201 replies to this topic

[Qman]

Thank you for taking the time to respond to the communities questions. Have a sugar cube

[pursang]

Quote

Can we set up weapon groups in the mech-lab & save them for that particular variant, or do we have to manually assign weapons to groups at the start of each battle?" please? Thank you in advance. -Soviet Alex/pursing

Pursing? Really? Gee, thanks guys!

Edited by pursang, 18 April 2012 - 01:02 PM.

[Hayashi]

GaussDragon, on 18 April 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

Your acronym is lost on me... what's "MLAS"?

Sorry!

LLAS - Large Laser
MLAS - Medium Laser
LPLAS - Large Pulse Laser
SPLAS - Small Pulse Laser
PPC - Particle Projection Cannon
AC/X - Autocannon/X
LBXAC/X - Lubalin Ballistics Autocannon/X
SRM-X - Short Ranged Missile-X
LRM-X - Long Ranged Missile-X
t - ton
s - critical slot
boat - A 'Mech holding weapons of only one type.

[Sprouticus]

Hayashi, on 18 April 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

I based that assumption on the MWO model having to be able to create all canon variants because of that very issue you mentioned of some variants being superior by way of having more hardpoints, if the MWO model were to allow different variants for 'Mechs to carry different types of hardpoints. The AWS-11M with its 8 LPPCs was the basis for the theoretical max of 8 energy hardpoints, and the 8R/T/9M variants the basis behind a theoretical maximum of 2 missile hardpoints.

Having this clear superiority of variants would go against the principle of balance they've introduced very early on in the development of the game, essentially allowing people with more C-Bills or with a real money option to purchase additional firepower capabilities that would cause the other variants to become outclassed in every way.

However I agree with you that it's an assumption, and if possible it would be nice if the devs confirm whether hardpoints are variant based or 'Mech based... and if variant based, whether certain variants would be purchasable only with real cash.

I based my assumption on previous statements regarding variants being in the game and the fact that you have to differentiate those variants somehow (since engines and internals can be modified, hardpoints are the only remaining factor that could be different)

I do agree that some variants will be OP superior to others. They could address this by for instance giving the 8V an extra Energy HP or an extra missle HP (or both, but if thats the case why bother with the 8T or 8R. They could combine all 3 of those into 1 variant (sort of a hybrid of what you and I are assuming) I suppose. But that would mean leveling 3 variants that are exactly the same (or close). And Im sure other mechs will be even MORE lopsided and difficult to balance

However, if they limit the engine, internals, and electronics to specific models, the variants really are different in most cases. Sure in some one variant will still be superior. But you may have to decide whether you want that electronics package available at the expense of the mech having an XL engine or a less optimal hardpoint setup.

Edited by Sprouticus, 18 April 2012 - 01:08 PM.

[Hollister]

I wonder if we will be able to chain fire different weapon groups to manage heat and ammo a little more. Unlike IIRC in MW4 it would cycle through all the weapons.

So I could have 3 MLAS and chain fire them, and shoot my other weapons when i so desire.

Another thing, since jump jets take up critical space they would have a chance to be destoryed. So what would happen if a JJ was destroyed in one leg and not the other and you hit the botton to Jump? Would the mech go flying off wildly or would jumping be disabled.

[Hayashi]

Sprouticus, on 18 April 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

I based my assumption on previous statements regarding variants being in the game and the fact that you have to differentiate those variants somehow (since engines and internals can be modified, hardpoints are the only remaining factor that could be different)

I do agree that some variants will be OP. They could address this by forinstance giving the 8V an extra Energy HP or an extra missle HP (or both, but if thats the case why bother with the 8T or 8R. They could combine all 3 of those into 1 variant (sort of a hybrid of what you and I are assuming) I suppose. But that would mean leveling 3 variants that are exactly the same (or close). And Im sure other mechs will be even MORE lopsided and difficult to balance

However, if they limit the engine, internals, and electronics to specific models, the variants really are diffient in most cases. Sure in some one variant will still be superior. But you may have to decide whether you want that electronics package available at the expense of the mech having an XL engine or a less optimal hardpoint setup.

