130 replies to this topic

[Wispsy]

rythex, on 10 November 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

Obviously you're just missing the correlation between bad netcode for mechs doing 90km+ which results in warping/jittering for other people trying to shoot the light mech.

The warping/jittering makes it next to impossible to lead a target because of it which then gives the light mech some impression that he's an amazing driver.. when in fact it's just bad code making other shots unable to connect, that coupled with the terrible implementation of server side authentication or verification of some of the ballistic weapons adds even MORE latency waiting on the server to give the "OK" that you're not hacking.


I know it's a pretty huge concept for you to wrap your head around, but you'll get it maybe one day... probably not.

The knock downs isn't even the issue, its the fact the NET CODE is complete trash at relaying the positioning or predicting the location of the high speed mechs on other clients and the lights essentially just warp/jitter around. Go and play a 50-80 km/h mech and watch the lights on screen, its ridiculous.

Anyways, I'm done with this thread, I'll just bookmark it and bump it when the netcode is fixed (2013) and read the whines/cries when a bunch of light players get trashed and have to relearn how to play. "oh I keep dying when I engage 5 heavy assault mechs"

You have a bad pc? I have only noticed warping on a select few occasions (outside of people getting stuck on terrain esp if using jj) and most of the times I have seen it has not been on a light but on much bigger slower things (presumably as it is easier for those using it as they appear to have massive lag and can never aim or do anything effective....). As i said though this is on people with abnormally high pings and in this day and age they really should have a better connection if they wish to be effective on internet games If they have fun as it is or just cannot resist the urge to play well I do not mind letting them try and have some fun they will be crazy laggy even when netcode is better, I saw them occasionally b4 they messed up the netcode too and still could not hit them unless I aimed with pure prediction skills!

[rythex]

Nope, I have a 25mbit adsl connection (38-42ms ping in game), 670GTX and a I7 w/ 16 gigs of ram, it's not me. it's the game.

But don't take my word for it, I'm only a network tech by trade

Edited by rythex, 10 November 2012 - 10:36 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

rythex, on 10 November 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

Obviously you're just missing the correlation between bad netcode for mechs doing 90km+ which results in warping/jittering for other people trying to shoot the light mech.

The warping/jittering makes it next to impossible to lead a target because of it which then gives the light mech some impression that he's an amazing driver.. when in fact it's just bad code making other shots unable to connect, that coupled with the terrible implementation of server side authentication or verification of some of the ballistic weapons adds even MORE latency waiting on the server to give the "OK" that you're not hacking.


I know it's a pretty huge concept for you to wrap your head around, but you'll get it maybe one day... probably not.

The knock downs isn't even the issue, its the fact the NET CODE is complete trash at relaying the positioning or predicting the location of the high speed mechs on other clients and the lights essentially just warp/jitter around. Go and play a 50-80 km/h mech and watch the lights on screen, its ridiculous.

Definitely a huge concept. Certainly will have more trouble with that one than the whole 'pro sniper' image you put on. Unfortunately, you've yet to realize i play not just a Jenner. See that gold forum icon? Yeah. Bit pointless to pay that much and not use the Catapult, Hunchback and Atlas that came with it. Imaginary that.

Now here's something to consider: In the hundreds of games i've played since Open Beta and before, i've encountered two, Two, Light mechs that did anything remotely considered 'warping'. For one, my connection is not over 100ms, ever. Two, i realize that bad terrain clipping has just as much to do with 'warping' as a bad connection does. That means it's not merely the netcode, because just about any game with poor clipping and high ms will cause character warping regardless of how solid the network coding is. It's not economically feasible for PGI to employ the technology and man hours required to give seamless, warp-free gameplay... quite simply, expensive. The best they can do is adjust the terrain clipping to make it smooth enough so that every little rock and bump wont affect your mech's movement, or did you miss the fact they already removed the effect terrain had on mech speed - You no longer change speeds going up and down gradients. Cutting down on the amount of information traffic.. i wonder why!

As for the coding, sure, they can tweak it... but there's only so much you can do for a 300+ ms ping player in the short time frame people are demanding. So why not go out and spend a few thousand bucks to rent some dedicated servers in Europe, Asia and Australia... is more likely to help than anything you say here. While you're at it, hire them an extra team of programmers and designers.

[rythex]

I'm playing with a 40ms ping and this happens to me.. my connection is rock solid, no packet loss.. this is what some jenners/commandos/ravens do on other peoples screens.. Notice how everything else on screen is smooth? Notice the Jenner..? That's what most lights are doing recently (warping/jitter)

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=OgEaBWJhbUI


Now that I think about it, I think the issue for PGI might be issues with multiple mechs targeting and shooting at the high speed lights and the server side checking for damage gets bogged down, I have noticed the warping/jittering mainly when multiple mechs are firing at them.

Edited by rythex, 10 November 2012 - 11:00 AM.

[Aegis Kleais]

PanzerMagier, on 10 November 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

Light scouts or mechs that go 100+kph, are Currently the strongest mech type (statistically) in the game because the devs are too sloppy to fix bugs that should have been fixed long ago.

