769 replies to this topic

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I've played a good bit tonight, and my take-away impression is that LRMs are in a very nice place right now.

I've been running an AS7-K with an LRM15, 2 ERLL, and a Gauss (dual AMS, too). Small incoming missile volleys still hurt a little, but that's as it should be. Large incoming volleys still hurt, but don't take you from healthy to dead in seconds. They strip armor from all over your mech, and make you super vulnerable to direct-fire follow-up shots.

I have a friend who I've been dropping with who drives an RS with 2 LL, Gauss, and 2 SRM6s (Artemis). We had a game a couple hours ago where he got caught out a bit and was pounded by LRMs, which stripped a bunch of armor from all over his mech and made it so when the enemy brawlers got in close he just got wrecked. That is what LRMs are for - preparing a target for the main attack force to finish off far more easily than otherwise.

I've certainly found the single LRM15 I have been using to be plenty effective, and it works wonders as a way to prep a target for aimed fire from my Gauss and lasers.

Really, LRMs should serve three purposes. The first is softening (stripping armor from enemies at extreme range before the main battle is joined). The second is fire support (providing assistance to friendlies during the main part of the battle by sending missiles at the targets they're engaged with). The third is crit-seeking (having lots of small damage sources scattered all over a mech practically guarantees that you'll pop some gear when you hit a breached target). Under the current build, they do all three things well without being too good at any of them.

There was a time in CB where LRMs felt super under-powered. They received several damage buffs, plus had their flight paths messed with a goodly bit, and then they wound up with 2.0 damage and nice flight pathing (no crazy vertical jukes to hit targets behind cover). They were very strong at that point, since they did so much damage so quickly from so far away, but you could use terrain to mitigate that somewhat, so they weren't the only weapon worth taking. After the last patch broke the flight path, they really showed what 2.0 damage could do and it was clearly breaking the game. This hot fix, lowering the damage, loosening the spread, and bringing sanity back to the flight paths, has dealt with pretty much all the problems with LRMs that had been lingering for the last few months and which the last patch shoved into the light.

Now all that PGI needs to do is make PPCs worth using (and the larger ACs). Gauss will always be super good, but it shouldn't be the only option, any more than LRMs should have been.

[Long Draw]

All I know is that currently, I'm seeing everyone carrying gauss or streak missiles in their mechs. I can't fathom how the developers can conclude that LRMs were so terribly overpowered, minus the rediculous flight path they had, compared to those two weapons. I mean come on! I've stood on top of the mountain right by the base on caustic with my DDC Atlas with 100 armor front CT, while a gaussapult stood on the hill on the other side of the map by the other base and in 15 seconds, he's gone through all my front CT armor. That's over 1.5km people! And they think Gauss is balanced!!! Or how about streak missiles and the rediculous damage someone does with 3 of them in a hunchback. The kicker is that you don't even have to be looking at who you're firing at in order to hit them! Just have someone behind you targetting them while you run firing SSRMs. That in my mind is the most stupid implementation of any weapon in this game. Reminds me of the replay function on the gun in the movie The Fifth Element.

[AlfalphaCat]

The fact of the matter is LRM lovers need to learn to aim. The kind of crap some ppl pull is stupid, and not really fun for either side. In other words it takes no skill to win, and Mechwarrior should be about skills, not just weapon stats. Otherwise just play TT.

[ZefNinja]

This thread is about LRM's LongDraw, address Streak and Gauss balances in another thread. As to target locks, umm yes thats the point of having an expensive targeting computer that locks onto the target for you, You not in a 1940's WWII vehicle you know?

As to LRM's, I agree with the majority of the above that yes, since the nerf LRM's are in a much better place. They are a support weapon not a entire strategy for the game. Prior to the patch it was silly, light mechs stood no chance if they went into the open to receive even one salvo from a properly set up LRM boat.