I had that grand vision of all 'Mechs only having one hardpoint configuration each, so that if you wanted to mount a combination not available you'd have to choose a different 'Mech. Short ranged + fast recharge weapons which converge faster would do better in the arms, and long ranged/slow recharge weapons which need more space, and which will gimball less making them more accurate when firing straight ahead would do better in the side torsos. So the hardpoint allocation in total, as well as specifically the hardpoint location per body slot, would determine the general use to which players put the 'Mech, when considering multiple 'Mechs of a similar weight class.

And variants would simply be different default ways of using the same default hardpoints... and different default variants are purchasable by different Houses/their affliated Merc Groups. When you buy the variants off the factory they'd come preloaded with their default weaponry, and customisation would be freaking expensive so that while it's possible to customise your dream loadout from any starting variant of the 'Mech, it'd be cheaper to start with the official variant that's already most similar to the one you're currently thinking of. The cost of customisation would give the House armies character, since players will in general follow the default variant of their region more closely.

But of course there isn't actually any dev confirmation yet, so it's still complete speculation.

==

The only really confirmed things as of this point are that:

1. Criticals and hardpoints are different
2. Hardpoints are weapon type based, criticals don't care, and can hold equipment and ammo as well
3. Hardpoints vary by 'Mech and location on a 'Mech
4. Hardpoints will be sufficient to carry default configuration but may have spares

And what I'd really need to know is

1. Whether variants use the same hardpoints in a different way or have completely different hardpoints.

[Hayashi]

Hollister, on 18 April 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

I wonder if we will be able to chain fire different weapon groups to manage heat and ammo a little more. Unlike IIRC in MW4 it would cycle through all the weapons.

So I could have 3 MLAS and chain fire them, and shoot my other weapons when i so desire.

Another thing, since jump jets take up critical space they would have a chance to be destoryed. So what would happen if a JJ was destroyed in one leg and not the other and you hit the botton to Jump? Would the mech go flying off wildly or would jumping be disabled.

I like this image of an incompetent pilot of a damaged Jenner jumping and ending up flying in an inward spiral until it plants itself facefirst into the ground. It'd start its own MWO meme for sure. But given that'd be difficult to implement I'm guess devs will limit jump strength to minimum number of intact jets per side... maybe if you have 3 per side torso and 2 on one side are destroyed it'll act as if there was only 1 on each side. Still, better to get them to confirm.

[Thorn Hallis]

Hayashi, on 18 April 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

If the devs follow Sarna strictly...

Well, no mech (on sarna or not) has any hardpoints to begin with...

[Dirk Le Daring]

More good info, thanks fellas

[Gigaton]

Hayashi, on 18 April 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Since we all love the Hunchback so much, I'll create a theoretical Hunchback hardpoint model, based on SARNA variants.

verybad, on 18 April 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Those are VARIANTs. They don't need to all be possible on each individual variant. That's the whole point of the variants system they've mentioned. If you want a specific loadout on a particular mech, a variant may have the hardpoints for it, but not another variant. I immagine hardpoints won't be completely limited to the number of weapons on a specific loadout, but a basic mech won't be able to load all variant loadouts onto it.

It's like verybad said Hayashi. Hardpoints will be variant specific (it's stated quite clearly in the original mechlab blog). You won't be able to replicate, for example, all canon Hunchback variants with single chassis. If you want to use Hunchback with missile weapons, my understanding is that you will need to purchase an entirely new variant that supports such weapons (which would presumably leave you with 2 seperate Hunchbacks in your 'mech garage).

Similarily, I'd say it is quite likely that DRG-1N Dragon will not have any energy hardpoints at all in the right arm. If you want to mount PPC or LLAS in that specific location, you will need to buy the Grand Dragon as seperate 'mech.

Quote with emphasis:

InnerSphereNews, on 04 April 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Each location on a BattleMech, such as the Right Arm or Center Torso, may include a number of hard points. The number of hard points in a given location is determined on a per variant basis, and is based on the weapons included in the variant’s default loadout. For example, a ’Mech that, by default, comes with 2 Medium Lasers and an Autocannon/2 in its Left Torso may actually have 3 energy weapon hard points and 2 ballistic hard points in that location. So, if the player is able to satisfy the weight and critical slot requirements, they could equip an additional energy weapon and ballistic weapon into that Left Torso, or swap out the Medium Lasers for other energy weapons, etc.

Edited by Gigaton, 18 April 2012 - 02:15 PM.

