532 replies to this topic

[Sayyid]

Helmer, on 05 November 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

When developing MWO PGI started with the exact TableTop stats . As someone who has been testing since the early Friends and Family stages, I felt that the game (with a 1 - 1 TT translation) was simply not fun.
Small lasers on a fast moving 'mech was an instant win button, LRMs were grossly ineffective, and Autocannons were next to useless.

Although I can respect the opinion that perhaps PGI has strayed too far from the TT values, I feel that almost every single change has been for the better. Things are still in a state of balancing and fluctuation. Adherence to the original TT rules is great, however, there comes a time when the TT fail in a First Person setting such as this.
The TT rules were very complex for a TT game, however, they represent , in some cases, abstract values and concepts that are not needed in a environment such as this. The rules do not scale well and must be adapted.


Again, I can respect your opinion, I hope you can understand that perhaps not everyone will agree with you.


Cheers.

Why didnt the developers stick with the original video concept of 3015?

It would have been far easier to balance, it would have been different, it wouldnt have had to worry about trying to balance clan tech vs IS tech.

Overall it is just better 3rd Succession War over the Clan War.

Edited by Sayyid, 06 November 2012 - 08:41 AM.

[Darkmoose]

Purlana, on 06 November 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

If they don't care about TT, stop balancing the weapons around TT values?

There is no reason why PPCs, and Large lasers should generate so much heat if the heat system and DHS are not going to function per TT rules.

It is a game based on an existing game, I would be willing to bet that most players are not here because of just big stompy robots, and in fact most players are a fan of the Battletech franchise. I understand that the rules make no sense to people who have never played a older MW game or the TT game. The fact is that the same mechs that people are complaining about overheating are the same mechs that overheat in the TT game, The mechs that trade Armor or Speed for a big Gun are the same as the TT Game. Heat management is part of Mechwarrior and has been since the Start back in the 80's. The point of the game is not to fire every weapon every time, Ad infinitum. And yes certain mechs have strengths and weaknesses, LRM boats for example are useless under 180m, especially if they don't have back up lasers. So there is a a tactic to use right there, Mechs other than an Atlas that have a gauss rifle, will either be filled with expensive adv tech, or will be so slow that they are stationary, or will just have a paper mache armor, there is another tactic. Atlases cannot turn faster than a Jenner can run, another tactic. Every mech has its strengths and weaknesses exploit them and you win far more often.

[Kekrebos]

Endarius, on 06 November 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

I would go further to state that while not all values are correct yet, (something PGI fully admits and is clearly still working on) the balance of the game is far better than it was a couple months ago when the numbers were closer to original TT. This game has to be playable in real time in the engine that is being used. This makes things alot different from a turn based tabletop game that uses freakin' DICE to determine hits. It's pretty much inane to think that the balance should carry over fully from one to the other. Tabletop was the starting point. We're past the start now. Any successful F2P is in a constant state of tweaking to maintain balance as the meta evolves, and I really don't see how this is any less a mechwarrior title than any other game. In fact it's still more faithful to BT than any of the MW4 titles, much less that travesty for the XBox. Maybe you should learn to manage your heat and operate within the parameters of THIS game instead of trying to say its "wrong," because you think the number values should be different to suit YOUR taste.

Actually there was an argument brought up early on that would have made the TT values perfect. The simple addition of a hit reticule like World of Tanks has, the change of maps to not always encourage knife fighting, and reducing the stupid double armor values and weird weapon cycle times vs heat dissipation they had put in. The half of the community loved it, the other half thought that they wouldn't be able to show off their elite ninja Call of Duty skills with it. So instead they went with Call of Mechwarrior, kept the maps like a paintball speedball setup, and then never changed the trial/stock mechs, and here we are, half the community saying, "But TT VALUES!!!" and the other half is saying "Screw some old game thats still played and loved today by many!"

My opinion, change the name of the game and the mechs already. This continued use will just frustrate and confuse players that are familiar with the franchise.

I'm just waiting for Clan tech to come out. I hope PGI and IGP has riot insurance and steel shutters when people realize they're going to make clan tech somehow worse than innersphere tech.

