64 replies to this topic

[PYR0MANCER]

If this is the way it's meant to be then so be it, but a heads up as to the drastic change in gameplay would have been nice yes... Or something in the final patch release notes stating so, if you wanted it to be a surprise until the last minute...

I'm surprised...

No really.... I am...

But also willing to adapt if this is the way it's supposed to be... Which from reading this thread, seems to be the so far official response... A hard thing to do with the current state of things (4/team, smallish maps, not all items implemented yet, etc...)

Settle in and let it settle in people... I know it hurts... I run a RVN-3L... I have felt the pain...

But things might just be working as intended at the moment... I'm just saying... If it's broken well, another patch in two weeks right...............

[Hesketh Vernon Hesketh Prichard]

Tyros the Pyromancer, on 06 November 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

If this is the way it's meant to be then so be it, but a heads up as to the drastic change in gameplay would have been nice yes... Or something in the final patch release notes stating so, if you wanted it to be a surprise until the last minute...

I'm surprised...

No really.... I am...

But also willing to adapt if this is the way it's supposed to be... Which from reading this thread, seems to be the so far official response... A hard thing to do with the current state of things (4/team, smallish maps, not all items implemented yet, etc...)

Settle in and let it settle in people... I know it hurts... I run a RVN-3L... I have felt the pain...

But things might just be working as intended at the moment... I'm just saying... If it's broken well, another patch in two weeks right...............

Living in hope is for fools!

[Mr 144]

daemur, on 06 November 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

As an aside, I almost always pilot a light and LRM's with Artemis hurt, especially when you haven't farmed the Cbills for the biggest XL they can carry.

We know they do Not all of us non-light pilots have the option to increase our lag-shield..at least you CAN "upgrade", but for the rest of the weight classes, Tier II Tech is refered to as side-grading...and WAI

Mr 144

Edited by Mr 144, 06 November 2012 - 10:17 PM.

[Draco Argentum]

daemur, on 06 November 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

Really? You should try it, lots of us think it's fun.

You honestly think the new player experience is fun? I can forgive bugs and balance issues but the NPE is just horrible. I tested it in closed beta, gave feedback that it was bad and then bought founders. I got the founders refunded because of the, ongoing, YLW fiasco so now I'd have to put up with the NPE for four hours to get a Jenner. No thanks, fix the NPE and I'll be able to tell my friends to give the game a go.

[GeneralArmchair]

The paper doll explanation is easy to test. Just enter some matches with 0 torso armor. If you pop instantly, then the paper doll hypothesis is trash.

I only had time for one match tonight to test this with my founders Cat, but for once no one targeted me. The only fire I took was a single MBL sweep at extreme range. It wasn't even aimed it me, it was aimed at the atlas in front of me and a fraction of the beam grazed onto me.

Test result from one run: I survived a negligible amount of damage to my right torso (nothing but heat sinks, an AMS, and a MBL there).

It will take more runs to gather enough information to be worthwhile.

Edited by GeneralArmchair, 06 November 2012 - 11:02 PM.

[ian davion]

Well, I am glad someone is thinking with their head on straight . I am very interested in what you find out GeneralArmchair.

[EternalCore]

QuantumButler, on 06 November 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

So yeah, we here at Kong have determined that any damage taken to a section that has lost armor, even a single machinegun bullet, will kill that section instantly, this is very very 'fun' if your CT is stripped

Internals effectively have 1 HP now, this more or less makes the game unplayable, hopefully it will be hotfixed soon but I expect it to take a week or longer because I have no faith in PGI.

Read this:

EternalCore, on 06 November 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

It's broken..... As of PATCH 1.0.142(Nov. 6th 2012)

To Elaborate I was in my Founder Atlas AS7-D(F) mech Which has Max Armor and Endo-Steel Structure And I got taken out like there was no armor as all my armor was neutral color(from when you start) And All my Structure was red and I died in like 3 hits....

[Krivvan]

On my end it's not a single shot that kills you, it's just internals being much weaker. I still have to put in several rounds of lasers into an internal to kill it.

