206 replies to this topic

[Havoc2]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 19 April 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

If you drop the AC20 theres plenty of room and weight free.

Sure there is, but not for energy weapons unless there are extra energy hardpoints available elsewhere.

[Helmer]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 19 April 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

I agree with Sprouticus that Zorak's suggestions are the way to go. At the moment, as he said, you can drop the AC20 from a Hunchie, along with the 2 MLs and fit 2 PPCs. Presumably as far as the game is concerned for levelling purposes its still the "stock" model not a variant. Yet it will play totally differently. I can't see the present system working at all, certainly not in the way that the dev's have indicated their vision for the game.
Perhaps I've misinterpreted what they intend. Alternatively there are other features that they haven't yet implemented which will be sorted after further playtesting. They did say that this was a work in progress. If this is the case then we could still be quite a way from an open beta.

In the Hunchback -4G you probably could not. It has hardpoints for Ballistic weapons in the RT, and you would not be able to mount PPCs there.

However, if you took the swayback variant -4P, with the 6 MedLasers in the RT, you would be able to..


At least that's my understanding of it.



cheers.

[Name136774]

Redshift2k5, on 19 April 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

It is also possible they may add further (unused)Hardpoints on some stock or variants, so maybe in cases where a stock and variant seem to have the same # and type of hardpoint, there are some unused hardpoints (available but without a weapon in them in the default loadout) to allow the stock and variant to differ more

Hope they do this. They could also make some hardpoints universal for both energy and balistic weapons.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Alternatively they could do away with HPs altogether and go back to MW3 if there ends up no real difference.

[Sprouticus]

Redshift2k5, on 19 April 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

It is also possible they may add further (unused)Hardpoints on some stock or variants, so maybe in cases where a stock and variant seem to have the same # and type of hardpoint, there are some unused hardpoints (available but without a weapon in them in the default loadout) to allow the stock and variant to differ more

00dlez, on 19 April 2012 - 07:40 AM, said:

I imagine that if you take an 8D and load it out like an 8R, it will still be an 8D and level as such... not as an 8R and certainly not both at once

I suppose thats possible, but what about the hunchback example.I gave above. It is unlike any variant.

They could, I suppose, make custom variants do some kind of generic leveling and only have variants level based upon stock variant drops, but that seems rather confining.

And Havoc, Im not sayng the sky is falling, I am simply pointing out an inconsistency between the Dev's stated goals in theri leveling system vs their mechlab. I have faith that the Dev's will address the inconsistency in one way or another, they have shown themselves to be smart and have a great grasp of the concept.

Here is a good post by Zorak regarding the mechlab in its current config. take what he says and then apply the ideas to the leveling system as it sits today. As I stated in a couple of other threads, having hardpoints as the only differentiator between mechs and variants ins just not enough. this matters both for mech/variant usefulness AND for the leveling system.

http://mwomercs.com/...post__p__208221

[zorak ramone]

The best example of why size restrictions are necessary, using two mechs that have already been released, is hunchback vs dragon

The HBK-4G has an AC20 (2 tons ammo), 2xML, 1xSL, and 3 extra heat sinks (on top of the 10 engine heat sinks). If you strip down weapons and equipment you have the following hardpoints and free tonnage
RA: 1xEnergy (8 crits)
LA: 1xEnergy (8 crits)
RT: 1xBalistic (12 crits)
H: 1xEnergy (1 crit)
Free tons: 21.5 tons

The DRG-1N has an AC5 (2xammo), LRM10 (2xammo), and 2xML and no extra heat sinks (so just 10 engine HS). If you strip down weapons and equipment you have the following hardpoints and free tonnage:
RA: 1xBalistic (10 crits)
LA: 1xEnergy (8 crits)
LT: 1xEnergy (12 crits)
CT: 1xMissle (2 Crits)
Free tons: 19

Both have 10 tons of armor, but the Dragon runs at 85kph, compared to the Hunckback's 64. If you ignore the missle hardpoint, the Dragon basically overlaps the Hunchback except for one energy hardpoint. This means that the Dragon can pack the Hunchback's primary configuration, minus the SL and 2 heat sinks, but at 85kph.

If armor and engines can be replaced, then the Dragon can mount a slower engine to match the hunchback's speed, but will now have more tonnage available for more weapons or armor.

So in short, without space restrictions, the Dragon becomes (or can become) almost anything a hunchback can be ... only better.

