4, countdown on team speak with each group leader hitting launch at the same time, trying to game the system by getting both teams into the same match.

... and then they drop against each other? Usually means a good game for all.

Edited by Sam Slade, 05 November 2012 - 05:00 AM.

[Noth]

Hexcaliber, on 05 November 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

Teams will simply metagame and form two groups of 4, countdown on team speak with each group leader hitting launch at the same time, trying to game the system by getting both teams into the same match. The fact they (Piranha) seem incapable of adding a couple of variables and a simple if, then, else conditional expression into the MM loop, beggars belief.

Hex, you being in CB, you should know that that is not how phase 1 will work. It will never put 2 4 man groups on the same team. The Email detailing phase one specifically states that only one 4 man premade on a team withthe rest made of pugs and partial groups.

[Onyx Rain]

Squid von Torgar, on 05 November 2012 - 03:30 AM, said:

Re DHS

As mentioned earlier in this thread and as I asked Bryan, the key factor here is the amount DHS are nerfed, specifically relating to heat dissipation.

Bryan stated in the patch notes that DHS were being reduced to 1.4 instead of 2.0. That number has to refer to the bonus that HS give to your heat threshold. (SHS increase the amount by 1. and currently DHS outside of the engine increase that number by 2).

Now I think that the vast majority of us would concede that if your heat threshold (The amount of heat you can generate before shutting down) is doubled, it would create a lot of OP builds and effectively remove heat for certain builds. That number should be reduced, its common sense.

The key thing is though HS and DHS don't just raise your heat threshold. They decrease the time it takes for you mech to cool down. Again SHS increase this by 0.1 per second, DHS (outside of the engine) currently increase this by 0.2.

Now if the keep they 0.2 factor what we end up with is DHS still being very beneficial, but they wont break the heat scale. In other words they would be balanced.

You have a 40% bonus to the amount of heat you can generate and you still get rid of that heat twice as fast as having SHS. This makes things like the Awesome 9M and other high heat builds viable.

Of course the huge question is, whether they are reducing the 0.2 down to 0.14. If so then yes DHS are terribly broken.

Hopefully as he mentioned Bryan can find the answer for us.

I'm not sure that even if they keep it at .2 per second that it is going to be the benefit you think it is because most builds using double heat sinks are going to end up with roughly half the total HS they probably would...so builds that had 20 shs, will have 10 dhs...gotta remember they take up 3 crit slots, throw endo and/or ferro on there and/or use the weight you saved to mount larger weapons(which also tend to take up more crit spots) and you are right back around where you would have been with shs as far as the dissipation rate....or near it at least. You may be right that it will help a bit though.

But...
Also factor in the pulse/small laser "fix" that is supposedly coming that makes them run hotter and many builds will loose even more heat efficiency.

Also note that at the very least when you don't consider the possible .2 dissipation the 1.4 heat "fix" gimps some builds currently using dhs, while only benefiting others very slightly. Which overall effectively makes it status quo compared to how things are now, but some builds actually get nerfed. .2 dissipation may smooth that over a bit but still you're going to have a fix that is pretty much functionally equivalent to the system pgi themselves said is broken.... Pile on the pulse/small laser changes and that .2 will mean even less for many builds.

So you might be right that it will help...I'll grant you that, but I don't think it is going to be that great.

I like the fix that Iceman posted in another thread...
1.6-1.7 for the dhs in the engine...2 for the ones in the engine free slots and on the chassis....that is a compromise between where we are at now and the proposed 1.4 fix, and the true 2 rating DHS. Benefits all builds already using dhs, nerfs none (like the fix will end up doing) but cuts way down on the potential for OP builds that basically ignore heat.

I don't know if he considered the .2 heat dissipation. If not you may be able to take the 1.6-1.7 his math came up with to prevent some current dhs builds from being nerfed and knock it down to his original 1.4 or maybe 1.5-1.6 and still have an overall benefit to all builds. I think any dhs fix needs to benefit all builds using dhs as it is now.

Heat being to harsh has been one of the major complaints about this game...they need to listen to their player base and lighten up a bit, but I don't want it gone. I think heat management and skill doing it should be in the game...but it is a bit harsh as it is now, and the proposed fix isn't enough IMO.

Edited by Onyx Rain, 05 November 2012 - 05:30 AM.

[Squid von Torgar]

Quote

I'm not sure that even if they keep it at .2 per second that it is going to be the benefit you think it is because most builds using double heat sinks are going to end up with roughly half the total HS they probably would...so builds that had 20 shs, will have 10 dhs...gotta remember they take up 3 crit slots, throw endo and/or ferro on there and/or use the weight you saved to mount larger weapons(which also tend to take up more crit spots) and you are right back around where you would have been with shs....or near it at least.

Well lets take a look at the Awesome 9M (A varient that really does need some benefit from DHS).

It comes with 20 DHS as standard (It cant fit more it doesnt have the crit slots).

Currently only the external DHS work properly. So thats 12 SHS in the engine plus 8 DHS in the chassis for a total of 28 HS. I can therefore sink 2.8 heat per second

If the .2 still stands then its the equivilent of 40 HS so I can sink 4.0 heat per second. Thats 30% quicker cooling than i did have. Furthermore my heat threshold has been increased by 40%.

