532 replies to this topic

[Rifter]

The thing is they are BREAKING THE GAME with the changes lately to DHS, its getting to the point where this isnt mechwarrior anymore. Lets take a look at what they are doing with the heatsinks and use some examples and some very light math from mechs currently in game, this isnt even touching the clan mechs which are more reliant on double heatsinks and will be even more broken than the below example...


We have an awesome AWS-8Q, this is a first gen awesome that uses old tech with no tier two equipment, its the workhorse awesome from the IS. It has 3 PPC's as its main weponry and 28 SHS. This is an all around good mech, not expensive to run or buy or repair and packs a punch, with barely enough heatsinks but it is a workable design.

Then after tier two tech comes in they redesign this mech with tier two tech to combat the clans. They release the AWS-9M. They replace the standard PPC's with ER models and the standard heatsinks with doubles to combat the extra heat of the ER PPC's. It has 20 DHS so 40 SHS worth of cooling which is a substantial upgrade over the 28 SHS of the previous AWS-8Q model but this is NEEDED to cool the much hotter ER PPC's as well as the addition secondary weaponry this mech has. They also add a larger XL engine to boost speed while also reducing weight. This mech is Very expensive to buy and repair due to all the tier two tech and is a clear and definate upgrade over the older model, and you pay for this as its way more expensive to buy.

With the DHS nerfed down to 140% cooling, less than half their intended effectivness that puts the AWS-9M at 28 SHS worth of cooling, the exact same as the AWS-8Q. But remember its got ER PPC's so will run way hotter than the 8Q, like to the point of being useless in battle hotter. So what is supposed to be a clear and expensive upgrade over the 8Q turns out be much much more ineffective and boarderline useless to field. You are paying a huge premium for tier two tech that is WORSE than the tier one mech it is replacing.

When you start to break stock canon designs such as descibed above to the point where tier two tech is WORSE that tier one tech but still alot more expensive you are now in a place where you are just making a mockery of battletech and the lore involved and should stop using the BT/MW name.

If you want to make a big stompy robot game fine im ok with that, i like big stompy robots, but dont try and pawn this crap off as BT because it clearly is NOT in the direction this game has taken. Call it hawken, world of mechs, gundam robots online, whatever you want but dont abuse the BT/MW name like this if you are going to clearly step away from it to the point where stock designs are unplayable and worse than the designs they are supposed to be a upgrade from because you have broken the game mechanics to the point that makes them useless more expensive upgrades.

Just something to think about, and if you think that example is bad i can throw some clan deisngs in there that are alot more broken than that awesome example.

[aspect]

In the interests of full disclosure, I only read a small amount of your post. Wall of text complaints that are filled with references to a 90's tabletop game are not my forte.

[Rifter]

aspect, on 05 November 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

In the interests of full disclosure, I only read a small amount of your post. Wall of text complaints that are filled with references to a 90's tabletop game are not my forte.

Then i suggest you read the post, also your pic is broken.

[Valder]

Sounds like you should play battletech tabletop instead of MWO.

[Helmer]

When developing MWO PGI started with the exact TableTop stats . As someone who has been testing since the early Friends and Family stages, I felt that the game (with a 1 - 1 TT translation) was simply not fun.
Small lasers on a fast moving 'mech was an instant win button, LRMs were grossly ineffective, and Autocannons were next to useless.

Although I can respect the opinion that perhaps PGI has strayed too far from the TT values, I feel that almost every single change has been for the better. Things are still in a state of balancing and fluctuation. Adherence to the original TT rules is great, however, there comes a time when the TT fail in a First Person setting such as this.
The TT rules were very complex for a TT game, however, they represent , in some cases, abstract values and concepts that are not needed in a environment such as this. The rules do not scale well and must be adapted.


Again, I can respect your opinion, I hope you can understand that perhaps not everyone will agree with you.


Cheers.

[Rifter]

Valder, on 05 November 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

Sounds like you should play battletech tabletop instead of MWO.

If you dont see the issue with upgrades that you pay more for being downgrades over cheaper supposedly worse tech i really dont know what to tell you.

Helmer, on 05 November 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

When developing MWO PGI started with the exact TableTop stats . As someone who has been testing since the early Friends and Family stages, I felt that the game (with a 1 - 1 TT translation) was simply not fun.
Small lasers on a fast moving 'mech was an instant win button, LRMs were grossly ineffective, and Autocannons were next to useless.