1. Unit collision is still off, cant knock them over

2. unit damage collision is off, cant ram them

3. The introduction of ferro armour and endo steel improved medium to light mechs ONLY, they are hardly worth anything on a heavy - assault mech

4. Double heatsinks now with 1.4 dissipation gives increased heat dissipation to lighter mechs (who carry less of them) than to heavier mechs that have LESS dissipation when comparing pre and post patch double heatsinks

5. There is still A LOT of netcode to be trimmed up around fast mechs, my lasers physically hit the mech, I see the sparks fly and yet my reticule do not flash red.

Why I am struggling to kill scouts with mediums/assaultmechs now? I used to easily blast them to bits without a second thought... Now, however...

I'll leave it at that, I think I've said enough to express my opinion.

Yeah, it's pretty aggravating.

Now, I love PGI as much as the next person (sans Paul, of course), but this problem with lights and their lag-armor (made worse by the points you mentioned) has been around for so long, I don't think PGI can actually fix it.

As such, Jenners and Cicadas (though oddly, not Commandos) are like 100+kph Atlases. Utter nightmares to come against, and it lets a lot of those pilots be a lot more offensive than it should be, but there's just not much you can do about it.

[Myzon]

Malzel, on 10 November 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

I'm just going to level with you guys, I'm new. I come from other online games that are fully released but always under development, meaning that the game is always being tweaked and re-tweaked, and players are always complaining about how this is overpowered, that's underpowered, the game is all out of wack, the Devs suck, etc. I'm used to that.

I say that because the complaining, griping, and hating on the Devs on these boards is far beyond what it is on the games I'm from, and this game hasn't even been released yet. Guys, remember the part where this is a beta release, as in, "not finished," as in, "there are going to be some issues"? If you're going to move into a house that's still under construction, don't call up the landlord and cry because it gets drafty at night.

I started playing a day or two after Open Beta, and in the week or two I've been here, there's been one big patch and then a follow-up two days later, that addressed almost everything that had been racking up the forum hate before they came out. That means that your Devs were not only listening to you, but they probably knew about that stuff and were working on it before you even started trashing them about it.

It takes my fully-released, fully-funded games months to work out, test, and release patches like that. You guys have a great team at the wheel here, so chill out. There are bugs and glitches, and a game on the internet is always going to lag, but this game isn't even close to release and it's already awesome. If you get to the point where you're not having fun, take a break, have a drink, score a dame, or whatever else is fun for you and try not to bash the folks who are working hard to give you something fun to do.

If you really just can't take it, you could always wait and come back when the game is, you know, finished.

In the meantime, I'm going to have a blast killing giant robots with other giant robots, glitches, lag, and wonky hitboxes be damned.

^^^ I agree completely with this statement. This game is in beta, look to the right side after you log in and you will see it. Letting the devs know there is a problem is one thing, but 4 pages of arguing about something you personally can't fix is a waste of time for everyone involved. That being said, please continue, I do enjoy watching people make fools of themselves. /Rant

Edited by Myzon, 10 November 2012 - 11:09 AM.

[pedropars]

Ssh! Dont tell all the jenner pilots that they arent dodging all the lasers and autocannons like pro players! They will come with incredible arguments such as : Learn to aim!

Seriously now if the problem is with me,how come i can hit any mech with no problems,at short and long range with no problems at all,but when its a jenner i dont do damage even when i see the lasers hitting him?

[Rokuzachi]

After PGI has admitted that there are netcode issues on multiple occassions, and has also tried to fix it multiple times, I seriously hope that no one seriously thinks that this isn't a client/server issue and that it's somehow entirely skill-related or PC specs related. This has nothing to do with being a 'pro sniper' and everything to do with the fact that on your enemy's client, it looks like he just landed a direct hit on your cockpit/CT with his alpha strike, but on your client, he just shot the ground 15 meters behind you.

[cyberFluke]

http://mwomercs.com/...aced-hit-boxes/

END OF THREAD.

[BigJim]

Aegis Kleais, on 10 November 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

As such, Jenners and Cicadas (though oddly, not Commandos) are like 100+kph Atlases.

I dunno, I find Commandos harder to hit than any of the other fast movers, and I've always considered the Commando chassis to be more laggy than any other, since I started in June.

Edited by BigJim, 10 November 2012 - 11:31 AM.

[Imagine Dragons]

I find that the humanoid mechs are the most easy to kill, considering they have the larger front profile compared to the chicken walkers...

[BigJim]

Probably, but Lights have so little armour it makes little difference, I'm talking about lag-sheilding, or hit-boxes being of centre, or whatever the problem may be - Whatever it is, I feel the Commando has it worse than other chassis'.

[mechymike]

yet 1 hit from a gausscat = dead scout or atleast crippled...

[Wolfways]

Aquilus, on 10 November 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

Skirmisher is and should be a viable role for appropriately equipped light mechs. Your claims of behaving like a "mini assault" are absurd, as lights have a fraction of the armour and firepower of assaults. Armour is doubled on *all* mechs, not just lights, so I don't see how that factors into the equation at all.

Actually lights have more armour than any other class. I'm amazed that people still don't see this.