Edited by Rallog, 06 November 2012 - 08:45 AM.

[Darkmoose]

Sayyid, on 06 November 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

Why didnt the developers stick with the original video concept of 3015?

It would have been far easier to balance, it would have been different, it wouldnt have had to worry about trying to balance clan tech vs IS tech.

Overall it is just better 3rd Succession War over the Clan War.

The only balance between Clan Tech and IS Tech in the TT Game was numbers, the Clans just didn't field as many units. and commonly a 75 Mech Clan Cluster would curb stomp and entire RCT, 108 mechs, 324 Vehicles, and 4000 Poor Bloody Infantry and ASF Support.

[Squidhead Jax]

Sayyid, on 06 November 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

Why didnt the developers stick with the original video concept of 3015?

It would have been far easier to balance, it would have been different, it wouldnt have had to worry about trying to balance clan tech vs IS tech.

Overall it is just better 3rd Succession War over the Clan War.

I'd have preferred 4th myself. Try to change the tide of history and all that.

[Konrad]

Have you played ANY other Mechwarrior game OP? My guess is you haven't.

[Purlana]

Darkmoose, on 06 November 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

It is a game based on an existing game, I would be willing to bet that most players are not here because of just big stompy robots, and in fact most players are a fan of the Battletech franchise. I understand that the rules make no sense to people who have never played a older MW game or the TT game. The fact is that the same mechs that people are complaining about overheating are the same mechs that overheat in the TT game, The mechs that trade Armor or Speed for a big Gun are the same as the TT Game. Heat management is part of Mechwarrior and has been since the Start back in the 80's. The point of the game is not to fire every weapon every time, Ad infinitum. And yes certain mechs have strengths and weaknesses, LRM boats for example are useless under 180m, especially if they don't have back up lasers. So there is a a tactic to use right there, Mechs other than an Atlas that have a gauss rifle, will either be filled with expensive adv tech, or will be so slow that they are stationary, or will just have a paper mache armor, there is another tactic. Atlases cannot turn faster than a Jenner can run, another tactic. Every mech has its strengths and weaknesses exploit them and you win far more often.

The difference is the mechs overheat in much fewer "rounds". Leaving the heat effecient weapons such as small / medium lasers and GRs as the king of the hill.

Why bring large lasers when I can bring medium and small ones? Why bring a PPC when I can bring a GR?

Either we are stay close to the TT values or we don't. First it's double heat sinks, then it's clan double heat sinks. Next up is clan weaponry, and it's just going to get worse as more clan tech comes out...

Edited by Purlana, 06 November 2012 - 08:52 AM.

[MrPenguin]

Don't you love it when people who don't understand a single lick of code think they know how to balance things and actually add values or even do game balance?

It would be hilarious if it weren't for the fact that other people blindly follow them. At that point its just sad :/

Theirs nothing worst then having someone breathing down your neck and criticizing everything you do with out even understanding a fraction of it and adding further insult by saying they can do a better job then you.

Let me ask you guys something, if you can do a better job. Then why aren't you the ones making the game? Why aren't you making your own version?

Thats right, because you lack the knowledge and expertise to do so. You're trying to shove real world logic into this and, I'm sorry, but it doesn't work like that.

Its not your job to develop MWO. And theirs a good reason for that.

I understand that some of you are eager to throw your ideas in an attempt to make the game better, you genuinely mean well and the act itself is somewhat flattering. But I'm sorry to say, your ideas aren' nearly as good as you think.

Do you really think that quick mock up you did in 5 minutes would really work if you put it in code? I guaranty it wouldn't, and I guaranty that they probably already thought of that years before you did. The devs are not stupid and they know there stuff. They're FAR more knowledgeable then you are. I guaranty that theirs no one in this thread that can claim and prove that they're more talented and skilled then the devs at piranha. And I'm not even implying that there really that skilled or talented. But hey, if someone had enough faith in them to give them the license then they gotta be doing something right.

[Darkmoose]

Purlana, on 06 November 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

The difference is the mechs overheat in much fewer "rounds". Leaving the heat effecient weapons such as small / medium lasers and GRs as the king of the hill.