AlfalphaCat, on 08 November 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

The fact of the matter is LRM lovers need to learn to aim. The kind of crap some ppl pull is stupid, and not really fun for either side. In other words it takes no skill to win, and Mechwarrior should be about skills, not just weapon stats. Otherwise just play TT.

Your are trolling, if you have something beneficial to add please it or move on. We discussing the changes here not mocking TT.

WarMonkey14, on 08 November 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

umm guys. LRMs are now doing appropriate amounts of damage for a SUPPORT WEAPON!! they can kill you if you are stupid but otherwise function perfectly fine as a SUPPORT WEAPON

Agreed!

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Suskis, on 08 November 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

I understand LRMs were overpowered
BUT
now they are absolutely underpowered.
I have played Battletech for over 25 years and I KNOW what my weapons can do. 4LRM20 is 80 points of max damage and a low average 48 pts of damage. 2 hits it's almost the full armor of a commando. but even after 3 hits I still se nothing more than a yellow leg...
if this is what LRM20 do, what should I expect from a LRM5?

(on a side note, I saw machine gun deal no damage at all)

I've been using an LRM15 and it works just fine. Maybe you are shooting the wrong targets? Speed and cover are the two best defenses against LRMs currently (and pre-hotfix speed was the only one since they ignored cover), so that Commando was likely just outrunning most of the missiles (and the ones that did hit were hitting the trailing leg at time of impact).

Also, you seem to forget that armor points have been doubled across the board. If it would have been 2 solid hits to drop a Commando on the tabletop, you can expect it to be 4 in MWO, and that's assuming they are solid hits and not missing with most of the missiles due to movement.

You might try testing this if you can find a Commando pilot willing to be a target for you. Have him stand at 400 meters, not moving and in the open. Shoot him with your 4 LRM 20s and see how many volleys it takes to drop him. I'd be surprised if it took all that many. You might then try a follow-up, where he runs flat out and you shoot at him. I'd definitely expect it to take many times the volleys to do respectable damage, just from the movement alone.

[h00n]

Specops12, on 08 November 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

I dropped 800 lrms into a hunchback at 280-400 meters, i could see him plain as day the entire time, I only did 25 percent damage to him, lrms are pointless now. and to be honest so are streaks. go back to the pre cry-engine damages, they were fine and pretty balanced. and for please stop catering to pub players who cannot play this game in the first place.

You mean stop catering to your customers?

I bet you never went to school.

[ZefNinja]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 08 November 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

I've been using an LRM15 and it works just fine. Maybe you are shooting the wrong targets? Speed and cover are the two best defenses against LRMs currently (and pre-hotfix speed was the only one since they ignored cover), so that Commando was likely just outrunning most of the missiles (and the ones that did hit were hitting the trailing leg at time of impact).

Also, you seem to forget that armor points have been doubled across the board. If it would have been 2 solid hits to drop a Commando on the tabletop, you can expect it to be 4 in MWO, and that's assuming they are solid hits and not missing with most of the missiles due to movement.

You might try testing this if you can find a Commando pilot willing to be a target for you. Have him stand at 400 meters, not moving and in the open. Shoot him with your 4 LRM 20s and see how many volleys it takes to drop him. I'd be surprised if it took all that many. You might then try a follow-up, where he runs flat out and you shoot at him. I'd definitely expect it to take many times the volleys to do respectable damage, just from the movement alone.

100% there man, LRM's (which I use alot) should never have been in the place they were prior to the nerf. Its good that its been corrected. Give it a week or two and the game will return to normal balance once the novelty of LRM's as a god weapon has worn off the community at large.

[WarMonkey14]

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD! PGI DO NOT LISTEN TO THESE FOOLS!

remember the screaming we just had about LRMs? yeah well, there was a reason for that.

LRMs are a SUPPORT weapon. as in they SUPPORT the team, not kill everything for the team. they are fine the way they are right now. and if you ppl get them buffed again, so help me i will find you and shove the nearest jenner through ur cockpit

edit: left out the if above

Edited by WarMonkey14, 08 November 2012 - 09:27 PM.

