791 replies to this topic

[Scratx]

Are you sure the health % doesn't include the crittable components of a mech, like weapons, ammo, engines, heatsinks, etc, therefore making it look like you're shaving off a lot less from the mech than you really are? Most mechs, in any case, die long before they even reach 50%...

[Roadbuster]

Just tested LRMs again yesterday. Catapult C4 with 2x LRM20 (720 rounds), no TAG, no Artemis, 2x StreakSRM2 (100 rounds) and 2 Medium Lasers.

As I always do, I fired my LRMs at targets in open areas only. No cover for them.
After running out of LRM ammo and when in range I use my ML and SSRM.

Short story, 5 matches on 3 different maps (Caustic, Frozen, Forest).
Damage with all 720 LRMs fired every time (if avaliable at TAGed mechs) and about 25-50% SSRMs used would always be around 300-400dmg including lasers.

720 LRMs x1,7dmg/m = 1224 potential damage
26 SSRMs x2,5dmg/m = 65 potential damage

1289 potential damage without lasers.

Let's say I dealt 400 damage in a game.
That would mean more than 60% of my missiles missed the target. Even without cover and some of them with TAG.

That doesn't seem right to me.


After that, I changed to 2x Medium Pulse Lasers and 4x Streak SRMs with 400 rounds of ammo and suddely my damage jumped from 300-400 to 400-800...

[4er3BaPa]

Roadbuster, on 15 November 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

That doesn't seem right to me.

Yeah, that doesn't seem right to ALL (except for CBills-booster users, without comments for this)
With nerfed LRM's, faulty targeting systems, overspend for reloading and speed-lag hitting bug...
LRM - choice for mazochist... i'm forced to use it with redball in a mouth

[vaakuum]

Sry guys, but what means supporting mech?

It can cause damage against any mech, but cant kill any type alone?

or it should be able to cause enough damage against big ones to help the teammates to kill the big one, but have to own a good firepower, which should be able to kill the light ones alone, if he had the good situation?

Last night, with my A1, when i was unable to support an atlas:

In the water on the fores colony map, distance between 450 and 550, i see a light mech (jenner) circling around our altlas. Atlas of course cant overmanouver this fast guy, so just get the hit and hit and hit from him...

I locked with my own sight this jenner, and start to shot him with 2*15 LRM...after the 6-th dual shot, (and as i can count right 6*2*15 LRM= 180 LRM = 1 ton of LRM, which price is ... ohhh better not to know) he still not have any critical damage.

The story dont end now, i started to go closer (about 220) with my A1 to use the 4*ssrm's too (which were nerfed not so long ago too ), and i risked i become a target since i move out from my cover, but wanted to help that Atlas, and really was soo clear position to kill the jenner, which is incredible rare for me.

on may way to the targeted distance an enemy commando arrived, and started to hit me. I dont take care of him, since i known i have no chance to kill him, if i cant kill the jenner in better killing situation. And the commando killed me faster with his wepons when i was in moving, as i could kill the ligth one with 2*LRM15 and 4*ssrm) , which dont take care of me... i shot on this jenner about 2 tons of LRM and about 4*2*5= 40 SSRM. Because of heat management i was unable to shot more...and i died.

After my death this 2 light killed the atlas.

Since the distance was good enough and the spotted jenner was circling around an another mech, i was able to keep him in lock for the LRM's and ssrm's continuously.


What is the cause i cant kill him?
-the LRM and SSRM dont have enough damage?
-the LRM and SSRM cant hit the target, though they are perfectly locked with own sight and they impact behind the fast target?

I dont know, but this is the GIGALOLL, but im sad, it is true.

[4er3BaPa]

"Must-nerfed Warrior Online"

[Terror Teddy]

The problem with LRM's is not the damage - it's how they were implemented from start.

1. They are too easy to use
2. They require no direct LOS to use
3. There is no equipment required to be able to use indirect fire
4. Always parabolic arc - use parabolic when indirect and straight line narrow cone when firing direct LOS
5. Area saturation on indirect fire but little spread when firing direct
6. No maximum range on how far away your spotter is.
7. No requirement for improved scanner to pick up spotter far away.

Point 5 and 6 is something that is from WoT. basically unless your team mate is within radio/scanner distance of both mechs they cannot show you what they see.

[vaakuum]

#3, #6 and #7 could be really strange
i think it can be solved: for example u can just shot the Tagged ones if in cover ...
or just can shot covered enemy, who is seen by teammate under 500/400 or 300 distance
or have to use the artemis modul to shot enemy in cover, seen by any teammate

[Terror Teddy]

vaakuum, on 16 November 2012 - 05:16 AM, said:

#3, #6 and #7 could be really strange
i think it can be solved: for example u can just shot the Tagged ones if in cover ...
or just can shot covered enemy, who is seen by teammate under 500/400 or 300 distance
or have to use the artemis modul to shot enemy in cover, seen by any teammate

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/C3_Network

The C3 network as modules for shooter and spotter would solve the "everyone can spot" issue.