Why bring large lasers when I can bring medium and small ones? Why bring a PPC when I can bring a GR?

Either we are stay close to the TT values or we don't. First it's double heat sinks, then it's clan double heat sinks. Next up is clan weaponry, and it's just going to get worse as more clan tech comes out...

Gauss Rilfes run out of Ammo and become prime targets for snipers, I shoot at the AC spot on a Atlas, Gauss Cat, Cent or Dragon. PPCs and Lasers don't run out of Ammo, many configs allow them in the Torsos so you have weapons until dead, but you have to alternate fire, Fire one wait a few seconds fire the other wash rinse repeat, by doing a constant barrage of fire, it jostles the other mech so much you throw their aim off, and thus they waste more of their limited ammo. The hardest part about lasers is not splashing the damage all over the place, and that takes time and practice. I agree DHS should have been DHS, not Fractional Double Heat Sinks, but even with singles I have a respectable K/D Ratio. I also think they should have kept armor closer to cannon, but it isn't my game and that is a tradeoff I am willing to make especially in beta. I bring large lasers, because they have more range than the mediums everyone else has. Stay at over 300m and walk backwards while firing, range will sap their hitting power not yours, while they boat 5 ML's that only do a fraction of the damage past the range listed in the weapons box in the lower right, and overheat, you aim for one point on the stationary target and pump a few KJ in to the mech, if no one follows you, try to get someone else to play the game, one of the fish will bite.

[Kekrebos]

MrPenguin, on 06 November 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

Don't you love it when people who don't understand a single lick of code think they know how to balance things and actually add values or even do game balance?

It would be hilarious if it weren't for the fact that other people blindly follow them. At that point its just sad :/

Theirs nothing worst then having someone breathing down your neck and criticizing everything you do with out even understanding a fraction of it and adding further insult by saying they can do a better job then you.

Let me ask you guys something, if you can do a better job. Then why aren't you the ones making the game? Why aren't you making your own version?

Thats right, because you lack the knowledge and expertise to do so. You're trying to shove real world logic into this and, I'm sorry, but it doesn't work like that.

Its not your job to develop MWO. And theirs a good reason for that.

I understand that some of you are eager to throw your ideas in an attempt to make the game better, you genuinely mean well and the act itself is somewhat flattering. But I'm sorry to say, your ideas aren' nearly as good as you think.

Do you really think that quick mock up you did in 5 minutes would really work if you put it in code? I guaranty it wouldn't, and I guaranty that they probably already thought of that years before you did. The devs are not stupid and they know there stuff. They're FAR more knowledgeable then you are. I guaranty that theirs no one in this thread that can claim and prove that they're more talented and skilled then the devs at piranha. And I'm not even implying that there really that skilled or talented. But hey, if someone had enough faith in them to give them the license then they gotta be doing something right.

Wow you didn't come off sounding like you think we're all a bunch of morons that don't know how to put socks on in the morning.

Lets address this shall we:

We are beta testers. Beta testers form a very vital part of the development phase in a "Real Beta". in a "Real Beta" testers will look at values of weapons such as heat, damage, range, and overall effectiveness and then give feedback to the developers as to if they find these values to be wrong.

This is because beta testers may not know how to code a game, but they are often good at playing them, coming up with builds that are outside the box, or just downright breaking things. Things that your developer may not be good at, because they may be able to make some mean code, but they may suck at the type of game they're making.

Edited by Rallog, 06 November 2012 - 09:05 AM.

[zorak ramone]

M4NTiC0R3X, on 06 November 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

PGI has openly stated that hardly any of the video game versions of Mech Warrior have been canonical, and while MWO:Mercs is similar to the TT rules... can only be 'so similar' due to game balancing.

It's not our fault you can't look that info up 'n accept it for what it is.

Purlana, on 06 November 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

If they don't care about TT, stop balancing the weapons around TT values?

There is no reason why PPCs, and Large lasers should generate so much heat if the heat system and DHS are not going to function per TT rules.