[Joehunk]

daemur, on 06 November 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

You are referring to the critical hit system, which as long as you are losing your weapons after armor has been removed, is working as intended. Each weapon occupies a critical slot(s) that may be hit when shot after the mech has lost its armor.

You are misreading me. I know how the critical hit system works. If armor is gone and you take a hit to a location, it might critically hit a component. That component will then be destroyed if it loses all its HP. This has worked for as long as the critical hit system has been in place.

What is happening now is that when you take any hit to the internal structure of a slot, ALL COMPONENTS in that slot are instantly destroyed, simultaneously, from one hit. Surely this is not intended?

GeneralArmchair, on 06 November 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

Test result from one run: I survived a negligible amount of damage to my right torso (nothing but heat sinks, an AMS, and a MBL there).

Your mech was not destroyed, but was the AMS and MBL (I assume you meant MPL?)

[Dead3ye]

Yep this has happened to me a ton earlier. I had full health on my Awesomes CT except for the fact it had its armor stripped. A jenner runs up and instantly drops me with a single medium laser on volley fire and the CT doesn't even appear destroyed, just red in the screenshots. Happened plenty since. Needs a hotfix.

[Comassion]

GeneralArmchair, on 06 November 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

The paper doll explanation is easy to test. Just enter some matches with 0 torso armor. If you pop instantly, then the paper doll hypothesis is trash.

This is a great idea - guys, even though you'll be in naked 'mechs and die, please do this. It's worth it to see if this is a paper doll bug or a low internals / high crit chance bug.

[Orzorn]

Comassion, on 07 November 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

This is a great idea - guys, even though you'll be in naked 'mechs and die, please do this. It's worth it to see if this is a paper doll bug or a low internals / high crit chance bug.

If you had allies willing to help you out, it would be even easier.

I'll try to get the Remnant to help me out tonight and test this issue.

[Comassion]

Orzorn, on 07 November 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

If you had allies willing to help you out, it would be even easier.

I'll try to get the Remnant to help me out tonight and test this issue.

Same with BWC for me. I'll also try to figure out if it's simply low internals or a critical hit thing (have someone shoot my unarmored 'mech with an LBX-10).

[Mawai]

Leetskeet, on 06 November 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

This happens once every two games or so.


Am I looking at engine crits being stealth implemented, or is this a horrible, horrible bug?
(Also enjoy the blurry *** mechs with after-image shades even though I have motion blur off.)

Could the issue be the fix to engine heat sinks?

If ALL heat sinks on the mech were somehow associated with the engine then the destruction of 3 standard heat sinks (possibily one double depending on how it was implemented) could result in the engine being destroyed while the paper doll actually shows remaining internal structure. I have no idea how the engine heat sink fix might have been implemented but I could see a bug like this getting put in by accident and having unintended side effects that match what people are seeing ... on the other hand it could be a paper doll update issue though why that would surface at this point unless due to their netcode changes I don't know ...

[Orzorn]

Mawai, on 07 November 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

Could the issue be the fix to engine heat sinks?

If ALL heat sinks on the mech were somehow associated with the engine then the destruction of 3 standard heat sinks (possibily one double depending on how it was implemented) could result in the engine being destroyed while the paper doll actually shows remaining internal structure. I have no idea how the engine heat sink fix might have been implemented but I could see a bug like this getting put in by accident and having unintended side effects that match what people are seeing ... on the other hand it could be a paper doll update issue though why that would surface at this point unless due to their netcode changes I don't know ...

The best way to test this, then, would be to have on torso filled with your engine heat sinks, and then one torso filled with nothing at all. Have someone fire at the empty location until it is destroyed, then switch to the full location and fire until it too is destroyed. Use an AC/10 because it does exactly the required amount to destroy an item in one hit. If a single AC/10 shot to the full torso kills the mech, then the heat sinks are bugged.

