206 replies to this topic

[Sprouticus]

This is pulled from another mechlab thread. I wanted to talk about what the mechlab will mean to the MWO leveling system, and how it will IMO break it or make it absurdly meaningless.

MaddMaxx, on 19 April 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

Way to miss the point good sir. So you would buy the D and then change all the changes back to what? Non XL?, non- Endo?

You can do what you want, but it may just be cheaper to BUY the Variant.

But the problem is that variants can be customized, the XP/leveling system gets borked.

As a review, the training system in MWO will rely upon training in each variant of each mech to open up bonuses for that mech and variant and to get pilot points for modules.


Now, let's say the Awesome has the 8Q, 8R and 8T. You can take an 8T and turn it into an 8R. Which means from a training standpoint you are using the EXACT same mech to 'train up' two different variants.

What is the problem with that you ask? It circumvents the entire idea of leveling variants to achieve extra pilot points and modules. They might as well just have 1 leveling tree per mech and call it a day.

You could make it even more extreme. Take a stock Hunchie, take out the AC20 and put in 2 PPC's. Now you are leveling a Hunchie, but it is NOT a Hunchie, it is an Uziel with a different profile.

I want the variants to mean something, and I want the leveling system to mean something. With the extreme level of customization allowed currently, the leveling system becomes meaningless. If they Devs want this level of customization, Im ok with it (not happy, but ok).

But in that case they should revise the leveling system to account for it and at a minimum remove variants as a factor in leveling.

More and more I am leaning toward Zorak's suggestions in the thread below. If you have not read this thread, it is worth the time.

http://mwomercs.com/...bt-build-rules/

In particular I think each hardpoint should have a MAXIMUM size for weapons (if you had a ML in the arm, it can only be replaced with a ML or SL. If you have a LL it can be replaced with LL, ML, SL, and if you have a PPC it can be replace with anything). This will limit customization some, but it will also make variants very important. And make leveling a variant MEAN something. It may also cause some variants to be shelved, but that is a topic for discussion in another thread.


What does everyone think about this? Do you care about the leveling system? Should it matter that you are cheating it by using custom mech which completely re-purpose a mech and still allows you to level the mech?

Edited by Sprouticus, 19 April 2012 - 06:28 AM.

[palebear]

I don't know how you can speculate on what variants will allow 'cheating' since we know neither the variants nor what hardpoints the variants they do choose, would have.

It's pretty straightforward to make sure than no two mech hardpoint/critical layouts are isomorphic.

Edited by palebear, 20 April 2012 - 09:15 AM.

[Listless Nomad]

But why would you buy the 8T, and turn it into the 8R? Wouldn't it be simpler to get an 8R? I'm not dismissing your point (it does have some merit)- I'm just curious since that was the example you used.

Anyways, I was under the impression there was only one skill tree per chassis - not variant. I guess I was confused. I'll keep an eye on this thread to see if any Devs decide to chime in.

[MaddMaxx]

In the case of the Hunchback, it comes down to what matters most to the Pilot. Armor, Speed or Firepower, or some mix. Your 2 PPC version either slows down (ouch), loses 25% of it armor, runs hotter (23/19 with 9 HS's) or you BUY the Swayback variant.

Perhaps all the changes required to convert the Stock to the Dual PPC version will be more expensive than a Variant version.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 19 April 2012 - 06:41 AM.

[Adridos]

I did not read the whole post, so I appology in advance if you mentioned it, but you are wrong. I cannot make an Uziel from Hunchback, nor can I change the stock Hunchback to the Swayback variant. Read about mechlab a bit and you will see why are you wrong.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I agree with Sprouticus that Zorak's suggestions are the way to go. At the moment, as he said, you can drop the AC20 from a Hunchie, along with the 2 MLs and fit 2 PPCs. Presumably as far as the game is concerned for levelling purposes its still the "stock" model not a variant. Yet it will play totally differently. I can't see the present system working at all, certainly not in the way that the dev's have indicated their vision for the game.
Perhaps I've misinterpreted what they intend. Alternatively there are other features that they haven't yet implemented which will be sorted after further playtesting. They did say that this was a work in progress. If this is the case then we could still be quite a way from an open beta.

