218 replies to this topic

[Diablobo]

Sorry Roland, I guess you missed my example earlier where I mentioned that a mech with only two med lasers and 20 heatsinks will overheat in about 2 minutes of constant firing and running. There is no mech in any Battletech game or novel that this should happen to, and it is wrong for it to happen here. This highlights how broken the heat system is in this game.

[Eshek]

New topic for discussion: Is this guy a troll or groggiest grognard ever to grace these forums with his presence?

[Noth]

Eshek, on 06 November 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

New topic for discussion: Is this guy a troll or groggiest grognard ever to grace these forums with his presence?

Can we go with groggiest grognard troll?

[Sarevos]

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

Sorry Roland, I guess you missed my example earlier where I mentioned that a mech with only two med lasers and 20 heatsinks will overheat in about 2 minutes of constant firing and running. There is no mech in any Battletech game or novel that this should happen to, and it is wrong for it to happen here. This highlights how broken the heat system is in this game.

Sarevos, on 06 November 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

Do you know how a fusion engine would work? nobody else post to him til he answers this then you may unleash your fury "Spehs Muhrine" style

Edited by Sarevos, 06 November 2012 - 07:08 AM.

[Noth]

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

Sorry Roland, I guess you missed my example earlier where I mentioned that a mech with only two med lasers and 20 heatsinks will overheat in about 2 minutes of constant firing and running. There is no mech in any Battletech game or novel that this should happen to, and it is wrong for it to happen here. This highlights how broken the heat system is in this game.

BTW, medium laser at one point in this game were the most over powered weapon in the game due to how often they could sustain their fire THey actually had their heat increased adn since have been pretty balanced overall. Balance is greater than all as well.

[Sarevos]

Noth, on 06 November 2012 - 07:08 AM, said:

BTW, medium laser at one point in this game were the most over powered weapon in the game due to how often they could sustain their fire THey actually had their heat increased adn since have been pretty balanced overall. Balance is greater than all as well.

YOU stahp! he must answer the question

[Noth]

Sarevos, on 06 November 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

YOU stahp! he must answer the question

He won't because the lore and physics behind it won't support his point.

[Diablobo]

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Noth, on 06 November 2012 - 07:07 AM, said:

Can we go with groggiest grognard troll?

Isn't that what grade school children do? When they can't think of anything meaningful to say, they lash out. Well played. Recess is over, run along and let the adults talk.

[Noth]

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

.
Isn't that what grade school children do? When they can't think of anything meaningful to say, they lash out. Well played. Recess is over, run along and let the adults talk.

LoL, how about you stop repeating the same arguments over and over while ignoring the answers given to you?

[Sarevos]

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

.
Isn't that what grade school children do? When they can't think of anything meaningful to say, they lash out. Well played. Recess is over, run along and let the adults talk.

dont ignore me tell me how a fusion engine works if you know ~_~

[Roland]

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

Sorry Roland, I guess you missed my example earlier where I mentioned that a mech with only two med lasers and 20 heatsinks will overheat in about 2 minutes of constant firing and running. There is no mech in any Battletech game or novel that this should happen to, and it is wrong for it to happen here. This highlights how broken the heat system is in this game.

Dude, in TWO MINUTES of CONSTANT firing? Really? You realize how much damage you have put out in that period of time?

Let us do the math, shall we?

So, every 4 seconds you are doing 10 damage... In two minutes, you've generated 30 shots. So you've done 300 damage.

Your assessment of heat does not even remotely reflect the way the game actually works. Your desperate attempt to cling to battletech source material has left you in a state which makes no sense.

See, in Battletech, everything is simplified such that all weapons fire at the same speed...because it's a turn based game. That's not how it is in a live action game, because such a system is boring.

In Mechwarrior, different weapons have different firing times... and generally, all of them fire faster than the 10 seconds which comprise a turn in battletech.

What this lets you do is control, as the pilot, the heat generation of your mech. It becomes something more complex than just matching heat sinks against weapons.

If you want to match the heat mechanics of battletech, then here's what you do.... fire your weapons once per 10 seconds. There you go. Problem solved.

Now, what will happen in that situation is that you'll probably be killed by someone who fires their weapons faster than that... because they'll choose to incur additional heat for a while, and then stop firing after they kill you in order to cool down.

This is called heat management. It's a component of the game which is good. You need to learn to do it.

[Rofl]

For the TT loyalists: The auto shutdown occurs in MWO at 1 heat over on the heat scale, of which there isn't even a shutdown roll needed. Perhaps we can look at it like it's at the 30 heat level. If you wanna do that, your mech could be sitting there (with TT rules) for 30+ seconds shut down, depending on how far over the 30 heat you went and how many sinks you have. Also note that it doesn't get any harder to target, and you don't move slower, both things that occur in the TT as you overheat.