Edited by Orzorn, 07 November 2012 - 09:13 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Here is what is happening to me. As soon as I lose the armor in my 'mechs Center Torso, the next shot obliterates it, both in the damage diagram and in the actual game. The 'mech falls over with it's arms, head, side torsos, and legs attached to nothing, although they remain located as if the CT was still holding them in place. I'll try to get a screenshot.

Other than that I have had my weapons stripped from my 'mech by LRMs in two seconds of impacts, even though my 'mechs armor is just yellow.

I have to laugh again that you nerf the very weak SSRMs in the same patch that you make LRMs the missiles of insta-death.

Also, I am speculating that the reason you could kill the Atlas in 1.4 seconds is the Internal Structure bug and nothing to do with DHS 2.0. Is that possible?

Edited by Lightfoot, 07 November 2012 - 09:21 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

SpiralRazor, on 06 November 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

I'm not a designer, but I will say that DHS at 2.0 heat allowed me to core a fully armoured Atlas from behind in roughly 3 seconds. In my Jenner. Keep in mind that the 1.4 times boost isn't just to cooling DOWN, it's a boost to heat THRESHOLD as well.

This was shades of the SL Jenner of F+F beta past, and we reacted to it quickly, because well, we'd already seen what happens.


And remember everyone - we're still open beta, so weapon changes will still occur."




Tell ya what Garth....no one believes you. Let us test it for 2 days and the community will get back to you. You know, the side of the equation that can actually do math.

If they let us test it we might prove their internal testing is usless...

[Mister Blastman]

daemur, on 06 November 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

Your Cat should have 18 armor and 15 points of internal structure in the head, so assuming all of the missiles (from an LRM15) landed on your face you should take 30 damage. This would nearly kill you, but be very unlikely to occur due to the spread of the LRM volley.

Okay. I'll play. Daemur, then explain to me for a solid hour and a half when two of my teammates were missile boating, I'd call targets and they'd go from alive to dead in almost a split second? Every single time, also, it would be due to a headshot and the mechs would fall over with their head area missing?

Haha. Spread? What spread?

[GeneralArmchair]

Joehunk, on 07 November 2012 - 06:06 AM, said:

Your mech was not destroyed, but was the AMS and MBL (I assume you meant MPL?)

I do not recall if the AMS was disabled.

The MBL(medium beam laser.) was intact. I've tried taking MPL for improved damage output, but MBL's are in my opinion better for the c1 because of the reduced weight and lower heat per shot. The MPL has a higher rate of fire, but I find that most mechs don't have the heat dissipation to maintain that rate of fire for any meaningful period of time.

Another thing to consider is that I've also padded that section with heat sinks to protect my AMS from crits.

The laser blast that struck me was also just stray fire meant for an Atlas that hit me at extreme range (at least 600m)


Honestly I was surprised my mech didn't take any fire. I wasn't missile camping, I just marched towards the base with my team firing LRMs as I went. It must've had something to do with all the trial atlases looking like significantly more important targets than me.


Unfortunately that was my last run of the evening, and college should keep me busy until they finally get this problem sorted out (I hope......).

From that run, my section did not explode from negligible damage. So I guess that's a point in favor of the paper doll, but I took less than 5 damage that round. I suppose internals won't pop from a single hit, but for all I know internals have 70% fewer hitpoints and I didn't notice it because I effectively took no damage.

I've seen some of the work that the clans around here have done to reverse engineer information that the devs have chosen to keep obscured from us. They're testing seems to be pointing to mechs popping immediately after losing armor, but that could potentially be explained by an outdated paper-doll. I felt that I could assist their more substantial testing efforts by pointing out that the easiest way to test the robustness of internals is to join a match with no armor.

[Odins Fist]

QuantumButler, on 06 November 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

So yeah, we here at Kong have determined that any damage taken to a section that has lost armor, even a single machinegun bullet, will kill that section instantly, this is very very 'fun' if your CT is stripped

Internals effectively have 1 HP now, this more or less makes the game unplayable, hopefully it will be hotfixed soon but I expect it to take a week or longer because I have no faith in PGI.

.
YUP..!!
.
Noticed this last night.... Thought my Atlas was made of paper at first, then I paid attention.....