769 replies to this topic

[EtherDragon]

@wuzy, I hadn't thought to include costs in the poll...

[Sable Hawk]

Hey hey hey,

Remember back on the 6th when they said there would be a hotfix for Missiles not showing up as damage in the 'score' page (hence no C-Bills or Exp for your missiles)?

Yeah, so have you noticed that it still isn't fixed?
I am not talking about the 'yeah it is' crowd. If it is working for you - great, move along.

I am talking to those of us who spend the game, pounding various targets with LRMs, softening them up for the rest of the lance and/or killing the scouts, only to find at the end of the game your assists don't count (ah.. yeah I hit more than 2 mechs in that match where we killed them all) you did minimal damage (63 damage ? Really? I went through 1000 missiles, watched well over half of them hit and only did 63 damage?), so get no damage C-bills, and look, minimal assist xp and no damage xp. Boy that grind to Master is gonna be fun.

But why bother, I can just play a supercharged Jenner, tap all the mechs with my lasers, get spotting bonuses, and probably a few kills as well. Not to mention out running LRM's. Imagine that, the bad guys just putting the pedal to the medal to out run our Hellfire missiles.. so in essence in 3025 they have worse tracking software than 1980's missiles did and travel about as fast as 1920's rockets.

Oh yeah, that is good coding...

-___-


edit:typos

Edited by Sable Hawk, 15 November 2012 - 12:10 PM.

[DerMaulwurf]

I've been using my LRM Cat and Atlas in the last days and it's not as horrible as people claim.

The damage is quite low, but so is the risk. You can also support your teammates right away, instead of having to move into LoS. I know that especially in random groups you lose your lock very frequently, but getting to fire, as soon as anyone in your team aquires a target is damn powerful.

The thing that keeps me from using LRMs more is the ammo cost.

[deforce]

in that case i want a 3025 version of a nuke. gg killed all 4000 mechs online in one shot. oh wait its a game, weapons need balance.

[Xenok]

I have felt that LRMs were a problem through closed beta, becoming a founder and in the game up until this patch. I now think they are just fine.

They will strip armor, and can kill if you are stupid in your play.
The LRM player is no longer a high kill score player, they never should be. Its a long range support weapon and should fall in a support role. It now does.
Cover seems to work much better when used than in the past.
Damage seems appropriate for the role of the weapon.
If you get caught out in the open targeted by three LRM players your dead.
If you can work around the LRM launches with cover, ohter rannged weapons (gause, PPC) can force the LRM mechs to move and respond.
LRM platforms are great for supporting scouts and brawlers, and must be delt with or your team looses.

All good.

The only thing I have any problem with now is AMS is still weak and needs to be improved. It should greatly nullify an LRM platform firing at the AMS armed mech until the AMS runs out of ammo. That is not really an LRM problem, and its a minor problem that is not game breaking.

[MD9445]

I would allow for arm mounted systems to have the ability to keep the target locked with the torso, so that I could aim my arms to another spot and get different angles on missile fire. This is more or less based upon where the missile tubes are located, how they are orientated, and if you can move the launcher.

Example.

Standing behind a building, somewhat facing the target. I'm stopped or slowly moving (or on the run depending on how good a pilot I am). I keep the torso reticule on the target and aim my arms to my right. When I get a lock, I fire the missiles and they launch from my arms to the right, then turn left toward my target. This allows me to shoot around solid objects while still under a little bit of cover.

This would also help with aiming up, as when on Caustic Vally, and your on the bottom of the cauldron, you could actually aim up wards to "lob" missiles over the edge, instead of just launching them into the ground.

Granted, the do have to go straight for a little bit, as they need to leave the tubes and accelerate, but once up to speed (lets say 50 meters) then they could turn toward the target.

I'm not talking a hard right hand turn, but a decent sloping arc. Would give missiles a totally different feel, and would change tactics greatly, as there would be some really interesting positions in which you could fire from, instead of just being that dude at the top of the hill.

This option would only be for those with ARM hard points, like the catapult. The atlas, if i remember correctly, could also benefit some what from this new firing theory, because if I remember correctly, their launchers are already sloped, and could create more of an arc VS just going forward. Something to think about.

Edited by MD9445, 15 November 2012 - 11:32 AM.

[Vyseth Hunter]

The problem with Lrms before was the effective range and arc before the patch. The damage only seemed like a problem because you had full missile boat teams that would fire lrms that would come straight down on you or from around corners even if you are under cover. The range and accuracy made it stupid easy for the enemy to fire on you with out even aiming and the spread would remain tight and connect well past the listed max range. With the new changes you can probobly bump the damage but only very slightly.

To whom ever says they can't get anyone in the red with lrms remember you need to keep in mind the many players are still firing lrms the same way they were before patch expecting them all to hit. If you don't have a direct line of sight when you fire make sure you at least have an arc path with in the reasonable limits of reality . Lighter mechs can out run missiles at long ranges and other mechs carry ams and are near or behind cover. Just because the lrms show locked on your screen does not mean you will hit them if you fire carelessly.