EDIT: I realize that there will be a price premium on the Dragon because its heavier. Its the only reason why the HBK can exist in the same game as an Atlas. However, unlike the Atlas, the Dragon is only 10 tons heavier. The price will probably not be all that different ... especially if you can downgrade the engine of the Dragon.

Edited by zorak ramone, 19 April 2012 - 08:06 AM.

[CeeKay Boques]

Oh man I hope you're right! I dislike the whole "leveling" thing anyway! When i hear all this talk of XP and skill trees, I think that it must be some other game, but you're still talking about MechWarrior! So weird! Maybe it will be broken and they'll abandon it!


*puts up hand for high five*


*tumbleweed*

[Sprouticus]

}{avoc, on 19 April 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

The 'Mech leveling is chassis specific, not variant specific. By piloting the 'Mech you get XP for that 'Mech regardless of what weapons you decide to put on after the fact.
Whether this XP actually DOES anything to make those weapons more effective or simply improves the piloting ability and modules for that PARTICULAR chassis remains to be seen (I believe).

Except it is not Havoc. See the chart

http://img.mwomercs....ev_blog4_01.jpg

Notice that you will level up each variant in the example before you can achieve Elite I

Which is fine, if the variants mean something. But if variants dont actually mean anything (due to customization) then the system doesn't make much sense. All I am oointing out is that the two systems dont work well together.

[Havoc2]

Sprouticus, on 19 April 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

Except it is not Havoc. See the chart

http://img.mwomercs....ev_blog4_01.jpg

Notice that you will level up each variant in the example before you can achieve Elite I

Which is fine, if the variants mean something. But if variants dont actually mean anything (due to customization) then the system doesn't make much sense. All I am oointing out is that the two systems dont work well together.

Ah I see what you're saying now, I misunderstood the original post and understood the progression as Variant A, B, C to be 'Mech 1, 2, 3 not 'Mech 1A, 1B, 1C

I get your meaning now. While I wouldn't go so far as to say that the MechLab would "break" leveling, it does make the variant designation meaningless UNLESS (as stated previously) they come with different hardpoint configurations that would allow another weapons type in place of its predecessor (like the Hunchie replacing the AC20 with a hardpoint capable of mounting 6 MLas).

This would force you to either stick with a variant to maximize its potential (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) or stick to a specific chassis and level up 2+ variants.

[Sprouticus]

}{avoc, on 19 April 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

Ah I see what you're saying now, I misunderstood the original post and understood the progression as Variant A, B, C to be 'Mech 1, 2, 3 not 'Mech 1A, 1B, 1C

I get your meaning now. While I wouldn't go so far as to say that the MechLab would "break" leveling, it does make the variant designation meaningless UNLESS (as stated previously) they come with different hardpoint configurations that would allow another weapons type in place of its predecessor (like the Hunchie replacing the AC20 with a hardpoint capable of mounting 6 MLas).

This would force you to either stick with a variant to maximize its potential (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) or stick to a specific chassis and level up 2+ variants.

That would be fine, except that both Hunchies can be modified to (for instance) run 2x PPC's. Now perhaps that is not your favorite config. I am just using it as an example. But now both variants are exactly the same.

The Jenner has the same issue. You can create EVERY version of the Jenner from the base if you can swap out equipment, armor, CASe, etc. So I can level a F version while configured like an A version. Or I can swap everything for a PPC in one arm.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I think the definition of "Mech Variant" will be the distribution of HardPoints and critical space slots, and presence/absence of jumpjets; the initial weapons, themselves, are just accessories to the Mech.

Hardpoints define the variant because hardpoints are not interconvertable. The structural hardware needed to mount a recoil-heavy Autocannon are quite different than the mounting hardware you need to attach an energy-intensive laser apparatus, etc. Think about it: only a factory would have the tools needed to replace a Hunchback's AC shoulder-mount with something suitable for mounting a bunch of lasers to make a Swayback. They'd have to remove the recoil absorption mechanisms, the feeding mechanisms, all that jazz... then they'd have to re-wire the entire right torso to supply the lasers with energy, and then get cooling taken care of.

That's why they build factory variants - to prevent the need for this kind of wasteful re-engineering if you want to make a single chassis more flexible and expand your market access... it's all about the C-bills, baby.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 19 April 2012 - 08:42 AM.

[SideSt3p]

Considering none of us have even played Beta, I think it's a little early to "cry-wolf".

