144 replies to this topic

[Weiland]

This is more of a personal concern than a particular statement of any kind.

BT has always been about a power creep of sorts. MWO is focused on a general balance for all things, which isn't what the original games were all about.

So, here's my thought process. Either:

• MWO will include Clan mechs and they'll prove a significant power edge over IS mechs, which will obviously provide a balance issue. OR
  
• MWO will include Clan mechs that are heavily nerfed from their originals and depart pretty significantly from the spirit of what makes the Clans "Clan".

Anyone else having this concern? I'm not seeing a straightforward way to avoid both pitfalls. Balance concerns are a big enough issue these days as it is, and yet we still see more and more of the BT canon sacrificed in an attempt to compensate.


Thoughts?

Edited by Weiland, 08 November 2012 - 01:10 AM.

[Nauht]

Considering that clans are scheduled after CW is released it's pretty useless to speculate how PGI will attempt to equalise them.

I agree, with the game currently as is right now, clan mechs would be severely OP. But let's see how they handle CW and if a BV or tonnage or ranking system comes in that would make clan mechs more equal to IS.

[Weiland]

I thought about it for a moment and came to the personal conclusion that I would be perfectly fine if clan mechs counted for more (I.E. 1.5 or 2 IS mechs to a single Clan mech). It would do something towards balance, add a new level of detail to forming a lance, and retain the power creep that is a Clan mech.

Alternately, I could see the potential for every item in a mech (including the mech itself) having a point rating. The matchmaker would then match drops to weight class and combined point value as closely as possible. It could work.

[Pangorin]

I think a balance like Weiland said (1.5 or 2 IS Mechs vs. 1 Clan Mechs) will not work, because ypu need to take into consideration that Clans will also be "organized", that means there will also be "Premades"! That would cause to a very high win-ratio for ClanMechs.
Sure, just a guess!!!
But due to this there needs to be a balance around 12IS-Mechs vs. 10ClanMechs, and to be honest, I think then there will be a little disapointment within the community.
The otherside is, that PGI needs to avoid a Win-Ratio of 80-90% for ClanMechs, it needs to be around 50%! Otherwise no one will play IS-Mechs anymore. In that case I already can imagine some Topics in this forum!!!
And the solution with extrem expensive ClanMechs will also lead to trouble (P2W, or 20 times stomped to play 1 match with a ClanMech)
It will be very hard for PGI to get the Clans into the game and in any case there will be complains!

[Morang]

Severely overpowered, severely outnumbered. I don't want to fight castrated clanners.

[Hoshi Toranaga]

Let them first balance the PPCs which are utterly useless at the moment, and then worry about clan mechs....

[Pangorin]

Thats what Iám talking about, Morang!
Example: lets say 12 IS vs. 5 Claner, with an one on one balance of 80% Win for Claners:
That is what I guess you mean! That would lead to the following situation. Claners Premade win almost every battle, no chance for IS! Only "premadeIS" would have a chance (maybe). That sounds good? No, because then there is no way for Lonewolf casual players to play the game! And you have to think (actually PGI) about ALL players!

I think, there is no way around "castration"!

[Weiland]

Morang, on 08 November 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

Severely overpowered, severely outnumbered. I don't want to fight castrated clanners.

I would upvote this option as well, personally.

As for the rest... win percentages, premades vs. non... it's all trivial nonsense there. The win percentage has not nearly as much to do with the mech as the team and the pilot behind the mech. The current issues we have will be balanced out by then by the ELO system (hopefully, anyway) and we won't have to hear any more of this wah-wah about premade teams being unfair.

And besides, that's off-topic.


Returning to the point, I wouldn't mind if it was even as far as 1 Clan = 2 IS. Preserve the epic.

[Pangorin]

You need to think about the possibility that there are also good Claners!
I think that would not work, but I do not have a CrystalBall, so let´s see what happens!

Weiland, on 08 November 2012 - 01:57 AM, said:

I would upvote this option as well, personally.

As for the rest... win percentages, premades vs. non... it's all trivial nonsense there. The win percentage has not nearly as much to do with the mech as the team and the pilot behind the mech. The current issues we have will be balanced out by then by the ELO system (hopefully, anyway) and we won't have to hear any more of this wah-wah about premade teams being unfair.

And besides, that's off-topic.


Returning to the point, I wouldn't mind if it was even as far as 1 Clan = 2 IS. Preserve the epic.

And the Win-Ratio got a lot to do with the success of the game, do you really think there will be a lot of people playing IS when they lose 80% of all matches?

[Protection]

In fairness, you are worrying about issue #11432 facing PGI, and they are still sorting out issues #37 through #68.

If we even get to the clan invasion, so many other things that are still broken, bugged, imbalanced, yet-to-be-implemented, or not working will have changed the game so completely that we wont be able to make judgements about it now in this state.


Basically, it's a way down the road. Worry about what's on our plate right now, and next year's main course can be planned out after this months groceries are bought.

[Urza Mechwalker]

That is all pretty easy to solve. Clan mechs can only be piloted by pubies (no group) and are in 8 man lances against 12 man premade ISs.