In TT you roll to see where your shot hit and apply damage to that area...on every class of mech. This being the case, mechs with more armour have a better chance of lasting longer.

In MWO you choose where to aim and apply damage to that area. When was the last time you chose which area to hit on a Jenner that wasn't afk? Damage applied to Jenners from multiple hits will be spread across different areas, while a slow moving assault mech can be hit over and over in the same section.

Therefore it takes much more firepower to kill a Jenner than it does an Atlas.

[mechymike]

i'd have to say thats wrong... i can tear limbs off lights pretty fast, i just have to be good with my aim. it doesn't take more firepower, it takes more precision.

if you are in a mega slow mover, it shouldn't matter where you hit them, because your alpha strike hitting them alone would be enough to scare them off or bring them near death, no matter where it hits. losing a leg is a death sentence for lights, losing an arm makes them do almost no damage at all.

Edited by mechymike, 10 November 2012 - 12:51 PM.

[Aquilus]

Wolfways, on 10 November 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

When was the last time you chose which area to hit on a Jenner that wasn't afk?

5 minutes ago. I killed a Jenner by legging it. Lining up your shots is the key. Your inability to hit specific areas of light mechs does not alter the armour values of said mechs, that's an absurd notion. It is true that aiming at a fast moving target is more difficult than a stationary one, and this is obviously a large part of the defense of light mechs. If you stop, you die. As for heavier mechs, you're meant to distribute the damage you take by rotating your torso, etc. Just because you're slow doesn't mean that you have to stand still and let people shoot you in the face.

[Tempered]

Another "I can't shoot, so nerf the lights" thread. All I can say is if lights have it so easy, why are you not in one.

Wolfways, on 10 November 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Actually lights have more armour than any other class. I'm amazed that people still don't see this.

In TT you roll to see where your shot hit and apply damage to that area...on every class of mech. This being the case, mechs with more armour have a better chance of lasting longer.

In MWO you choose where to aim and apply damage to that area. When was the last time you chose which area to hit on a Jenner that wasn't afk? Damage applied to Jenners from multiple hits will be spread across different areas, while a slow moving assault mech can be hit over and over in the same section.

Therefore it takes much more firepower to kill a Jenner than it does an Atlas.

I hit jenners exactly where I want to all the time, with lasers. If you can't aim, get some ssrms. Seriously, mediums and up carry two to four times the fire power of a light. If you can't figure out how to deal with a fast moving target with all that fire power then you should probably just quit.

Edited by Tempered, 10 November 2012 - 01:02 PM.

[Wolfways]

Aquilus, on 10 November 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

5 minutes ago. I killed a Jenner by legging it. Lining up your shots is the key. Your inability to hit specific areas of light mechs does not alter the armour values of said mechs, that's an absurd notion. It is true that aiming at a fast moving target is more difficult than a stationary one, and this is obviously a large part of the defense of light mechs. If you stop, you die. As for heavier mechs, you're meant to distribute the damage you take by rotating your torso, etc. Just because you're slow doesn't mean that you have to stand still and let people shoot you in the face.

That's my point. You leg a Jenner first to make it an easier target. You don't have to leg an Atlas first.
Obviously it doesn't alter the armour values, on each part of the mech, but if the mech is too fast for you to choose a point to aim at (a factor that depends on ability to aim, connection speed, lag ,etc.) then your shots will hit multiple areas.

Tempered, on 10 November 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

I hit jenners exactly where I want to all the time

lol okay.

[Parnage Winters]

The netcode could use some work, it's better then last patch and generally manageable but you still need to lead shots often and shots that you swore should of hit do not.

Not sure why you guys are trying to up your ego's on who's more skilled, that's not really the point that's trying to be conveyed. No one except you really cares about how awesome you think you are killing scouts or piloting them. If you want to brag make another thread about it?

Any mech starting to go over 100kph tends to have issues being targeted due to the current limitations of the netcode that's just simple truth as been confirmed by dev's twice now(See: Kotaku AMA and Chris K's Known issue on hitbox issues) With the removal of collision and this light mechs have an interesting advantage being harder to hit at times and able to run into the tail end of bigger mechs without worry of knocking themselves over.

Not much you can do except deal with it. I've found fighting the faster mechs in city sections/ places where they are more likely to slow down to not hit a wall/building can give you the clear shots you need. Also packing a pair of SRM2's can help greatly in dealing with such. *shrug*

[De La Fresniere]

PanzerMagier, on 10 November 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

I used to easily blast them to bits without a second thought

Well then, you see how that could be interpreted as poor game balance. If Lights were significantly inferior and could be easily destroyed by any Mech over 50 tons, no one would play them.

Besides, while collision damage is low (1 damage as far as I know), it's there, and it'll often cause your mech to keep teleporting a few steps back and re-take the collision damage repeatedly. It's still not a good idea to run into a big mech's legs.

And look at their armor values, especially in the back... running away from a big mech makes you both easier to hit and exposes your weakest points, a Light just can't do that. It has to run circles around the bigger mech (basically moving out of its peripheral vision).

I'll agree that they have to be fixed so that they actually take full damage when you're shooting at them, though. That's a pretty huge issue. But really, that should be enough to balance them properly.