-V

[Xenok]

MD9445, on 15 November 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

I would allow for arm mounted systems to have the ability to keep the target locked with the torso, so that I could aim my arms to another spot and get different angles on missile fire. This is more or less based upon where the missile tubes are located, how they are orientated, and if you can move the launcher.

Example.

Standing behind a building, somewhat facing the target. I'm stopped or slowly moving (or on the run depending on how good a pilot I am). I keep the torso reticule on the target and aim my arms to my right. When I get a lock, I fire the missiles and they launch from my arms to the right, then turn left toward my target. This allows me to shoot around solid objects while still under a little bit of cover.

This would also help with aiming up, as when on Caustic Vally, and your on the bottom of the cauldron, you could actually aim up wards to "lob" missiles over the edge, instead of just launching them into the ground.

Granted, the do have to go straight for a little bit, as they need to leave the tubes and accelerate, but once up to speed (lets say 50 meters) then they could turn toward the target.

I'm not talking a hard right hand turn, but a decent sloping arc. Would give missiles a totally different feel, and would change tactics greatly, as there would be some really interesting positions in which you could fire from, instead of just being that dude at the top of the hill.

This option would only be for those with ARM hard points, like the catapult. The atlas, if i remember correctly, could also benefit some what from this new firing theory, because if I remember correctly, their launchers are already sloped, and could create more of an arc VS just going forward. Something to think about.

I like this idea so long as it does not provide the ability to fire and hit an opponent from complete cover. That ability is game breaking. The LRM mech must have to have some vantage point that brings some exposure to it from Direct fire weapons. it does not have be the same mech being shot at, but form some mech in some long ranged position, otherwise the only option left to break up a LRM group is the scout mech which can get massacred durring closure

[WardenWolf]

To the OP - have you submitted this as a support issue? If not, I highly recommend doing so. I have seen a couple other similar complaints to yours, so I wonder if one specific type of missile (maybe non-Artemis LRM? or a specific size launcher?) is still bugged. Please include all the details you can about your mech, loadout, etc - screenshots even, if you can - and contact MWO support:

http://mwomercs.com/support

[Sable Hawk]

WardenWolf, on 15 November 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

To the OP - have you submitted this as a support issue? If not, I highly recommend doing so. I have seen a couple other similar complaints to yours, so I wonder if one specific type of missile (maybe non-Artemis LRM? or a specific size launcher?) is still bugged. Please include all the details you can about your mech, loadout, etc - screenshots even, if you can - and contact MWO support:

http://mwomercs.com/support

oh.. wait... you mean do my job as a beta tester??
(doh.. bit of mud on my face there..)

Thanks for the reminder - I will do that

[warp103]

EnigmaNL, on 15 November 2012 - 12:16 AM, said:

LRM's are nerfed too much. I don't even bother taking AMS on my mechs anymore. Evading them is super easy, even with Artemis LRM's and if they manage to hit you it's not really a problem when you're in an Atlas.

hell you can stand still let the boat exhaust it missile and grin.While he is saying oh ****. Game has become so lame. My k2 rules c1 sucks lol. I am about to get a lite mech to rake up kill to death like the rest.

[EtherDragon]

@Xenok

I actuall disagree about AMS. It should not be a full counter to LRMs (by itself), at best it should be a partial counter - acting to reduce the number of missiles that hit. Now, how effective AMS should be could be a good discussion - but even in TT, AMS only removes 2-5 missiles.

I also think that LRMs currently ability to fire from behind soft cover is fine. It's the only weapon that can. However, I think that this case should be handled more like indirect fire rules from TT. As long as the damage is alright given the other capabilities, we are good to go.

Edited by EtherDragon, 15 November 2012 - 01:47 PM.

[MavRCK]

This is a fallacious poll - there is no "neutral", "not-applicable", "just fine", "okay, etc. option.

Wait til 8-man premades to make a decision. Let's see how the best teams utilize them.

Thanks!

Edited by MavRCK, 15 November 2012 - 02:08 PM.

[Bitey001]

LRMs were fine pre-Artemis. What they should have done is fixed the arcing issues. They could have jacked the damage on LRMs all the way down to 1.5, as long as they left the spread and %-hit alone on them.


Summary:

*Far too easy to avoid LRM (Just walk perpendicular to incoming LRM fire)
*Very few missiles actually do hit a target
*Damage and spread nerfed. Damage nerf was ok. Spread nerf was too big.

Might as well be shaking million dollar pepper on mechs out there if you're an LRM boat. Pretty much the same result on your kill count and wallet.

Edit: I'd just like to point out that these polls mostly target a specific subsection of the playerbase. If I had to guess, it would mainly be more organized players that run with their own group/clan. They likely run with at least a dedicated spotter or two. So, to them maybe LRM is "fine".

However, you're going to see much less exposure to lone wolf and pubber players on here. I suggest you also take a look at how often LRMs are still being used in pub games to get a better perspective of how relavent they are damage-wise in the minds of players.