Balance issue solves.


Also.. give us proper DHS that are necessary for IS mechs to remotely have ahcance against clans.

[Gunghoe]

Pangorin, on 08 November 2012 - 01:47 AM, said:

I think a balance like Weiland said (1.5 or 2 IS Mechs vs. 1 Clan Mechs) will not work, because ypu need to take into consideration that Clans will also be "organized", that means there will also be "Premades"! That would cause to a very high win-ratio for ClanMechs.
Sure, just a guess!!!
But due to this there needs to be a balance around 12IS-Mechs vs. 10ClanMechs, and to be honest, I think then there will be a little disapointment within the community.
The otherside is, that PGI needs to avoid a Win-Ratio of 80-90% for ClanMechs, it needs to be around 50%! Otherwise no one will play IS-Mechs anymore. In that case I already can imagine some Topics in this forum!!!
And the solution with extrem expensive ClanMechs will also lead to trouble (P2W, or 20 times stomped to play 1 match with a ClanMech)
It will be very hard for PGI to get the Clans into the game and in any case there will be complains!

well because it is only clan mechs They should only be played on clan warfare not normal. because i suspect clan warfare will be for actual clans too, thus bringing real spirit to the game and added mode more intertaining. you can have both clan and inner sphere because most of the warfare will be all premades.

and have inner sphere separate with only the inner sphere mechs.

[Urza Mechwalker]

Pangorin, on 08 November 2012 - 01:47 AM, said:

I think a balance like Weiland said (1.5 or 2 IS Mechs vs. 1 Clan Mechs) will not work, because ypu need to take into consideration that Clans will also be "organized", that means there will also be "Premades"! That would cause to a very high win-ratio for ClanMechs.
Sure, just a guess!!!
But due to this there needs to be a balance around 12IS-Mechs vs. 10ClanMechs, and to be honest, I think then there will be a little disapointment within the community.
The otherside is, that PGI needs to avoid a Win-Ratio of 80-90% for ClanMechs, it needs to be around 50%! Otherwise no one will play IS-Mechs anymore. In that case I already can imagine some Topics in this forum!!!
And the solution with extrem expensive ClanMechs will also lead to trouble (P2W, or 20 times stomped to play 1 match with a ClanMech)
It will be very hard for PGI to get the Clans into the game and in any case there will be complains!

As I said.. just make clans unable to premade! And that is not far fetching .. it simulates LORe where clan warriors were expected to fight without ANY help

[Xelrah]

They won't be overpowered because most of them will cook themself with dhs being 1.4.

[Terror Teddy]

You have to first define WHAT makes the Clan mechs powerful.

Tonnage: As IS
Armor Values: Same as IS weight classes
Equipment: Clan version takes less space and criticals
Weapons: Range/Damage/Crit/Weight
Slots: Probably a mix between Omni Slots and a few Fixed [Mad Cat iconic missile shoulders for example]
Engines: AFAIK Clan engines cannot be swapped for another one due to being Omnimechs

They will be more powerful tonne for tonne but they take damage just like anything else and will cost A LOT to get.

Also, think of the repair costs.

They are not mythical walking gods, they are slightly more advanced machines and has just as much armor as an Inner Sphere mech with the same equipment.

The IS will suffer from less internal equipment/guns though.

[Weiland]

Urza Mechwalker, on 08 November 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

As I said.. just make clans unable to premade! And that is not far fetching .. it simulates LORe where clan warriors were expected to fight without ANY help

BECUZ PREMADE R EVIL AND OP OOOOOOOOOOO NERF TEAMWORK

*sigh*

Definitely not.

[Rutok]

A lot of posts here read like you want 2 opposed things in one. Clanners should be scary, their Mechs should be advanced and powerfull.. but they should loose half the time!

That makes no sense.

I personally think that PGI will simply dumb down clan tech to be on even footing with IS tech by the point they arrive. Which is really sad.. in the lore, IS got their ***** kicked until they got their act together. They had to advance technology, they had to change their unit builds (4 mech lance vs. 5 mech star).. and they had to train harder to be able to beat this new enemy. We players will probably never get that chance.

And just giving more Mechs to IS is also not going to help. Think about the matches now.. if you have one disconnect and 1 suicide farmer on your team you are probably going to lose the round (in pugs at least). When a premade knew in advance that they would have more Mechs than the opponent they would find ways to simply overwhelm them.

[Protection]

And stop saying cost!

Cost is a lazy and terrible way to try to balance in game performance.

[Triggerhippy]

I thought it was supposed to be a clan star (5mechs) = 2 IS lances

[Triggerhippy]

Urza Mechwalker, on 08 November 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

As I said.. just make clans unable to premade! And that is not far fetching .. it simulates LORe where clan warriors were expected to fight without ANY help

You clearly know nothing of course clans can team up noob, but it will be 5 v 8 teams and yes the is very winnable for the clans - a 4 man premade in IS mechs can stomp an 8 man pug team - should be very easy for the clans to do it.