Although I can respect the opinion that perhaps PGI has strayed too far from the TT values, I feel that almost every single change has been for the better. Things are still in a state of balancing and fluctuation. Adherence to the original TT rules is great, however, there comes a time when the TT fail in a First Person setting such as this.
The TT rules were very complex for a TT game, however, they represent , in some cases, abstract values and concepts that are not needed in a environment such as this. The rules do not scale well and must be adapted.



Cheers.

Dont get me wrong, i agree it cant stay TT. But when it gets to the point when you are turning teir two tech upgrades into downgrades you are doing it wrong.

[Valder]

Rifter, on 05 November 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

If you dont see the issue with upgrades that you pay more for being downgrades over cheaper supposedly worse tech i really dont know what to tell you.



Dont get me wrong, i agree it cant stay TT. But when it gets to the point when you are turning teir two tech upgrades into downgrades you are doing it wrong.

Okay, I'm actually going to read all of your giant post... hold on.

Edit: Okay, I regret reading all of that. Of course exact build translations from tabletop are going to be wonky. Are you telling the devs all weapons should only fire once every 10 seconds?

I find my tier 2 equipment dragon far superior to my tier 1, because I designed it with real-time rules in mind, not because I was designing a tabletop mech. If I would have built a dragon using tabletop rules, it would probably be terrible.

C'mon man. Of course things are going to have to change for balance. You think the Doom board game is the same experience as the computer game? Of course not.

Edited by Valder, 05 November 2012 - 08:20 PM.

[New Breed]

I stopped reading after the DHS phrase.

What part of "it broke the game, heat was no longer an issue" do you not get?

Edited by Ghost Bear, 05 November 2012 - 08:17 PM.

[Valaska]

Actually his picture is juuust about on the money.

MWO isn't going to be CBT, it never was meant to be CBT, and it never would or hell could ever even be CBT. If you want CBT, its going to be a turn based game made.

That said, is it a MechWarrior game? Well, yes it is. Is it one true to the older mechwarriors? Yeah, it actually is. They are doing a good job of it, and you haven't even gotten the new Awesome to judge how its going to work. Look if you are feeling the need for nostalgia I will play you on MegaMek right now (and cream the floor with you ), but give PGI a chance before you burn your passport and denounce your citizenship.

[Viper69]

Rifter, on 05 November 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

If you dont see the issue with upgrades that you pay more for being downgrades over cheaper supposedly worse tech i really dont know what to tell you.



Dont get me wrong, i agree it cant stay TT. But when it gets to the point when you are turning teir two tech upgrades into downgrades you are doing it wrong.

With this slantwase upgrade in tech that the DHS change is I dont think I will fear clan mechs as much. Because they surely will be nerf hearded into the ground and easily stomped by my atlas.

[Rifter]

Valaska, on 05 November 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

Actually his picture is juuust about on the money.

MWO isn't going to be CBT, it never was meant to be CBT, and it never would or hell could ever even be CBT. If you want CBT, its going to be a turn based game made.

That said, is it a MechWarrior game? Well, yes it is. Is it one true to the older mechwarriors? Yeah, it actually is. They are doing a good job of it, and you haven't even gotten the new Awesome to judge how its going to work. Look if you are feeling the need for nostalgia I will play you on MegaMek right now (and cream the floor with you ), but give PGI a chance before you burn your passport and denounce your citizenship.

Actually i have played the AWS-9M in its current state, which is better than what its goign to be after tommorows "fix" right now the AWS-9M has 30 SHS worth of cooling and still runs to hot, tommorows patch will make that worse not better.

Edited by Rifter, 05 November 2012 - 08:21 PM.

[DraigUK]

Rifter, on 05 November 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

If you dont see the issue with upgrades that you pay more for being downgrades over cheaper supposedly worse tech i really dont know what to tell you.



Dont get me wrong, i agree it cant stay TT. But when it gets to the point when you are turning teir two tech upgrades into downgrades you are doing it wrong.

Generally PGI have got things right...but the DHS thing is pretty...meh, along with the matchmaking issue.

Tuning things for todays FPS is of course needed, but the devs have just gone too far away from the BT on this issue (jn my opinion). Turning Double heatsinks from a 100% gain to a 40% gain is...bad. 60% for sake of balance? Yeah maybe.

But "double" heatsinks that are less than half? C'mon now...

Edited by DraigUK, 05 November 2012 - 08:22 PM.

[Phlinger]

This is one of those times when you need to ask yourself.... Do you fear change? Are you unwilling to explore new methods of accomplishing the same goal?

