89 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

malibu43, on 14 December 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

I'm on the fence about this one.

One the one hand, I can see why there should be some disincentive to completely trick out your mech with every upgrade imaginable. Even if the initial cost to buy the items is expensive, if there's no reason not to run them (DHS, ES, XL, Artemis) they will eventually become the norm as all players (both free and not free) eventually grind out enough CB to buy them. The higher repair/rearm costs possibly keep this from happening (the XL engine is the only one that has any disadvantage other than high repair/rearm costs). And of course there has to be incentives somewhere for people to actually spend money on the game.

On the other hand, it is frustrating to not be able to run "my favorite" build all the time. If I spend a butt ton of CB or MC on an XL Dragon, I want to be able to use it a lot. I don't one to run it every once in a while and run something less fun in between. In some cases, it also looks like some of the stock assaults can net you a loss if you're cored and don't win the match. Should you pay more for bringing more to the match? Maybe. But if one of the dev's goals was to "run the mech you want to run," this doesn't really meet that goal (depending on how you interpret that).

I bought MC a couple weeks ago and actually bought a Dragon with it (so I payed real money), but now I hear everywhere that a Dragon is useless without an XL (I don't know that that has necessarily been my experience so far). I have enough CB saved up for an XL now, but I'm having a hard time parting with 5M CB just to have a mech that loses money if my team loses. And winning/losing is something difficult to control if you PUG most of the time (which I do). And if this game is going to be successful, PUGGING has to be as well.

My 2 cents.

I can agree with you, but I'd have to ask, if you don't need that XL engine, why bother upgrading? Not to mention, a lot of people say a lot of builds don't work without... I've had my brother get reamed out by someone because he brought in an LRM based Commando (before ECM). Yet, guess who was still alive by the end of the match. What some people think works best only it's only good if it has, are just spouting sweage. Ignore them. Do what's best for you. A suggestion might be more helpful (like, have you tired an XL engine on your dragon?), but to tell someone that it doesn't work isn't right either.

Basically, a lot of people could make a lot of their mech builds run just as well with a lot less of the expensive perks. Sure, you might not be able to squeeze on that 6th meduim laser, but it's not going to kill you t do 5. 5 Would actually help your heat problems without suddenly needing those expensive to repair double heatsinks. Suddenly, you have a cheaper mech and it only cost you a meduim laser. (I'm exaderating, but I think the point still has merit.)

It's a careful balance is all. Just consider pay offs to possible penalties. A lot of mechs in Battletech are the way they are not because of poor design, but because they where cheap to make, and cheap to replace/refit/repair. The game is just reflecting this in it's own way.

[Fate 6]

malibu43, on 14 December 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

I'm on the fence about this one.

One the one hand, I can see why there should be some disincentive to completely trick out your mech with every upgrade imaginable. Even if the initial cost to buy the items is expensive, if there's no reason not to run them (DHS, ES, XL, Artemis) they will eventually become the norm as all players (both free and not free) eventually grind out enough CB to buy them. The higher repair/rearm costs possibly keep this from happening (the XL engine is the only one that has any disadvantage other than high repair/rearm costs). And of course there has to be incentives somewhere for people to actually spend money on the game.

On the other hand, it is frustrating to not be able to run "my favorite" build all the time. If I spend a butt ton of CB or MC on an XL Dragon, I want to be able to use it a lot. I don't one to run it every once in a while and run something less fun in between. In some cases, it also looks like some of the stock assaults can net you a loss if you're cored and don't win the match. Should you pay more for bringing more to the match? Maybe. But if one of the dev's goals was to "run the mech you want to run," this doesn't really meet that goal (depending on how you interpret that).

I bought MC a couple weeks ago and actually bought a Dragon with it (so I payed real money), but now I hear everywhere that a Dragon is useless without an XL (I don't know that that has necessarily been my experience so far). I have enough CB saved up for an XL now, but I'm having a hard time parting with 5M CB just to have a mech that loses money if my team loses. And winning/losing is something difficult to control if you PUG most of the time (which I do). And if this game is going to be successful, PUGGING has to be as well.

My 2 cents.

There are always disadvantages:
ES and FF take up 14 slots. That's a lot of slots.
Artemis takes up slots and weighs more.
DHS takes up 3 slots per heat sink.
XL engine takes up more slots and increases your risk of dying significantly.

Everything has a built-in tradeoff already. The gameplay should not be affected by the cost of repairs. Period. You should want to minimize damage to youself because living means you have a better chance of winning.