[Bullwerk]

How do you take a Hunchie and remove the AC-20 and drop in two PPCs? Did you happen to miss the part about Hard Points being weapon type specific? AC-20 is a ballistic weapon, PPC is an energy weapon. One can not replace the other. This will be one of the primary drives behind variants I do believe. Different variants will not only have differing amounts of Hard Points but differing TYPES of Hard Points.

In the end speculating that leveling is broken by the mech lab before we have seen either system fully designed and working is a bit pre-mature. Saying such a thing based upon a faulty understanding of the stated mechanics is even worse.

[Sprouticus]

Adridos, on 19 April 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

I did not read the whole post, so I appology in advance if you mentioned it, but you are wrong. I cannot make an Uziel from Hunchback, nor can I change the stock Hunchback to the Swayback variant. Read about mechlab a bit and you will see why are you wrong.

You can totally turn a hunchie into an uzi, or a very close approxijmation if the 2S

Hunchback will have (at least) 1 energy hardpoint on each arm (ml's) and one ballisitc in the RT, probably more (AC)
Remove the AC and lasers
Add 2xPPC, one in each arm
Add the mg's to the torso
Convert to endo and XL engine, jack up the speed. (optimal, but accurate for replicating the Uzi)

You cant put the SRM or JJ's on it, unless them make a 5S available at some point, but its darn close.

The key point I was making however was that you completely change the makeup of the mech from a short range brawler to a LR sniper.

Edited by Sprouticus, 19 April 2012 - 07:34 AM.

[Mechteric]

There seems to be a lot of assumptions for what we just don't know that much about. We don't even know yet how effective lasers versus PPCs versus AC20 will be in game.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Bullwerk, on 19 April 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

How do you take a Hunchie and remove the AC-20 and drop in two PPCs? Did you happen to miss the part about Hard Points being weapon type specific? AC-20 is a ballistic weapon, PPC is an energy weapon. One can not replace the other. This will be one of the primary drives behind variants I do believe. Different variants will not only have differing amounts of Hard Points but differing TYPES of Hard Points.

In the end speculating that leveling is broken by the mech lab before we have seen either system fully designed and working is a bit pre-mature. Saying such a thing based upon a faulty understanding of the stated mechanics is even worse.

Because it has 2 energy HP's for the 2 MLs which are also dropped. Nothing in the present system prevents you replacing the 2 MLs with PPCs as long as you have the weight and crits free.

[Redshift2k5]

Well the Hunchback has an AC-20 and two medium lasers, so with enough juggling one could maybe place two PPCs in place of the medium lasers. But you're not accounting for critical slots or weight. The PPC can go on a laser hardpoint, but only if you have weight and critical to fit them(being much larger and needing more subsystems than a medium laser), which is easier said than done.

The 'repurposing' will not be as broad as you seem to think it is, because of # of hardpoints, type of hardpoints, weight, and critical space considerations.

[Sprouticus]

Listless Nomad, on 19 April 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

But why would you buy the 8T, and turn it into the 8R? Wouldn't it be simpler to get an 8R? I'm not dismissing your point (it does have some merit)- I'm just curious since that was the example you used.

Anyways, I was under the impression there was only one skill tree per chassis - not variant. I guess I was confused. I'll keep an eye on this thread to see if any Devs decide to chime in.

My point was that you could convert them to each other, and while leveling in a 8T you would actually be piloting an 8R. (or the exact same layout as an 8R. so why have variants in the leveling process if it doesnt actually MEAN anything.

As for the skill tree, perhaps I misread it. My understanding was that there was one skill tree per chassis, but you would be leveling each variant to a certain level before you could start leveling the 'elite' functions for each chassis.

And that is sort of my point. Their leveling scheme breaks down in value when such an extreme level of customization is available. Either the variant leveling is meaningless, or they need to change their leveling system to match the customization.

[Havoc2]

The game isn't released and we've have minimal information about the MechLab. THE SKY IS FALLING!! THE SKY IS FALLING!!