7 is different.

Basically you can receive information about a target regardless of distance from your partner.

If your targeting radar goes 500 meters and your spotter is beyond that range you should require something that boosts your communication range for targeting - like the http://www.sarna.net...geting_computer

Now, for IS that tech isn't available until 2063 so another viable name can be applied. My point is that nothing should be free.

Right now indirect targeting is too bloody simple.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Actually double LRM15 doing 30*1,8=54dmg like about 50% missiles miss then its 27 dmg.Double gauss shoot doing 30 dmg.Dual Gaiss are actually easier to use due range(almost 2 times range like LRM) and you dont need spotter and you dont even need to have target in target reticle(i.e.both of you can have more than 50% mech behind cover) and you can even fire.So can you tell me what is more powerful?

And if you can say firing LRMs is bloody simple means ure such a noob always hammered down on open field+you never even tried to play LRM support.I played both of those build and i have to say using gauss rifles is WAY easier.

Edited by JudgeDeathCZ, 16 November 2012 - 06:24 AM.

[MayGay]

I agree, LRMs are useless as a primary, and almost useless as a secondary

[Livewyr]

The problem with LRMs is that Artemis is too expensive for what it *doesn't* offer...

[Kaziganthi]

wanderer, on 15 November 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

And I can mount more of them, too. If I swapped in a pair of Clan LRM 15's for the IS ones, I'd have myself 7 extra tons to play with- and more critical space to boot. That translates into more performance, period. Clan LRMs are not IS LRMs. They are, in every sense of the word, a different animal. Their DHS are different. Their weapons vary wildly in performance vs. IS equivalents. There is no "balance" between the two, nor should their be.



Wait till they start crying about medium lasers that hit like large lasers. You know the Clan ER ML?

How about large pulse lasers that hit IS ER LL ranges? For more damage?

Clantech is completely different levels of discussion than IS tech. And will cause it's own kind of screaming. Apples and oranges. It doesn't even remotely belong in discussions about IS LRMs- the two may as well be entirely different weapons thanks to performance.

And now your comparing apples to oranges.

At least I compared the same weapon systems, your comparing Large Pulses to IS ER Large Lasers. How about comparing the same weapon types. I also used in my statement going up against CLAN brawlers, nice you omitted that out in your response.

The only differences between a CLAN LRM and an IS LRM is the removal of the miminum range, weight and critical slots, that's it. No change in damage, no change in weapon range. If you want to compare the same type of energy weapon lets pick one...

Lets go for the good old ER PPC. TT stats

IS Version

• 15 heat
  
• 10 damage
  
• 7 tonnes
  
• 3 crits
  
• 23 Hex range (690m)

Clan

• 15 heat
  
• 15 damage
  
• 6 tonnes
  
• 2 crit
  
• 23 hex range (690m)

Clan will always be better than IS, thats a given, seeing as they are a militaristic culture that were supposed to 400 years ahead of the IS. What most are saying here is that LRM's are a support weapon and support weapons shouldn't be able to solo kill any mech on the field. Well that's just wrong.

Even in todays warfare would you think any sane tank commander would order his unit through a constant barrage of artillery, and go "Hey boys, it's only support fire, it's not going to do much but scratch the ablative armour off us".

[FenrisWulffe]

I agree completely. LRM's are not worth the tonnage or the c-bills. I don't want them to be overpowered just better then they are currently.

[Kaziganthi]

Terror Teddy, on 16 November 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

The problem with LRM's is not the damage - it's how they were implemented from start.

1. They are too easy to use
2. They require no direct LOS to use
3. There is no equipment required to be able to use indirect fire
4. Always parabolic arc - use parabolic when indirect and straight line narrow cone when firing direct LOS
5. Area saturation on indirect fire but little spread when firing direct
6. No maximum range on how far away your spotter is.
7. No requirement for improved scanner to pick up spotter far away.

Point 5 and 6 is something that is from WoT. basically unless your team mate is within radio/scanner distance of both mechs they cannot show you what they see.

1. As easy as SSRM, and timing them does take some skill as well as knowing if your hitting a mountain 1km away or the target.

2. Actually they do. Either the firers direct LOS or the spotters. No LOS from either means missiles cannot lock and will impact on the ground.

3. What do you by "equipment required to be able to use indirect fire". Are you talking TAG, NARC or the spotter having to relay the enemies position back to the LRM mech. In the latter, all mechs in your unit get fed the same information about enemy locations. The C3 Computer from the TT version was meant to allow the firer to use the range of the spotter for their hit rolls. In MWO it just tranfers to spotiing and target location.