This and this. If they want to create their own system of weapons balance, then don't call it mechwarrior or battletech. Ditch the lore and make a balanced game. Call it "robotwarrior online" or something and call the mechs the "skullman" "Radical" "Mouseapult" and "Cannonshoulder."

Of course, they won't do that because the Mechwarrior/battletech name still has some value to it. However, if you're going use, then respect it. The idea that you can't translate CBT relative weapons balnce into a real-time game with MWO's mech and weapon mechanics is a big big myth.

[Scorm]

To those moaning about the DHS change just think about this, would you be more upset when they get nerfed later because they are op than you are now that they will come pre-nerfed and brought up if needed? The answer is that you would be the same amount of pissed that they aren't strictly using the tt rules either way. Almost every value in this game is subject to change for the sake of making a game that will have broad appeal, reasonably balanced play, and most importantly make money.

Edited by Scorm, 06 November 2012 - 09:09 AM.

[John Norad]

MrPenguin, on 06 November 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

Lots of assumptions.

Most of it comes down to common sense, math and gaming knowledge.
You don't have to produce a game to judge it. Otherwise every gaming site and every review out there would be useless, right?
And as a matter of fact I worked in game development and I can assure you, some things in MW:O are lacking. The horrible UI, for example. Of course there will be reasons for that. Money, time, deadlines, etc. But that doesn't make it less flawed.

[CeeKay Boques]

zorak ramone, on 06 November 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

This and this. If they want to create their own system of weapons balance, then don't call it mechwarrior or battletech. Ditch the lore and make a balanced game. Call it "robotwarrior online" or something and call the mechs the "skullman" "Radical" "Mouseapult" and "Cannonshoulder."

Of course, they won't do that because the Mechwarrior/battletech name still has some value to it. However, if you're going use, then respect it. The idea that you can't translate CBT relative weapons balnce into a real-time game with MWO's mech and weapon mechanics is a big big myth.

Fellow TTer, pointing at a table of numbers and saying "There, I translated them" while having no concept of what makes a video game fun, or considering any of the ramifications of when and how often it is fun to fire, and when its fun to dodge, or anything that has to do with playing a fun action game on the computer is EXACTLY why we keep having these long discussions.

Friends this is not supposed to be a visualization of the cinematics in your head when you move 7 Hexes and fire. Its not. Its better than that, and attempting to tie it to those memories limits MechWarrior, which can transcened our beloved table bound game. I'm sorry that your Awesome overheated. Perhaps if you only fired every 10 seconds, it would be a better simulator for you.

Edited by Technoviking, 06 November 2012 - 09:17 AM.

[Purlana]

Technoviking, on 06 November 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

Fellow TTer, pointing at a table of numbers and saying "There, I translated them" while having no concept of what makes a video game fun, or considering any of the ramifications of when and how often it is fun to fire, and when its fun to dodge, or anything that has to do with playing a fun action game on the computer is EXACTLY why we keep having these long discussions.

Friends this is not supposed to be a visualization of the cinematics in your head when you move 7 Hexes and fire. Its not. Its better than that, and attempting to tie it to those memories limits MechWarrior, which can transcened our beloved table bound game. I'm sorry that your Awesome overheated. Perhaps if you only fired every 10 seconds, it would be a better simulator for you.

Then why don't they fix the PPC and other useless weapons? If they are going to make the game fun and not follow TT values then go all out and blance the weapons.

Edited by Purlana, 06 November 2012 - 09:22 AM.

[MrPenguin]

Rallog, on 06 November 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

Wow you didn't come off sounding like you think we're all a bunch of morons that don't know how to put socks on in the morning.

Its probably best if I don't answer this.

Also, the rest of what you typed either didn't make much sense or has nothing to do with what I wrote. I was mostly referring to the guys who would make 5-10 minute mock ups or quick ideas and think its 200% better then whats in the game. And that they can simply just insert it into the code and it will work perfectly.

We both know its not that simple.

Also, a beta testers job is to indeed break the game. But its the devs job to figure out why it broke and how to prevent it from breaking. Not the beta testers. If the beta testers can fix what they broke then they may as well be the ones developing it.