[Aegis Kleais]

I think Gigaton is right to this respect.

In short, if Mech Prime had 4 energy HPs and 2 ballistic HPs, and you wanted to use projectiles on that chassis, perhaps a Mech Variant X existed which might have like 4 energy, 1 ballistic and 1 projectile.

That means you'd have to buy the Variant X model if you want to use projectiles. The variant's HP's actually differ (but only slightly) from the base chassis.

[Hayashi]

Gigaton, on 18 April 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

It's like verybad said Hayashi. Hardpoints will be variant specific (it's stated quite clearly in the original mechlab blog). You won't be able to replicate, for example, all canon Hunchback variants with single chassis. If you want to use Hunchback with missile weapons, my understanding is that you will need to purchase an entirely new variant that supports such weapons (which would presumably leave you with 2 seperate Hunchbacks in your 'mech garage).

Similarily, I'd say it is quite likely that DRG-1N Dragon will not have any energy hardpoints at all in the right arm. If you want to mount PPC or LLAS in that specific location, you will need to buy the Grand Dragon as seperate 'mech.

Quote with emphasis:

I see the quote. You and Sprouticus are right, then; I'd have to take a lot of words back. So overpowered variants will start to be a real problem between chassis...

Unless the devs do their balancing very carefully.

Thanks for the info. Though I can't say it was what i was hoping for, it's good to know.

Personally that's really the only gripe I have with this system, though. At least to me, it seems like a clear upgrade on the systems from the previous games.

[Kenyon Burguess]

informative. slightly pleasing. however, i must make a few modifications to my modifications i was planning...

[Aegis Kleais]

OK. THIS is what I have taken away from everything so far.

• Each Mech has LOCATIONS (Head, Arms, Torsos, Legs)
  
• CRITICAL SLOTS are the methods by which an item takes up CRITICAL SPACE.
  
• Each Mech chassis has a BASE VARIANT (sometimes called 'Prime')
  
• Each LOCATION has a MAX TONNAGE, MAX CRITICAL SLOTS and HARDPOINTS
  
• MAX TONNAGE determines the maximum amount of weight that can be equipped in any given LOCATION. (As you add items to the location, there is less available tonnage)
  
• MAX CRITICAL SLOTS are the maximum amount of critical slots available in a LOCATION.
  
• HARDPOINTS are rated by WEAPON TYPE (Energy, Ballistic, Projectile) are are SINGLE-WEAPON MOUNTS for that specific weapon type.
  
• A weapon can be placed into a location as long as: (1) That LOCATION can afford the TONNAGE of the weapon, (2) That LOCATION has available CRITICAL SPACES which the weapon takes up and (3) That LOCATION has an available HARDPOINT of the WEAPON TYPE that the weapon belongs to.
  
• ARMOR takes up TONNAGE in a LOCATION, but not CRITICAL SPACE or HARDPOINTS
  
• EQUIPMENT takes up CRITICAL SLOTS and TONNAGE in a LOCATION, but not HARDPOINTS
  
• AMMO for an equipped weapon can be stored in ANY LOCATION. It is expected to take up TONNAGE for that location, but has not been confirmed whether it will take up CRITICAL SLOTS
  
• When going from STANDARD to ENDO STEEL, the difference is that multiple LOCATIONS will gain available TONNAGE but LOSE available CRITICAL SPACE
  
• When going from STANDARD ENGINE to XL ENGINE, the space that the engine usually comprises of in the CENTER TORSO LOCATION will expand to occupy some CRITICAL SPACE in the SIDE TORSO LOCATIONS, however it will also free up TONNAGE.
  
• HEATSINKS, though not confirmed, take up TONNAGE and CRITICAL SPACE (double heatsinks dissipate twice as effectively, take up the same tonnage, but take up more critical space)
  
• HARDPOINTS are based on the default loadout of a Mech.
  
• Not all VARIANTS are using all HARDPOINTS with their loadout (ie, though a variant shows 1 energy weapon in an arm, there may be 2 energy hardpoints there, just due to critical space and tonnage, they were unable to put another energy weapon there)
  
• The major difference between a prime chassis and its variants will be slightly different HARDPOINTS. (this can mean support for different weapon types in different locations or more/less of a particular weapon type in any given location)
  
• For each TON of ARMOR, you will have 16 POINTS to distribute it onto different LOCATIONS of the Mech. (it is unknown what the conversion rate is from normal to ferro or other types of supported armor.)
  