[Jerot]

^ Yes they are a support weapon, but as it stands you're better off with literally any other loadout besides an LRM mech on your team. Trust me, I've been playing LRM support since early closed beta. Right now they don't feel right at all, they don't need an effectiveness boost per say, just some consistency.

The problem is they are inconstant now, against a mech standing still out in an open area, they will do great (Probably a little better then they should). But outside of that perfect scenario they under perform, 80% of my volley will miss anything faster then a centurion, but if it connects it can rip a light/medium mech apart. Against another heavy/assault it will do virtually nothing even if they are standing out in an open area.

The damage is fine, the grouping is fine (Could maybe be like 10-15% tighter, lower then damage to compensate) but the angle needs to be raised (it was fine before it was buffed again and made OP) If you look back to how they were before the Artemis patch and general OPness, they were nearly perfect in my opinion. If at that time they were a 100 (Effectiveness on some random scale of my opinion), perhaps now it should be a 95, with the Artemis bringing it closer to 105.

Edited by Jerot, 08 November 2012 - 09:15 PM.

[HC Harlequin]

No.. you guys are completely missing it.

Even if you take the IS into account in the percentage. Say a 614 max armor Atlass with 307 internal for a max of 921. A salvo of 45 missiles on a stationary, non moving.. No AMS Atlas, in the open does less than 3% overall damage per salvo. Even if you go off a 60% missile hit rate for 26-27 missiles equals just over 27 points of damage. So, either the missiles are doing far less than 1.4 damage per missile OR the hit rate with Artemis/Tag on a stationary mech w/o AMS is less than 44%... on a stationary mech. If the % does not include IS, then the numbers drop even more, to well under .7 damage per missile or a hit rate of about 13 missiles out of 45 for about 28% hit rate.

[Sybreed]

hmm, after firing 1080 missiles and having around 75% of them hit, I only ended with 410 damage... something is wrong here...

Not sure if their damage value of 1.7 is really correct. Feels like they do a lot less. Or, there's a big hit detection problem...

[Melcyna]

Debate on too much or too little nerf aside

let's get one thing straight

dmg per missile on an LRM is 1.7 now, and i am not sure why some ppl are doubting this since the firepower stat in mech bay should TELL YOU THIS quite plainly.

Firepower indicates how much damage point you can inflict in an alpha strike assuming all hit, using all weapon in one firing cycle.

So just equip LRM5 for example, strip out all other weapon... divide that by 5 and you get the damage per missile which will be consistent with every LRM.

How many will miss or shot down is a separate story... but the numbers that we know of should be NAILED down and stop budging it around when you are just guessing. Unless there's an indication that the stat mentioned by the system is WRONG, and unless someone can prove it conclusively, then i'd take the number indicated from the game's internal stat as the only correct one.

[Indeed]

Long Draw, on 08 November 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

All I know is that currently, I'm seeing everyone carrying gauss or streak missiles in their mechs. I can't fathom how the developers can conclude that LRMs were so terribly overpowered, minus the rediculous flight path they had, compared to those two weapons. I mean come on! I've stood on top of the mountain right by the base on caustic with my DDC Atlas with 100 armor front CT, while a gaussapult stood on the hill on the other side of the map by the other base and in 15 seconds, he's gone through all my front CT armor. That's over 1.5km people! And they think Gauss is balanced!!! Or how about streak missiles and the rediculous damage someone does with 3 of them in a hunchback. The kicker is that you don't even have to be looking at who you're firing at in order to hit them! Just have someone behind you targetting them while you run firing SSRMs. That in my mind is the most stupid implementation of any weapon in this game. Reminds me of the replay function on the gun in the movie The Fifth Element.

How do you get three of them in a Hunchy? I want this mech, so I can rip out the ssrm and throw in three srm6's. THAT is painful. If you can aim, the dumb fire srm's are much deadlier. If they add guidance to the bigger srm's, then we might have a serious problem...