Until we have full relase (not even beta releases) we don't know what exactly we'll be getting. Everything is subject to change and nothing has been set in stone. Until we've got a working model to play around with, I think we should just try to be patient and wait for more information.

[Garth Erlam]

Sprouticus, on 19 April 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

Except it is not Havoc. See the chart

http://img.mwomercs....ev_blog4_01.jpg

Notice that you will level up each variant in the example before you can achieve Elite I

Which is fine, if the variants mean something. But if variants dont actually mean anything (due to customization) then the system doesn't make much sense. All I am oointing out is that the two systems dont work well together.

I don't speak for David, but I'm pretty confident he's not adding variants that have identical hard points - why bother?

[Havoc2]

I vote we stop picking on points until the game is released.


That way in case we point out something that the devs need to change, it doesn't push back the release date

[Havoc2]

Garth Erlam, on 19 April 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

I don't speak for David, but I'm pretty confident he's not adding variants that have identical hard points - why bother?

Something I'm curious about is if all chassis will have the same number of variants, or will certain chassis take longer to level to Elite status because there are more variants available?
I would have a problem with this, unless it's restricted to light/med/heavy/assault where to level an Atlas you need to level 4 variants, Heavy 3, med 2, light 1 (or some variation).

Kinda makes sense to make leveling the heavier 'Mechs cost more, and also adds a bit of encouragement to run lighter chassis in addition to a specific role.

[Lomack]

I am sure that.. this is what the beta will be for...

If PGI sees people doing this and circumventing their leveling process they will add some code to limit the amount of modification you can do to a variant before it is no longer the same mech. Then again, maybe they don't care as long as the player is willing to spend the resources.

Perhapse the c-bill cost to refit the mech is a large enough negative that most people won't want to bother. Blowing the extra cash to make these changes will end up shorting the player in the long run.

Example: Lets say you are an above average player with V1 (Variant1) and can make good cash with this mech, so you play that one extra to build up c-bills. If on average you can make X amount of C-bills per match, with V1, and it costs 100X to afford all the customizations you want, to turn V2 into one that resembles V1. However, if you just get V2 and play it straight up it only takes the average player
10 matches for Tier 1
15 matches for Tier 2
20 matches for Tier 3
25 matches for Tier 4
It will be (30 matches) faster and easier to just play through V2 and then move on. Perhapse you will learn something in the process that makes you a more well rounded and better Mechwarrior.

Perhapse you will not be able to customize your mech fully untill you have qualified on the stock variant. They could all ways adjust the level of customization you can perform on a variant based on any numbe of factors. Your rank, your experience on that variant, etc...
- Maybe you can't customize a chassis type until the stock variants are all done through Tier 4, ie you've reached Elite1 status with that type.
- Maybe it costs X% more to customize a variant when your at Tier 1, and drops by Y% for every Tier you achieve.
- Maybe you can only do limited customization at Tier 1, a bit more at Tier 2, etc...

[Bullwerk]

See Garth's Comment. This is the essence of the debate. If all the available variants have different hard point counts and types then there is a reason for each one. Each Variant bought increases your options for customizing a chassis in different ways. I think it's a good system that will add a lot of depth. I have faith that PGI is smart enough to figure out this stuff. Faith is important.

[Trevnor]

As a couple of others have already pointed out, we do not have the beta yet, so it is extremely early to be bring this sort of thing up, also, the devs would've likely thought of this, or at least their in-house testers would have while the game was still in Alpha. You can't claim something about a game which you haven't had any play time on, besides the fact that we have very little details about a incomplete customization system.

[EDMW CSN]

Or customs do NOT get Mech Xp, only pilot xp. So you can make your fave min max built but no leveling allow, unless you use stock variants ;f

[MaddMaxx]

[EDMW]CSN, on 19 April 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

Or customs do NOT get Mech Xp, only pilot xp. So you can make your fave min max built but no leveling allow, unless you use stock variants ;f

That, or you have to BUY the Variants and level them and if you wish to, and can, based on HP's config, convert one variant to some other quasi version, then that is the players choice. To reach Elite, you will have to BUY and level +/- 3 variants. How you configure them after purchase is on the Player.

That would work. We would need to see the Variant List to know exactly what will be available and how dramatic the Customization might be.

The Hunchie is a good example. Take the Stock Variant, put the PPC's on it, but now it has a 90m no fire/dead zone (PPC's min. range) the Stock version did not come with. Draw back enough? That would be on the builder of that config to decide.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 19 April 2012 - 09:10 AM.