4. Any Longe Range misssile should follow a parabolic arc, as they need to clear terrain. Even todays artillery does the same. Normally any artillery or tank round that doesn't, means the target is that close you don't see the arc.

5. Area saturation is actually happening on both direct and indirect fire at the moment, which is why LRM are doing very low amounts of damage.

6. Thats what GPS feed back through integrated communication systems does. Some of todays artillery can fire 36km's unassisted (50km's assisted) away. How is the spotter supposed to give firing corrections back to the unit if had to shout that back, or was limited to a 1-2km range.

7. LOS picks up a spotter in MWO, just like it picks up the target for the spotter.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 16 November 2012 - 12:47 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Xyberviri, on 15 November 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

I only have 1 LRM boat and thats my founder cat because it has the bonus to payouts, thats the only one i use because when i win with it i win big but when i loose with it i loose hard.

While you occassionally play one, it hardly makes you an expert, so I will view your comments with your own admitted limited knowledgebase.

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The problem with LRMS is that before it was easy to do big damage while still being totally clueless about how they worked or what the hell a missle lock was, people just fire them off and think they will hit the target because its highlited.

I started in MWO toward the later end of the closed beta, but I've never played the game when it was possible to just shoot missles at a mech, without a lock, and get 'big damage'. If there ever was a time when that was possible, it's not been that way for a very long time, so I'm not sure this applies any more, therefore in my opinion, this is kind of a spurious argument, so I won't comment more on it.

Quote

then they added Narcs and Tags, this changed the game, most LRM pain comes from being tagged, if you have a competent lrm captain and a good scout you can do serious damage to a mech, but when you have teams of players with 3 lrm boats and 1 scout getting thrown into match making it seriously upsets the balance with non teamed randoms and freeloaders.

Then the free loaders and randoms cry on the forums and QQ about not being fair and how the game is pay to win and they nerf something here because of it.

people really need to learn to shut up and just play the game. LRMS are supposed to hurt when they do hit you, and an atlas is supposed to be able to shrug off a direct hit of 40 lrms from one cat. But if that atlas doesn't go to take out that cat it shouldn't be able to close the gap and solo it(at least not with out suffering serious damage)

All valid points. It's very obvious the efficacy of LRMs has been severely stunted to levels BELOW the last patch. I was under the impression that the hot fix when it came out was to return LRMs to that level, but the affect of killing the launch angle, widening the spread, and reducing the damage did far more than just revert to previous state.

Likewise, I was suprised at the rapidity and voraciousness of this particular patch. It was done in such a manner as to make me believe that someone at PGI was personally upset. After all, lots of other serious balance issues still exist and have existed for MONTHS. Why LRMs were leapt onto like this... Well, it was odd.

Also, I agree those lazy or ignorant masses of 'Lone wolves' who feel they deserve an 'equal chance' at winning as opposed to someone who has taken the time to find and join a group of like minded individuals and learn to play as a coordinated team with those individuals, have ZERO to say on anything of the aspects related to coordinated team play.

As effective LRM usage requires at least two people to cooperate and coordinate efforts the "lone wolf" individual should learn that he too needs to work with a team to avoid most of that brutal damage. Crying because he can't run out into an open field and pew-pew-pew his little self-proclaimed uber-l33t heart out, well... It's just silly and elicites responses like, "Wahhh, stupid moron. No you can't have it ALL your way..."

[Dimento Graven]

Dauq, on 15 November 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

Haha there is nothing wrong with LRM. Energy weapons were nerfed as well. With the exception of Gauss, other weapons are pretty balanced, in fact missiles are still a bit too strong.

Before a direct fire assault mech had to basically hide till the opponent ran out of Ammo or sneak beneath it's minimum fire range, which is completly ridiculous for an Atlas to be expected to do to a Catapult.

Oh really? It's rediculous for a 'mech to be expected to use cover to avoid damage?

Why because the Atlas is the biggest 'mech on the field and should be able to do anything, including leap over tall buildings and raise the dead?

Give me a break... Yes, ALL 'mechs, including other missle boats should have to worry about takeing damage from missles, regardless of what size 'mech is lobbing them.

Quote

When a direct fire mech has line of sight of a full missile mech in it's range it should prevail if his aim is good. That is balance. Not hide in the bushes till all the ammo is gone.

What's you're reasoning on this? This is opinion, nothing more. The fact is, if a front line 'mech decides to stupidly walk across an open field towards an LRM boat firing from 2 or 3 LRM15's or LRM20's, well, the amount of potential damage is significantly greater and therefore more often than not, that front line 'mech should be the one to die.

That's based on the amount of potential damage able to be delivered.