So far, I've read nothing on the forums that could fix or add more balance. Well, nothing proven anyway. Doing math on it is one thing, actually implementing it is a entirely different beast all-together. You can't just say "Do this and it will work" with out actually doing it and proving its work. Thats why a concept is a concept and not excepted and proven truth.

Like, if people on this forum could PROVE that there ideas of balance and making the game better would actually improve balance and make the game better. Then I would be all for supporting these people. The problem is that none of them can prove it. Unless they have an development build and they're able to modify the game at will, then its simply an impossibility for them to test it.

Thats when the devs look at your ideas, try them out themselfs. If they find it doesn't work after a few attempts and a couple of modifications, it doesn't go any further then dev testing. If the idea actually proves to work outside of theory then it will probably stick into dev testing for a few revisions then make it into the public build for people to try out.

What most people are surprised to learn about is that devs usually do try there ideas if they show promise. You might not see most of whats suggested because its tested outside of your view. And they have no reason to tell you that there working on it because they can't guaranty that they won't scrap it after a few hours(if that).

Look, its just a fact that your game data is far more important and helpful to the devs then anything you type on this forum. I understand that the thought is depressing, but thats the reality of it.

But hey.... think of it this way! You get to play the game before it reaches its finished state. Thats kinda cool when you really think about it. Well, it used to feel a lot more special when beta's weren't so popular, but it still always manage to intrigue me anyway.

[Darkmoose]

Technoviking, on 06 November 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

Fellow TTer, pointing at a table of numbers and saying "There, I translated them" while having no concept of what makes a video game fun, or considering any of the ramifications of when and how often it is fun to fire, and when its fun to dodge, or anything that has to do with playing a fun action game on the computer is EXACTLY why we keep having these long discussions.

Friends this is not supposed to be a visualization of the cinematics in your head when you move 7 Hexes and fire. Its not. Its better than that, and attempting to tie it to those memories limits MechWarrior, which can transcened our beloved table bound game. I'm sorry that your Awesome overheated. Perhaps if you only fired every 10 seconds, it would be a better simulator for you.

The main difference is real time instead of 10 sec turns, and the fact that Heat is dissapated every second instead of 10 sec chunks. Works pretty good for my visualizations, but that is colored by 25 years of Battletech and every MW game ever made.

[MustrumRidcully]

Krivvan, on 06 November 2012 - 05:06 AM, said:

Doesn't the TT rely on BV in order to balance? Without that it's one of the most imbalanced tabletop games ever.

Later, yes. The original or at least early game, to my knowlege, didn't have it. It also didn'T have Double Heat Sinks, ER PPCs, pulse lasers, Gauss Rifles or the entire batch of CLan power creep.

The 3025 tech is mostly (but not perfectly) balanced without needing battle value. But when they introduced later tech levels and Clan tech, it probably became apparent quickly that while power creep supplements really sell great, ultimately it is not satisfying for tournaments and more elaborate mechanics were needed.

I leave it to a real Battletech player to correct me.

Either way - PGI didn't even get the 3025 tech right so far. (For which we don't need to compare PPC with Gauss Rifle, but PPC with AC/10...)

[Johnny Chimpo]

MrPenguin, on 06 November 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Wall of text....

shill (shl) Slang
n.
One who poses as a satisfied customer or an enthusiastic gambler to dupe bystanders into participating in a swindle.

v. shilled, shill·ing, shills

[CeeKay Boques]

Darkmoose, on 06 November 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

The main difference is real time instead of 10 sec turns, and the fact that Heat is dissapated every second instead of 10 sec chunks. Works pretty good for my visualizations, but that is colored by 25 years of Battletech and every MW game ever made.

Works ALL the way for me too, I really feel/see it. But I'm empthaizing with those that are maybe 90% TT and 10% MWPC, instead of 50/50ish. These are the same guys around the table going "hurumph hurumph I guess MW3 was ok, but forget the rest..." when we roll dice, or the "I don't have a graphics card, I don't like this anyway" on the BT forums. They're my peeps but...