Oh and I think some people may have been missing the hardpoint system post by the devs. You won't be able to pull an AC20 off a Hunchie and put a PPC in its place. You MAY be able to pull the AC20 and the MLas off and put a PPC in place of the MLas, then put a lighter ballistic weapon in place of the AC20 but that depends on if pulling the MLas off the Hunchie gives enough critical space to fit the PPC.

From what I remember reading of the MechLab dev blog, both critical space and hardpoint configuration are going to be taken into account (like the MW4 Mechlab) so you cannot strip a ballistic weapon and put an energy weapon in its place.

If different variants are put into the game, I hope that they will be changing the hardpoints as well as the load outs, so in your example of the Awesome and Hunchie, you will be limited in customization based on what hardpoints are available. If you want to make a missile boat out of your Awesome, you'll need to purchase a variant that has those hardpoints.



Edit as there were like 5 posts as I was posting this lol.
1 MLas is equal to 1 crit (ASSUMPTION)
1 PPC is equal to 3 crits (ASSUMPTION)

Taking out 1 MLas does not let you put in 1 PPC unless that arm has 2 crits available.

From reading the MechLab blog, I see the MWO lab as being VERY similar to the MW4 Mechlab. Each arm may only have 2 crits total in the arm. Maybe you can remove the AC20 and the 2 MLas and put a LLas in each arm and 2 AC5s in the torso.

Edited by }{avoc, 19 April 2012 - 07:44 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

If you drop the AC20 theres plenty of room and weight free.

[00dlez]

I imagine that if you take an 8D and load it out like an 8R, it will still be an 8D and level as such... not as an 8R and certainly not both at once

[Johannes Falkner]

Redshift2k5, on 19 April 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

The 'repurposing' will not be as broad as you seem to think it is, because of # of hardpoints, type of hardpoints, weight, and critical space considerations.

Except if you look at most 3025 variants, the critical space is a non-constraint for most of them. Without endo-steel or ferro-fibrous to eat crits most of the mechs are empty.

[Redshift2k5]

It is also possible they may add further (unused)Hardpoints on some stock or variants, so maybe in cases where a stock and variant seem to have the same # and type of hardpoint, there are some unused hardpoints (available but without a weapon in them in the default loadout) to allow the stock and variant to differ more

[Felicitatem Parco]

I think the Author's point may be that people will first play their favorite Chassis variant and level it up... but once that's leveled to a point they have to choose a different variant before they can advance any further down their leveling trees. In light of this they will then choose a different variant, but modify it in MechLab until it matches the profile of their favorite variant as closely as possible.

This is sort of what I thought after hearing about the "all variants" chassis-leveling system. It's designed to introduce a little variety in the game, but it'll also create a population of players who will try to circumvent it as much as they can in the Mech Lab.

[Havoc2]

Sprouticus, on 19 April 2012 - 07:37 AM, said:

My point was that you could convert them to each other, and while leveling in a 8T you would actually be piloting an 8R. (or the exact same layout as an 8R. so why have variants in the leveling process if it doesnt actually MEAN anything.

As for the skill tree, perhaps I misread it. My understanding was that there was one skill tree per chassis, but you would be leveling each variant to a certain level before you could start leveling the 'elite' functions for each chassis.

And that is sort of my point. Their leveling scheme breaks down in value when such an extreme level of customization is available. Either the variant leveling is meaningless, or they need to change their leveling system to match the customization.

The 'Mech leveling is chassis specific, not variant specific. By piloting the 'Mech you get XP for that 'Mech regardless of what weapons you decide to put on after the fact.
Whether this XP actually DOES anything to make those weapons more effective or simply improves the piloting ability and modules for that PARTICULAR chassis remains to be seen (I believe).

[Grinner]

Yeah, AC 20 alone weighs 14 tons, which covers the weight of the twin PPCs, and with the ammo and 2 medium lasers removed, you've got a place to slot the PPCs and tonnage for heat sinks. The and have ample critical space and the energy hard point required. He brings up an interesting question but i'm not sure we have enough information about how exactly the whole hard point system to answer it yet.