It also makes more sense as actually DHS do cool twice as fast as SHS. If they use the .14, they just aren't DHS.

Now lets look at the figures if the use the 0.14 rate.

20 x 0.14 = 2.8 heat per second, notice its identical to how it works currently (before the fix tomorrow)? The only buff would be the 40% higher heat threshold.

Now dont get me wrong, its not a huge difference but I certainly would prefer 30% faster cooling as opposed to no extra cooling at all.

The irony is that even with the 0.2 rate and the 1.4 rate its still too hot to justify using ER PPCS

Edited by Squid von Torgar, 05 November 2012 - 05:47 AM.

[Mr 144]

Noth, on 05 November 2012 - 05:07 AM, said:

Hex, you being in CB, you should know that that is not how phase 1 will work. It will never put 2 4 man groups on the same team. The Email detailing phase one specifically states that only one 4 man premade on a team withthe rest made of pugs and partial groups.

Nope...go read it again. This is the "bucket" theory, meaning random chance dictates group composition. All Phase 1 does is to limit individual premade group size to 4 or less. There is no reason why 2 groups of four cannot, by chance (or attempts to game the system) wind up on the same team.

From the Beta E-mail..

Quote

Matches will still be 8v8 but instead of playing against 8 people in an organized premade, you will see a max of 4.

This refers to not facing a single 8 man team...NOT multiple 4-man groups. Gaming the system will still be possible as Hex states, although it's equally possible the two 4-man teams will be on opposing sides. in that case, they'll probablly just power down and let the other half stomp 8v4. Never underestimate the ability of douchebags to rinse and repeat.

Mr 144

Edited by Mr 144, 05 November 2012 - 05:46 AM.

[Gabz]

Ilwrath, on 04 November 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

Am I blind or is there really no match-maker changes in those notes?

Yes you are... Phase 1 matchmaking team of 4 max... Maaan

Mr 144, on 05 November 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

This refers to not facing a single 8 man team...NOT multiple 4-man groups. Gaming the system will still be possible as Hex states, although it's equally possible the two 4-man teams will be on opposing sides. in that case, they'll probablly just power down and let the other half stomp 8v4. Never underestimate the ability of douchebags to rinse and repeat.

Mr 144

Not it's not since the rest of the team is filled with pugs...

[Noth]

Mr 144, on 05 November 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

Nope...go read it again. This is the "bucket" theory, meaning random chance dictates group composition. All Phase 1 does is to limit individual premade group size to 4 or less. There is no reason why 2 groups of four cannot, by chance (or attempts to game the system) wind up on the same team.

From the Beta E-mail..


This refers to not facing a single 8 man team...NOT multiple 4-man groups. Gaming the system will still be possible as Hex states, although it's equally possible the two 4-man teams will be on opposing sides. in that case, they'll probablly just power down and let the other half stomp 8v4. Never underestimate the ability of douchebags to rinse and repeat.

Mr 144

You left the rest of the email out where it details the rest of the group would be made of puggers and partial groups.

[Grugore]

blarkalark, on 04 November 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

Translation=We're going to nickle and dime you to death.

A custom skin is a paint job. Just like a car, if you want to switch , you have to paint it again. Sounds reasonable to me. You just have to make sure you like the skin before buying it. Also. Once you get the skin, you own it. For that mech. And the only way you'll get nickled and dimed to death is if you keep changing our mind. LOL

Edited by Grugore, 05 November 2012 - 05:57 AM.

[Wolke]

How far along are the interface changes? Lobby chat for example?

Edited by Wolke, 05 November 2012 - 07:31 AM.

[Taryys]

Not mentioned yet in patches.
The devs are working on this. I think that this may get in there during the Jan UI overhaul.

Wolke, on 05 November 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

How far along are the interface changes? Lobby chat for example?

[Wolfways]

Krivvan, on 04 November 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

How is it butchered? Not allowing gauss rifles would be butchering the rules for the K2.

Instead of allowing gauss in the arms (which makes sense) they allow them to stay hidden away in the torso's and change the look of the arms when there's no PPC's there.
What "rules" do you mean anyway? In TT the K2 only carried PPC's, and the K3 carried ERPPC's with 20DHS which with the currently intended "DHS" looks like it will not be playable.

The game is based on TT whether people like it or not. If their rules don't allow TT mechs to exist then their rules are wrong.

Edited by Wolfways, 05 November 2012 - 08:48 AM.

[Chrohno]

Shalune, on 04 November 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

Not sure if anyone else caught this, but the most interesting part to me is the description of ECM. It's suggesting ECM can be put on K2 which also implies there are no, or few limitations on which mechs can carry ECM.

Don't mind me, I'll just be sneaking up behind you with a 63 alpha at 90km/h

I believe that this was merely stating that since Gaussapults don't need a target lock, they will benefit the most from the implementation of ECM. All of the LRM boats will be directly affected by an ECM module being brought onto the battlefield, while the K2 Cats will not be affected at all.

[River Walker]

Stimbles, on 04 November 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

I'm not going to be grinding out millions of C-Bills to keep switching between Single and Double 1.4sinks to test them out in a live environment.

I feel the same way. Why blow million of Cbill and or MC to test things out.