• ARMOR on TORSOS must be split between the front and back (does not have to be evenly split)
  
• CASE can only be utililzed on a TORSO location.
  
• AMMO that explodes does damage to the location in which it was stored
  
• For Mechs with NO HARDPOINTS in certain locations (ie, the Hunchback's Left Torso), there still will be CRITICAL SPACE and AVAILABLE TONNAGE to place things like ammo, equipment and armor.
  
• WEAPONS in locations that are destroyed or even separated from the Mech during battle are not lost, but require repair before they can be used again.
  
• You will be able to setup WEAPON GROUPINGS and save them with your loadout (You can also name your loadout, but there's no confirmation whether that will be shown in game or if it will just show the base variant model)
  
• WEAPONS TONNAGE and CRITICAL SPACE is being preserved from the TRO (PGI is choosing to instead, adjust the weapon's damage, ranges, reload, heat, etc.)

Edited by Aegis Kleaisâ„¢, 18 April 2012 - 03:51 PM.

[UnseenFury]

Quote

[DAVID][color=#CCCCCC] The hardpoint system will be related to how many weapons are in the default loadout, and not how many slots those weapons take up.[/color]

I don't get it. Can I make Annihilator with 20 machine guns or I can not?

[Aegis Kleais]

Paran01ac, on 18 April 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

I don't get it. Can I make Annihilator with 20 machine guns or I can not?

Assuming we get the Annie, it comes in a default loadout with 4x LBX/10. That means it has 4 ballistic hardpoints. So you would have a maximum of 4 machine guns. There would only be 4 ballistic mounts for weapons.

4 MG's isn't as fearsome as 4 LBX/10, but you'll definitely free up some tonnage for armor and speed

[Orzorn]

If you think about it, mounting heavy weapons in certain hardpoints around the mech will now give us a reason to use lighter weapons. If you slapped a PPC on a mech and then, say, an LRM15 or 20, then you might not have a lot of tonnage left. Imagine then that you have a ballistics hardpoint. Well, you might as well put a machine gun there if you don't need any extra heat sinks or LRM ammo.

[UnseenFury]

Aegis Kleais™, on 18 April 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

Assuming we get the Annie, it comes in a default loadout with 4x LBX/10. That means it has 4 ballistic hardpoints. So you would have a maximum of 4 machine guns. There would only be 4 ballistic mounts for weapons.

4 MG's isn't as fearsome as 4 LBX/10, but you'll definitely free up some tonnage for armor and speed

And in other answer he says you can swap PPC for 2 or 3 medium lasers, does it mean that that arm had 3 hardpoints for beam weapons?

Also I'm tired of logging in each time I want to say something

Edited by Paran01ac, 18 April 2012 - 04:23 PM.

[Aegis Kleais]

Paran01ac, on 18 April 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

And in other answer he says you can swap PPC for 2 or 3 medium lasers, does it mean that that arm had 3 hardpoints for beam weapons?

Also I'm tired of logging in each time I want to say something

I think what he meant there was "Since a PPC is 3 crits, one should not think that you can replace it with 3 1-slot items, like 3 medium lasers. Instead, it should be seen as 1 PPC = 1 energy hardpoint (mount) so you can replace the PPC with another single weapon (that has as many slots as are available in that location)

[Thomas Hogarth]

Hayashi, on 18 April 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

I see the quote. You and Sprouticus are right, then; I'd have to take a lot of words back. So overpowered variants will start to be a real problem between chassis...

I think evidence points out that some sort of valuing of individual chassis for matchmaker to work with is in order. Some have noted that a straight Battle Value based system would not work correctly, and I agree. I think at the very least a system based on BV with less value given to speed and jump ability would work quite well.

Consider: Individual calculations could be entirely back-end and not displayed to the user, so: A) it would be relatively simple for the devs to change the way the system balances various values on the fly and B: with the values hidden, it would be rather hard for users to "game" the system by making configurations that were relatively powerful for low values. Also note that the BV system, even if modified, is relatively simple, so values could be given to custom designs with ease.

Edited by Thomas Hogarth, 18 April 2012 - 04:32 PM.