Edited by Bitey001, 15 November 2012 - 02:53 PM.

[Jacob Roamer]

They are ok.

WIth the bump to 1.08 damage I think they will be spot on.

LRM's by themselves are sub-standard
LRM's with Artemis or Tag are good
LRM's with Both Artemis and Tag are very good.

Just the way it should be in my mind from a group standpoint.

[EtherDragon]

MavRCK, on 15 November 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

This is a fallacious poll - there is no "neutral", "not-applicable", "just fine", "okay, etc. option.

Wait til 8-man premades to make a decision. Let's see how the best teams utilize them.

Thanks!

The neutral options are implicit when one doesn't check "too low" or "too high" values, since you are agreeing with the statement by checking it.

If you don't agree with "too high" and you don't agree with "too low" then you must agree that it is just right. For instance 38 of 64 people voted either too high or too low for damage. Thus 26 people don't agree with either statement.

It's a weakness of the clarity of the poll, but we are smart enough to see the logical implication.

Edited by EtherDragon, 15 November 2012 - 03:07 PM.

[Redbull102]

Tried today LRMs again, and made with 675 missiles in 2 LRM15s + 2 MLaser ( that 2 Laser got not used often ) more than 380 damage ( there was ams fire and lost my targets from time to time ).

Yesterday I was hit by some LRMs and they did some damage again.
Today I was hit by LRMs and they reduced my armor well.

So I tried again LRMs and they are well balanced now!
Of course you need more than 350 missiles to kill a atlas, but you can kill again with LRMs.
Had a game where I got 7 kill assists and no kill, other games with 1-2 kills and some assists.

So support for team or focused damaged on one target works again.
No more 600+ missiles launched and 8% damage done to one target, like it was after the hotfix.

But one bad thing today was a cata player who disconnected short before I would have killed her/him... Launched more than 400 missiles got him/her from 100% to 33% and then he or she disconnects... Grrrrr!

Thank you very much for repairing the LRMs.

Best wishes
Redbull102

Edited by Redbull102, 15 November 2012 - 03:32 PM.

[TheShadowWalker]

anyone who thinks LRMs are fine the way they are doesn't understand TT or game mechanics. long range MISSLES. for one, guass hits harder and even at longer ranges, yes its a direct fire but generates no heat and is a safe bet for quick kills. LRMS, can indirect fire, deal nearly zip for damage have a maximum range of only 1,000m anything past that no damage. generate a ton of heat, again VERY low damage with a huge spread. launchers are heavy, ammo per ton is reasonably low but cost is insanely high. rearm cost vs assist or kill cbills not worth it. they do almost no damage to armor, i've played an LRM boat since early closed beta, and while generally only gaining 10-20k after rearm, i was fine with that as long as i truely had an effect on the field for my team. now, i have little to no effect. insane costs and lttle to no return for the amount of cbills invested to be a long range support. with all statistics of current damage values vs lrms, it's not there. NOT in any fashion. anyone who wants to play the role constantly for a week using nothing but LRMs and watching overall stats vs costs vs damage out put. and then compares to virtually every other setup out there, you will see what i am saying. i get out damaged by jenners running small lasers meanwhile i'm running 2 lrm 20's and 2 lrm 15's and alpha firing damn near all match. 1980 missles later, 6 small lasers nearly double my damage for no cost of ammo or anything else. make sense? i don't think so. so those who QQ about lrm's being fine or OP need to learn to use the tools at hand, like their brains and cover, AMS and soon ECM. LRM's are WAY under powered and need some attention. don't believe me. GO FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF, play for 1 week in nothing but LRM boats. then take the poll and talk trash. till then, keep your opinions to yourselves.

[Gogopher]

i clicked other so here is my 2cents:

lrms in TT required you to be able to see the mech you were shooting at...just like any weapon...however you could have other mechs spot for you at a -2to hit iirc...this should have been applied to this game...if you spot for your own lrms a nice tight spread should have been used (with the implied increase in damage)...if anyone else spots for you then your spread suffers considerable (more an AOE type weapon using splash damage rather then a direct damage weapon)

lrms in the game now simply arent very reflective of TT and no have a seeking component that simply isnt in TT....now i understand TT isnt the end all be all of making a game work online but i still think the concept is sound...

as lrms now since the nerf they are more annoyance weapons that 'can' kill you over time but most likely not...most mechs have plenty of speed and armor now to close with an lrm boat in direct line of sight and still melt the lrm boat with light nor no internal damge to them...about the only time i care about lrms as a player is if im the one lrming or trying to snipe (neither of which i do much) since lrms seem only to do nice damage to stationary targets...shooting a jenner on the full run...well u might as well name call him/her in chat for all the damage you are going to do to him

[Bitey001]

lol @ 400+ missile kills being exciting. That's 10-full launches of 2 x LRM20 and you didn't even get the kill.
That's a lot of cbills for one (almost) kill.