Transferring TableTop rules directly to the Real-Time beast that is the current MechWarrior Online does not work. Personally I look forward to testing the new Heat Sinks. Even before I pass judgement on any of the nerfs/boosts/conversions.

When FASA made the TT rules, the game was completely turn based. That does not transfer well to the fast paced game that we now have. I enjoyed TT and even Pen&Paper BattleTech, but sticking completely to those rules vehemently just will not work.

[Rifter]

Viper69, on 05 November 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

With this slantwase upgrade in tech that the DHS change is I dont think I will fear clan mechs as much. Because they surely will be nerf hearded into the ground and easily stomped by my atlas.

Thats exactly the point, clan mechs are SUPPOSED TO WIPE THE FLOOR with IS designs, its supposed to be 5 clan(star) against 8 IS mechs and get a even fight. If you are going to stick with the BT/MW name then you need to stick with the lore, why else use the name.

Changing the mechanics is fine but there is a line that can be crossed, and IMO PGI has now crossed it.

[Elizander]

I wouldn't really be happy with the game if I could spam lasers and PPCs like I did in MW4 and completely forget that I had a heat bar. If the DHS heat is too low, they can raise it. They specifically stated they started on the low end so they don't have to end up reducing the DHS effectiveness and can instead raise it up slowly until it's just right.

[Vilheim]

Rifter, on 05 November 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

Dont get me wrong, i agree it cant stay TT. But when it gets to the point when you are turning teir two tech upgrades into downgrades you are doing it wrong.

WellI think that it will be very good for you to try DHS out tomorrow and see if it is really the downgrade you think it is. However I believe that the Devs have done this because having double heat sinks actually double heat dissipation in the current game balance would make energy weapons far too strong. By having it at its measly 1.4, I still believe double heat sinks will be a significant upgrade on most if not all builds, if not quite the upgrade you would expect from canon.
Also, I disagree with your thinking that this game has "strayed so far away" from Battletech and Mechwarrior that it shouldn't be called a mechwarrior game. Do you remember MechWarrior 4? If I remember correctly, there was no double heatsinks really, at least not visibly. ECM didn't work in that game like it does in canon, nor did BAP. I don't remember TAG even being available. Most "canon" variants seemed underpowered, and often you could load on much more secondary weaponry. I would still call that a MechWarrior game though, just as I call this a MechWarrior game.

[Tempered]

@OP
Don't you think you're being a bit overly dramatic? You can not translate a turn based pen and paper game into first person mech simulator without making some changes. It just doesn't work. The core ideas are all still there in MWO.

[Rifter]

Tempered, on 05 November 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

@OP
Don't you think you're being a bit overly dramatic? You can not translate a turn based pen and paper game into first person mech simulator without making some changes. It just doesn't work. The core ideas are all still there in MWO.

Thats just it, the "core" ideas are no longer there. DHS is supposed to be HUGE, they are supposed to make SHS completly useless in most designs, they are the one piece of tech that gave the IS any chance of fighting the clans.

And now they are not even a upgrade over singles in most mechs?

Seriously am i the only one that see the issues with this(other than mister blastman and draigUK and antony weiner)

[Lootee]

Tempered, on 05 November 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

@OP
Don't you think you're being a bit overly dramatic? You can not translate a turn based pen and paper game into first person mech simulator without making some changes. It just doesn't work. The core ideas are all still there in MWO.

Not even close. There are supposed to be 3 types of weapons each offering advantages and disadvantages over each other but all viable with individual weapons for each range: short, medium, long.

Right now one whole category of weapons consists almost solely of small lasers. The medium ranged LL and PPc are barely usable in the biggest mechs. The long and extreme range lasers and ERPPCs are completely unplayable.

BattleTech = 3 legged stool
MWO = 2 legged stool that falls over and breaks your arse if you try to sit in it

So OP is right. MWO has strayed too far from the fundamentals.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 05 November 2012 - 08:43 PM.

[Rifter]

PanchoTortilla, on 05 November 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

Not even close. There are supposed to be 3 types of weapons each offering advantages and disadvantages over each other but all viable with individual weapons for each range: short, medium, long.

Right one whole category of weapons consistly almosr solely of small lasers. The medium ranged LL and PPc are barely usable in the biggest mechs. The long and extreme range lasers and ERPPCs are completely unplayable.

BattleTech = 3 legged stool
MWO = 2 legged stool that falls over and breaks your arse if you try to sit in it

So OP is right. MWO has strayed too far from the fundamentals.

Thank god someone gets it.