Quote

Personally i think missile "shake" should be less with mech size, almost completly disabled for the assault, because it's still pretty ridiculous. I've never played a MW game where Lasers and PPCs and you know the *main* weapons were as weak as MWO's.

I think you're identifying yourself as one of those twin gauss/PPC wielding Lone Wolves that likes to what he wants and ignores the 7 other people on his team.

MWO is probably not the game for you then.

[Dimento Graven]

Terror Teddy, on 16 November 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

The problem with LRM's is not the damage - it's how they were implemented from start.

1. They are too easy to use
2. They require no direct LOS to use
3. There is no equipment required to be able to use indirect fire
4. Always parabolic arc - use parabolic when indirect and straight line narrow cone when firing direct LOS
5. Area saturation on indirect fire but little spread when firing direct
6. No maximum range on how far away your spotter is.
7. No requirement for improved scanner to pick up spotter far away.

Point 5 and 6 is something that is from WoT. basically unless your team mate is within radio/scanner distance of both mechs they cannot show you what they see.

1. In your opion. Factually, to use them effectively requires at least two 'mechs coordinating their efforts. For even greater efficacy the target can react stupidly and not try and break lock.
2. Two be able to indirect fire you have to find a location your missles will travel over and you have to have someone spotting for you. Not as easy as it seems actually. Most people don't know how to spot effectively, and finding that terrain where you're not exposed but lets you fire your missles, there's not that many spots available.
3. The spotter must have the enemy targeted. If the spotter targets another 'mech, the previous missle lock is lost. If the spotter loses visual, the missle lock is lost.
4. Yes, strange how a ballistic weapon like missles would travel in an arc. Silly real world logic invading a video game, how dare it. Better that the missles should have wheels and have to travel along the ground...
5. It's a tremendous spread, even when firing direct. I've launched many a salvo of 30 rounds and the missles that weren't blocked by terrain, or shot down by various 'mechs AMS systems hit just about every location of the 'mech I was facing. Now, the 30 minus some unknown number of missles worth of damage that actually hits getting spread to 7 or 8 locations means that there's no specific location receiving a whole heck of a lot of damage. In fact most locations are probably receiving less damage than what a small laser would inflict.
6. Maximum range of missles is 1000m (unlike gauss and ER PPC). Even if the spotter is at 1000m, if you're another 100m or more beyond the spotter, the missles will not reach you. I've watched as the missles get beyond 1000m, they blow up in mid air, you're safe. Even if the spotter was right next to you humping your leg, I still would not be able to hit you beyond 1000m.
7. Nor should there be. Your spotters, for your missle boats all enjoy the same communication as our missle boats do. Your non-missleboats enjoy receving the same information from your scouts as your missle boats do.

The missles are 'mostly' implemented within the rules of BattleTech lore and promote TEAM PLAY, both offensively and defensively.

[Kaziganthi]

Dimento Graven, on 16 November 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

3. The spotter must have the enemy targeted. If the spotter targets another 'mech, the previous missle lock is lost. If the spotter loses visual, the missle lock is lost.

I'm not sure this is correct. I think as long as the target the LRM firer is shooting at is in the spotters visual arc (the 90 degree angle on the minimap) the information is passed back so that the firer can keep his lock. However, if the spotter loses LOS, then the lock will be broken on any missiles in mid flight.

I believe the targeting on the spotter is used for the spotting bonus when another player "R"'s that target.

[Vermaxx]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

TL;DR: LRMs have been nurfed too hard.

Absolutely. Artemis is essentially worthless now without ACTUAL TAG LOCK. Maybe it tighens the spread, but the spread is now too wide to begin with. Maybe it speeds missiles, I really doubt that. Artemis doesn't even apply to SRM anymore like it says it does - from personal observation. It does nothing other than possibly a tighter spread. I assume placebo because they still blossom out at 270m.

The cooldowns on LRM were greatly increased, the missile damage greatly lowered, and Artemis made yet another marginal piece of equipment. This was not a balancing fix, this was overnerfing which seemed to be part apology, part begging people not to quit.

LRMs are not as dangerous as they should be - certainly not as dangerous as direct fire. Do not tell me this is the boon of indirect fire, I have seen them do little even when the target was in LOS of the firing mech.

Given AMS made LRM largely useless in team play, and ECM will do that even moreso, LRM need something or there is very little reason to take them.

I cringe when LRM start hitting me, but I have been realizing it is mostly reflex. They don't do the damage they did even before Artemis.

[Kaijin]

Vermaxx, on 16 November 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

Artemis is essentially worthless now without ACTUAL TAG LOCK.

Which is silly because TAG was developed to do what Artemis already did, thus freeing up tonnage on the LRM mechs. An Artemis equpiied mech should be getting the same effect with their missiles alone that they're getting now only with TAG.

Edited by Kaijin, 16 November 2012 - 02:50 PM.