[Fate 6]

Tesunie, on 14 December 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

I can agree with you, but I'd have to ask, if you don't need that XL engine, why bother upgrading? Not to mention, a lot of people say a lot of builds don't work without... I've had my brother get reamed out by someone because he brought in an LRM based Commando (before ECM). Yet, guess who was still alive by the end of the match. What some people think works best only it's only good if it has, are just spouting sweage. Ignore them. Do what's best for you. A suggestion might be more helpful (like, have you tired an XL engine on your dragon?), but to tell someone that it doesn't work isn't right either.

Basically, a lot of people could make a lot of their mech builds run just as well with a lot less of the expensive perks. Sure, you might not be able to squeeze on that 6th meduim laser, but it's not going to kill you t do 5. 5 Would actually help your heat problems without suddenly needing those expensive to repair double heatsinks. Suddenly, you have a cheaper mech and it only cost you a meduim laser. (I'm exaderating, but I think the point still has merit.)

It's a careful balance is all. Just consider pay offs to possible penalties. A lot of mechs in Battletech are the way they are not because of poor design, but because they where cheap to make, and cheap to replace/refit/repair. The game is just reflecting this in it's own way.

If I wanted to drop a medium laser from my 4SP, I might as well run a Jenner-D. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at that point the Jenner is vastly superior because it has the same firepower but can run twice as fast.

Sorry, I'll keep my 5th laser and my DHS. I want to play that way. It sucks that I have to lose profits as a result though, and nobody can say it doesn't.

Edited by Fate 6, 14 December 2012 - 01:56 PM.

[Lanessar]

Per PCG quotes:

Next week’s patch will also address my biggest MWO annoyance: the quiet scourge of AFK players. Inoye says that “AFK players will now be earning little to no C-Bills/XP per game. The large rewards for winning or losing have been removed and only a fraction of what was there before will be rewarded at match end.” Take that, you lazy goons.

I'm going to presume that the rewards for cap, spotting, components etc. are going to be increased commensurately, to make up for the reduction in the "base award".

Edited by Lanessar, 14 December 2012 - 01:59 PM.

[Atayu]

The shocking truth!!!
Expensive upgraded mechs cost allot to repair rearm.
Cheap mechs cost very little to repair and rearm.
Each upgrade you put on a mech makes it cost more to repair.
The more damage you take the more it cost to repair.
If you want to run a high end mech with upgrades do not expect to be swimming in Cbills.
If your mech you want to common drop in is lossing cbills learn to drive it better or make it cheaper.

[Ricama]

Lanessar, on 14 December 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Per PCG quotes:

Next week’s patch will also address my biggest MWO annoyance: the quiet scourge of AFK players. Inoye says that “AFK players will now be earning little to no C-Bills/XP per game. The large rewards for winning or losing have been removed and only a fraction of what was there before will be rewarded at match end.” Take that, you lazy goons.

I'm going to presume that the rewards for cap, spotting, components etc. are going to be increased commensurately, to make up for the reduction in the "base award".

I would not personally make that assumption, it would be more of a hope.

[Franchi]

nom de guerre, on 14 December 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

yep I've run srm and lrm cats and with them the key to making $ is winning more than you lose.

Roger that, I just accept the repair costs as the price i pay fro running a brutal killing machine.

[Fate 6]

Atayu, on 14 December 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

The shocking truth!!!
Expensive upgraded mechs cost allot to repair rearm.
Cheap mechs cost very little to repair and rearm.
Each upgrade you put on a mech makes it cost more to repair.
The more damage you take the more it cost to repair.
If you want to run a high end mech with upgrades do not expect to be swimming in Cbills.
If your mech you want to common drop in is lossing cbills learn to drive it better or make it cheaper.

You literally said nothing but regurgitated what currently happens in the game. We're trying to have an actual discussion here, so please get out unless you have something actually useful to say.

Edited by Fate 6, 14 December 2012 - 02:37 PM.

[malibu43]

Tesunie, on 14 December 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

I can agree with you, but I'd have to ask, if you don't need that XL engine, why bother upgrading? Not to mention, a lot of people say a lot of builds don't work without... I've had my brother get reamed out by someone because he brought in an LRM based Commando (before ECM). Yet, guess who was still alive by the end of the match. What some people think works best only it's only good if it has, are just spouting sweage. Ignore them. Do what's best for you. A suggestion might be more helpful (like, have you tired an XL engine on your dragon?), but to tell someone that it doesn't work isn't right either. Basically, a lot of people could make a lot of their mech builds run just as well with a lot less of the expensive perks. Sure, you might not be able to squeeze on that 6th meduim laser, but it's not going to kill you t do 5. 5 Would actually help your heat problems without suddenly needing those expensive to repair double heatsinks. Suddenly, you have a cheaper mech and it only cost you a meduim laser. (I'm exaderating, but I think the point still has merit.) It's a careful balance is all. Just consider pay offs to possible penalties. A lot of mechs in Battletech are the way they are not because of poor design, but because they where cheap to make, and cheap to replace/refit/repair. The game is just reflecting this in it's own way.