It is so obvious that they didn't use a strict TT comparison for overheat, I'm not sure why you'd bother trying to enforce this one?

[Diablobo]

Rofl, on 06 November 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

It is so obvious that they didn't use a strict TT comparison for overheat, I'm not sure why you'd bother trying to enforce this one?

Maybe because they almost directly carried the weapon heat values and damage ratings from tabletop. They obviously are trying to emulate the heat system, but since the weapons fire more often with pretty much the same heat values, they need to raise the heat capacity and dissipation to compensate. As it stands now, we might as well not even have heatsinks for all the good it does us.

[Noth]

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

Maybe because they almost directly carried the weapon heat values and damage ratings from tabletop. They obviously are trying to emulate the heat system, but since the weapons fire more often with pretty much the same heat values, they need to raise the heat capacity and dissipation to compensate. As it stands now, we might as well not even have heatsinks for all the good it does us.

NO they aren't trying to emulate the heat system.The threshhold is different, the penalties are different, heat has been changed on most weapons in some way either highered or lowered. The only thing that makes this like the TT system is that it is a heat system.

Edited by Noth, 06 November 2012 - 12:13 PM.

[Diablobo]

Almost every stock mech in all of the Technical Readouts is poorly designed when it comes to alpha strikes causing overheating. The authors always stick more weapons on a mech than the heatsinks can handle. The mech construction rules make it possible to address this issue, and the inclusion of the mechlab in this game should do the same. The only trouble is, they have effectively tripled the heat values because of using the realtime rate of fire while keeping turn based heat dissipation. It is broken and needs to be fixed.

Noth, on 06 November 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

NO they aren't trying to emulate the heat system.The threshhold is different, the penalties are different, heat has been changed on most weapons in some way either highered or lowered. The only thing that makes this like the TT system is that it is a heat system.

If they aren't trying to emulate the heat system, then why are the heat values for the weapons almost a direct match to the TT?
Your argument is invalid. NEXT.

Edited by Diablobo, 06 November 2012 - 12:23 PM.

[Noth]

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

Almost every stock mech in all of the Technical Readouts is poorly designed when it comes to alpha strikes causing overheating. The authors always stick more weapons on a mech than the heatsinks can handle. The mech construction rules make it possible to address this issue, and the inclusion of the mechlab in this game should do the same. The only trouble is, they have effectively tripled the heat values because of using the realtime rate of fire while keeping turn based heat dissipation. It is broken and needs to be fixed.


If they aren't trying to emulate the heat system, then why are the heat values for the weapons almost a direct match to the TT?
Your argument is invalid. NEXT.

Because they used them as a starting point. If they were trying to emulate the TT heat system all mechs would have the same heat capacity, mechs would begin having a chance to shut down after firing only a couple of weapons and heat would only be flushed once every 10 seconds.

The more you speak the more it is obvious you just want TT and refuse to accept anything but that. This is not the game you are looking for if that is the case.

Edited by Noth, 06 November 2012 - 12:27 PM.

[Diablobo]

No I do not want TT, I want a game where a properly designed mech can operate without overheating. In the case of stock mechs that will do this, that is fine, but when 2 med lasers can cause a mech to explode (on Frozen City no less), something is very, very wrong, and it is not very fun.

Edited by Diablobo, 06 November 2012 - 12:38 PM.

[Kelthar]

Noth, on 05 November 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:

Actually if you read the lore behind the fusion engine, excessive heat can cause failure of the safety measures and containment measure causing a permanent shutdown or even what appears to be an explosion as air rushes into the containment area (due to failed containment measures) and then that air being superheated explodes outward. So even in lore it makes since for the engines to be able to explode from excessive heat.

Please cite, because I've never seen it, and the rules clearly define what happens.

[Noth]

Kelthar, on 06 November 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

Please cite, because I've never seen it, and the rules clearly define what happens.

Go read the flavor texts, novels and other stuff other than rules and look it up on Sarna. The sarna article has been cited already by the way.

[CocoaJin]

If the mech shouldnt explode without ammo, then it shouldnt explode. There are ways to convey the significant threat of overheating without ammo onboard.

Currently, damaging energy weapons themselves is a great alternative for eenrgy boats, not as destructive as an ammo explosion, but it get sthe job done(Ive had cascading weapon destruction before), the current damage to the CT is fine, but Im not sure the overheat damage to the CT should kill the mech, just take it down to red. I'd like to see more sub-system damage, damaged and destruction of heat sinks, damage to the part of the mech housing the heat sinks, damage to actuators, the gyro, the cockpit, even the pilot.