[Scratx]

WarMonkey14, on 08 November 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD! PGI DO NOT LISTEN TO THESE FOOLS!

remember the screaming we just had about LRMs? yeah well, there was a reason for that.

LRMs are a SUPPORT weapon. as in they SUPPORT the team, not kill everything for the team. they are fine the way they are right now. and you ppl get them buffed again, so help me i will find you and shove the nearest jenner through ur cockpit

We'll see where we stand when ECM gets released, but yeah, before hotfix they were just brutal. My C1 Catapult with Artemis plus TAG was getting 3-5 kills per match.

And that's just two LRM10's.

Yes, LRM10's. TENs. TWENTY MISSILE SALVOS. Four tons of ammo. Missiles would hit from above so tightly that... well, they'd pretty much hit mostly the CT and head.

Wasn't really that fun when the novelty passed and matches turned into who could boat more LRMs...

[WarMonkey14]

guys, 20% (or whatever you guys are arguing it is) accuracy is fine. on a SUPPORT weapon. it's supposed to be a barrage, not a focused shot. the lock is just so the missiles know to hit that general area on the map.

repeat after me:
LRMs are a SUPPORT weapon
LRMs are a SUPPORT weapon
LRMs are a SUPPORT weapon
LRMs are a SUPPORT weapon

continue

[WarMonkey14]

Scratx, on 08 November 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

We'll see where we stand when ECM gets released, but yeah, before hotfix they were just brutal. My C1 Catapult with Artemis plus TAG was getting 3-5 kills per match.

And that's just two LRM10's.

Yes, LRM10's. TENs. TWENTY MISSILE SALVOS. Four tons of ammo. Missiles would hit from above so tightly that... well, they'd pretty much hit mostly the CT and head.

Wasn't really that fun when the novelty passed and matches turned into who could boat more LRMs...

ECM has a whole other balancing act. TT rules state that ECM generates extra heat while active, and ECM is still negated by tag and narc. aka ECM is negated by team play but helps keep LRM focused teams with no real balance of mechs from being very powerful. ECMs also weight 1.5 tons and take up 3 crits right now. tonnage may need to go up depending on it's usefulness, but that's still more than a DHS and takes up the space where a DHS could go and generates heat to boot (possibly).

ECM will be for players who need to scout or tag without taking loads of LRM fire. Those who need to flank. and those who need to snipe without fear of LRMs (guass can still hit someone without targeting folks). in return those mechs will have worse heat efficiency and have less weaponry/ammo/armor and so will be prime targets for mechs who are not running ECMs.

[Kenyon Burguess]

used an lrm 10 on my cent al. most of my missles hit, i saw the armor flash on the light i was shooting at and i got good credit on the damage for 2 assists, and moved in with pulse lasers for 2 kills. cant ask for any more than that. i really enjoy the fact that LRM spammers will have to get down off their hills and work for a kill now.

[Grugore]

I was in a game yesterday. A commando was standing still and took two LRM 20s, and it's armor was reduced by 1%. Something fishy there. Even with AMS, his mech should have been half destroyed. Anyone else have issues like this?

[Chemistry Warden]

Grugore, on 08 November 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

I was in a game yesterday. A commando was standing still and took two LRM 20s, and it's armor was reduced by 1%. Something fishy there. Even with AMS, his mech should have been half destroyed. Anyone else have issues like this?

If this was yesterday, as in before the hotpatch around 10am PST on November 8th, then 2 LRM 20's probably would have cored the guy. Of course it could be that the commando was some kind of disconnect, this game seems to do strange things with people who disconnect.

[HC Harlequin]

LRM 20 is the MOST DAMAGING weapon in the game
LRM 20 is the MOST DAMAGING weapon in the game
LRM 20 is the MOST DAMAGING weapon in the game

lolwut?