Yes, after thinking through the repair costs, I am definitely questioning if I "need" an XL engine. After some initial trouble (and working out a new strategy), I'm now seeing ~300 damage/match on average and starting to get some kills with my STD Dragon. The XL would only make that better, since I could swap out two of my four MLAS for LLAS. But as the game stands now, the additional damage I deal out each game wouldn't make up for a loss in terms of CB. So I am definitely rethinking the XL engine thing...

Fate 6, on 14 December 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

There are always disadvantages: ES and FF take up 14 slots. That's a lot of slots. Artemis takes up slots and weighs more. DHS takes up 3 slots per heat sink. XL engine takes up more slots and increases your risk of dying significantly. Everything has a built-in tradeoff already. The gameplay should not be affected by the cost of repairs. Period. You should want to minimize damage to youself because living means you have a better chance of winning.

True. Very good points.

[Tesunie]

If I own a mach truck, and I totally crush it, but want to pay to fix it up again, should it cost me the same to repair as it would a small compact car? (Compact as in, not crushed to the size of a can! Bad joke! BAD!) There is just more to fix. The game shows that is all.

If I want to order a car with special ground flarings, and they happened to get ripped off, should it be free to repair this speical item I added onto my own car, because I had to pay more for it and it takes up extra space (as well as makes it more prone to damage such as grounding out)?

If I have a car with a built into the body spoiler to help with speed and aerodynamics, and it gets hit by something and I have to fix it, should it cost me the same to fix as if it wasn't there?

The game follows a fairly basic, and realistic, flair when it comes to repair costs. If anything, what would be more fair is to treat a team, even a pug team, as a merc group. A merc group might have it set up for each mechwarrior would get this much pay, all the same. They might get increase to pay for rank, but probably not for mech size. Or, they might (what I'm about to suggest) pool their profits after a match, repair all mechs from the pool, and then evenly distribute the c-bills around on whatever is left.

In lore (at least from the books), owning a mech was expensive. Most people couldn't even afford one. If they had one, most had it because it's been in the family for generations. The exceptions would be if you were part of a very large merc group, which could soak up some of the costs and got direct contracts with larger (and rich) houses/governments to do jobs. A lone wolf merc (what we all are) normally barely made ends meet, if he even did sometimes.

I know it's a game, but I feel that the realistic approach to things kinda helps it out. And seen as we can own more than one mech with relative ease, as well as have access to the trial mechs... we have it a lot easier than a lot of the other mercs did in the books.

For the record, I'm getting tired of people complaining. They complain about ECM (I understand that). They complain about Lag Sheild (I understand that). They complain about camo color options (get over it). They complain that net code is bad (they are fixing this). They complain that the Stalker is coming out instead of (Instert mech name here), their personal favorite mech. They complain... They complain... They complain... Take it as the game it is. If you have an issue with something, make a remark in a thread. Discuss it. But when a lot of other people are explaining why it's like that to you (like Endo-steel is extreamly hard, rare and is lost tech which makes fixing it expensive and hard), don't bash them.

Atayu, on 14 December 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

The shocking truth!!!
Expensive upgraded mechs cost allot to repair rearm.
Cheap mechs cost very little to repair and rearm.
Each upgrade you put on a mech makes it cost more to repair.
The more damage you take the more it cost to repair.
If you want to run a high end mech with upgrades do not expect to be swimming in Cbills.
If your mech you want to common drop in is lossing cbills learn to drive it better or make it cheaper.

Fate 6, on 14 December 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

You literally said nothing but regurgitated what currently happens in the game. We're trying to have an actual discussion here, so please get out unless you have something actually useful to say.

That's what I'm talking about. Sure, he was short and concise with his remarks. He didn't explain it out. But he's right. You saying what you did (and this goes to anyone who does this) is deeply in the wrong. He did have something useful to say. He's saying what us "fans" of Battletech, Table top, Mechwarrior and book readers are telling you. By all acounts, I don't even know if we should have Endo-steel and FF armor. They'd be so rare to find, it'd be almost impossible. Yet, in this game, almost everyone runs with then. Why? They are better than Standard. You want better than Standard? Pay for it. Old Inner Sphere tech wasn't as good as Clan tech. Clan XL Engines only have two crits in the side torso, so they can loose a side and keep going (from what I know from Mechwarrior 2). All their mechs come with Endo-steel (they didn't mess around) and it probably takes even less criticals.

Would you prefer a different alternative? Seen as Endo-steel, FFA, DHS, and the like was reserved for only the highest ranking officers or royalty, would you prefer that they all be removed from the game instead? Then, you wouldn't have to worry about it and have the same tech that any other basic inner sphere merc/mechwarrior had avalibile? If that was done, then we'd have tons of people complaining about that (and I'd understand it too). But you get the point, right? It's an extra. It gives you a huge advantage (if used right) over your opponents who don't have it. It should cost a lot. It's not common, but in the game it's super common. Almost everyone runs with it. Why? It's effective. But you have to pay more for it.

Another look on it if you still aren't getting it. That cost you pay once... you get armor ruined. Have to replace it. Lets just say you got stripped. That cost you payed before hand to switch your armor to FF. Recall it? Now you have to pay it. Again. You have to buy all new plates of FF. Endo steel? Recall that price? You have to rework the frame on half your torso. You have to pay half that price you originally paid to convert it to Endo-steel back into it in replacement parts alone. That XL Engine? Got completely ruined? Have to buy a new one to replace the wrecked one. Same price as before. If anything, they are being rather nice with the cost of repairs. How would you like to pay 4,000,000 to replace that wrecked XL engine you placed in your mech when it got shreaded? Looking at it from another view, that engine as a standard would only cost a mear 1,000,000 c-bills. Parts are easier to come by. And parts are cheaper to get and afford.

Personally, I'd take the lower repairs we have now compaired to what it could be. I'd rather not have to rebuy my whole mech just because I go wrecked in the match. Well, there's 4,000,000 C-bills for a 75,000 reward... (And I've had matches where all I had left by the end was one leg, and my cockpit after people were done with me. I think that would mean, total replacement needed. It's molten slag. Instead of costing me 4,000,000 to replace the mech, it only cost me, what? 70,000? Less? More?)

[Chrithu]

Yes they can be hefty. But seriously: You really want to say that because of the repair bill you prefer playing trials????

LIAR!!!!!

[One Medic Army]

The repair bills are the one area where MWO might be leaning towards P2W.
With premium I would be able to run several of my mechs (which I only play occasionally due to the repair bills that range up past 115k) more often. I would come out even on a loss, and make a reasonable amount on a win.
Currently I'm just running around in a Hunch P most games.

[Sifright]

siLve00, on 06 November 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

uhm actual... the rep costs are fine.. and ammo costs too.
its perfect... ( if they take back in missle damage .. i miss those cbills )

its just not true that you dont earn cbills.. you can do it right now with every mech.

Sigh ignorant posts are rather aggravating.

[malibu43]

Tesunie, on 14 December 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

If I own a mach truck, and I totally crush it, but want to pay to fix it up again, should it cost me the same to repair as it would a small compact car? (Compact as in, not crushed to the size of a can! Bad joke! BAD!) There is just more to fix. The game shows that is all.

If I want to order a car with special ground flarings, and they happened to get ripped off, should it be free to repair this speical item I added onto my own car, because I had to pay more for it and it takes up extra space (as well as makes it more prone to damage such as grounding out)?

If I have a car with a built into the body spoiler to help with speed and aerodynamics, and it gets hit by something and I have to fix it, should it cost me the same to fix as if it wasn't there?

The game follows a fairly basic, and realistic, flair when it comes to repair costs. ...

While I understand and to some extent agree with what your point is, I cannot help but point out...

Following that logic, one could also argue that if your cockpit or center torso are destroyed the game should be wiped from your computer, your account deleted, and you be permanantly banned from playing again because you, as a pilot, are dead. That is, afterall, how it would be in real life (and by real life, I mean the real life that includes giant, walking, laser shooting robots...).

There are certain aspects of real life that people don't want to simulate. No one wants to spend 10's of thousands of dollars and 100+ hours learning to fly before they hop in a flight simulator, and then die when they crash or get shot down. No one wants to bleed to death if they get shot playing ARMA. No on wants to actually flip over in their gaming chair and break their neck and spend months is rehab because they rolled their car in Forza.

Some aspects of real life are fun to simulate, and some are not. If losing money needs to be a part of this game for balance reasons, then that might be OK. But it shouldn't be simulated just because it's more realistic if it doesn't add any fun factor to the game.

That being said, maybe the intent is that $$$ management part of it is supposed to be part of the game. That's cool as long as people enjoy it. If no one enjoys it, then get rid of it. Like I said, I'm still on the fence about the repair/rearm costs as they are...

Edited by malibu43, 14 December 2012 - 04:23 PM.

[Tesunie]

I'm going from a simulation perspective. I don't suggest you should have your account deleted because "you as a pilot might have died". You could also look at it as, another pilot stepped into the mech/inherited things and you continue play as this mysterious other person...?

My point more so is, if you paid 4,000,000 for that XL Engine, then in a more realistic sense it should be costing you up to 4,000,000 to repair or replace that engine. It doesn't, so the game already reduces your repair costs.

Your post, but the way, made me laugh. You have a very valid point, driven to the extream sense of the perspective. I'm just saying, maybe paying for those extras isn't a bad thing, even in game. I'm having fun either way and haven't experiences this problem yet myself. Maybe after I get the Stalker I'll start to see what they mean, but I'd be more hoping that my damage c-bill bonus will make up for any extra repair bills from being an assault. If need be, I drive the Cicada for a bit... Don't know. Either that, or I just take the C-bill looses when they happen and go on.

Wanted to add, that just because it isn't fun to lose some c-bills, if everyone started to drown in c-bills (taking from the other side), then the game would have no challange for saving for new items, and would be just as boring. Just another perpective.

[Sifright]

Tesunie, on 14 December 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

I'm going from a simulation perspective. I don't suggest you should have your account deleted because "you as a pilot might have died". You could also look at it as, another pilot stepped into the mech/inherited things and you continue play as this mysterious other person...?

My point more so is, if you paid 4,000,000 for that XL Engine, then in a more realistic sense it should be costing you up to 4,000,000 to repair or replace that engine. It doesn't, so the game already reduces your repair costs.

Your post, but the way, made me laugh. You have a very valid point, driven to the extream sense of the perspective. I'm just saying, maybe paying for those extras isn't a bad thing, even in game. I'm having fun either way and haven't experiences this problem yet myself. Maybe after I get the Stalker I'll start to see what they mean, but I'd be more hoping that my damage c-bill bonus will make up for any extra repair bills from being an assault. If need be, I drive the Cicada for a bit... Don't know. Either that, or I just take the C-bill looses when they happen and go on.

Wanted to add, that just because it isn't fun to lose some c-bills, if everyone started to drown in c-bills (taking from the other side), then the game would have no challange for saving for new items, and would be just as boring. Just another perpective.

the only people that this will ever happen to are those that splash out on MC and buy lots of mech bays.

Otherwise every one else is only getting 10% of the value of the mech they are selling so they can try new variants or chassises out, this eats a shitload of C-bills over time.

So your worry about drowning in cash isn't warranted.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Bluten, on 06 November 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

The rewards don't scale well. Part of the problem is that repairs scale with Mech weight and equipment used while rewards don't scale at all. Why does an Atlas pilot get paid as much as a Jenner? If you brought a bigger Mech, you should naturally get paid more, especially when you have to pay more yourself for repairing it. They need to scale rewards with Mech weight and equipment used; not just have a flat system. If repairs scale according to what you brought to the field... so should rewards.

the economy isn't soooo bad i mean you worry about cbills that's what the trials are there for. even so i think this is far more in keeping with a solution as the mw2 merc game would pay more for bigger equipment you brought into battle. it makes a lot of sense and i'm sure it would offset the grievences between those running lights and assaults.

i just have a suspicion that too many people want easy mode in game and in mech lab.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 14 December 2012 - 04:37 PM.

[malibu43]

Tesunie, on 14 December 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

...Your post, but the way, made me laugh. ...

Good. That was the whole point.

[King Arthur IV]

but i seem to make less with trail mechs. if your mech isnt insane to rearm/repair, then i feel like it comes out alil ahead if you use your own mech. if you use ff armor your repair can easily hit 80k. also i read somewhere the bigger the mech the bigger the bill.

play mechs that only use laser to grind cbills! RnR on average is under 25k. every now and then ill get a odd ball and get a 40k RnR but its not often.

anyway i think you should take a good look at the win/lose income from trails its so little. ~50k for lose, ~80k for win and if you own your own its like ~75k for lose and ~120 for win.

[Kahoumono]

I only run lights and mediums so I don't have any complaints. I think its part of the fun to grind it out.