791 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Kaziganthi, on 16 November 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

And now your comparing apples to oranges.

At least I compared the same weapon systems, your comparing Large Pulses to IS ER Large Lasers. How about comparing the same weapon types. I also used in my statement going up against CLAN brawlers, nice you omitted that out in your response.

Actually, I was simply comparing the 300m range IS LPL to the Clan version- which has a range of 600m and more damage besides.

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The only differences between a CLAN LRM and an IS LRM is the removal of the miminum range, weight and critical slots, that's it. No change in damage, no change in weapon range. If you want to compare the same type of energy weapon lets pick one...

You know. Weight and critical slots, minor things. The fact that a Clan 'Mech can stuff more missiles per hardpoint into a 'Mech without trying and still have extra room and tonnage to cool said launchers is hardly important- that for the weight an IS LRM 10 is instead matched by a Clan LRM 20 in the same spot. You know. Double the firepower? Literally?

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Lets go for the good old ER PPC. TT stats

*edit snip*
Clan will always be better than IS, thats a given, seeing as they are a militaristic culture that were supposed to 400 years ahead of the IS. What most are saying here is that LRM's are a support weapon and support weapons shouldn't be able to solo kill any mech on the field. Well that's just wrong.

Well, DUH. I've been happily maiming people with LRMs since Reagan was president.

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Even in todays warfare would you think any sane tank commander would order his unit through a constant barrage of artillery, and go "Hey boys, it's only support fire, it's not going to do much but scratch the ablative armour off us".

Annnnd this we don't disagree on. I'm happy they're restoring some of the damage LRMs deal with the next weapons pass, and I hope they get the missile guidance back to what it was before the Artemis patch overdid it. All I'm saying is that the Clan LRM performance in so many different ways thanks to it's lower tonnage, crit requirements and lack of minimums that the name "LRM" is about the only thing the two share that matters.

[MWHawke]

Grizley, on 15 November 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Really? In a world where it's common to miss with an autocannon at 600m you complain about how accurate missiles are?

Look at an Abrams, how often does it miss compared a much smaller target at 2500m?

Battletech targeting systems are junk, one of the reasons the seeking LRMs seem so bogus.

You DO realize I'm talking about Streak 2s right?

[Scratx]

vaakuum, on 16 November 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

Sry guys, but what means supporting mech?

It can cause damage against any mech, but cant kill any type alone?

or it should be able to cause enough damage against big ones to help the teammates to kill the big one, but have to own a good firepower, which should be able to kill the light ones alone, if he had the good situation?

Last night, with my A1, when i was unable to support an atlas:

In the water on the fores colony map, distance between 450 and 550, i see a light mech (jenner) circling around our altlas. Atlas of course cant overmanouver this fast guy, so just get the hit and hit and hit from him...

I locked with my own sight this jenner, and start to shot him with 2*15 LRM...after the 6-th dual shot, (and as i can count right 6*2*15 LRM= 180 LRM = 1 ton of LRM, which price is ... ohhh better not to know) he still not have any critical damage.

The story dont end now, i started to go closer (about 220) with my A1 to use the 4*ssrm's too (which were nerfed not so long ago too ), and i risked i become a target since i move out from my cover, but wanted to help that Atlas, and really was soo clear position to kill the jenner, which is incredible rare for me.

on may way to the targeted distance an enemy commando arrived, and started to hit me. I dont take care of him, since i known i have no chance to kill him, if i cant kill the jenner in better killing situation. And the commando killed me faster with his wepons when i was in moving, as i could kill the ligth one with 2*LRM15 and 4*ssrm) , which dont take care of me... i shot on this jenner about 2 tons of LRM and about 4*2*5= 40 SSRM. Because of heat management i was unable to shot more...and i died.

After my death this 2 light killed the atlas.

Since the distance was good enough and the spotted jenner was circling around an another mech, i was able to keep him in lock for the LRM's and ssrm's continuously.


What is the cause i cant kill him?
-the LRM and SSRM dont have enough damage?
-the LRM and SSRM cant hit the target, though they are perfectly locked with own sight and they impact behind the fast target?

I dont know, but this is the GIGALOLL, but im sad, it is true.

LRMs vs a light circling at very high speeds ... in the water of Forest Colony?

... Yeah, I'm not surprised you couldn't take him down. You need Artemis LRMs or a much higher volume of fire to tackle lights with any effectiveness when using LRMs. And SSRMs in the water also tend to hit the water and detonate prematurely rather often.

The Commando, I'm afraid, is also deceptively powerful. Especially if it happens to be an SRM Commando.

So ... yeah. You were hosed. If the terrain had been different you'd've seen significantly better results. As it happens, it was the worst terrain that exists in MWO to pummel lights with sun blotting missiles.

Edited by Scratx, 16 November 2012 - 10:50 PM.

[NaerahQc]

May i ask where everybody get their data/stats about clan tech that won't be in the game for a couple of month at least?

wanderer, on 16 November 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

Actually, I was simply comparing the 300m range IS LPL to the Clan version- which has a range of 600m and more damage besides.



You know. Weight and critical slots, minor things. The fact that a Clan 'Mech can stuff more missiles per hardpoint into a 'Mech without trying and still have extra room and tonnage to cool said launchers is hardly important- that for the weight an IS LRM 10 is instead matched by a Clan LRM 20 in the same spot. You know. Double the firepower? Literally?



Well, DUH. I've been happily maiming people with LRMs since Reagan was president.



Annnnd this we don't disagree on. I'm happy they're restoring some of the damage LRMs deal with the next weapons pass, and I hope they get the missile guidance back to what it was before the Artemis patch overdid it. All I'm saying is that the Clan LRM performance in so many different ways thanks to it's lower tonnage, crit requirements and lack of minimums that the name "LRM" is about the only thing the two share that matters.

Is there an official post from a dev i missed or some of you can see in the future? Don't refer me to TT, they changed so many things from it that you can't really claim clan tech is gonna be what's written in it.

Wanderer, after rereading this i found it looked (mostly because i quoted you) aggressive toward you and its absolutly not my intent, and i apologize. I just really wanna know where is everybody getting their numbers? If is from TT, can we be sure PGI is gonna stick to that?

Edited by NaerahQc, 17 November 2012 - 12:59 AM.

[Dorque]

NaerahQc, on 17 November 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

May i ask where everybody get their data/stats about clan tech that won't be in the game for a couple of month at least?

Is there an official post from a dev i missed or some of you can see in the future? Don't refer me to TT, they changed so many things from it that you can't really claim clan tech is gonna be what's written in it.

No, but we can extrapolate. Take armour for example; now, there are no Clan Mechs in the game yet but it's a fairly safe bet that since they've doubled IS Mech armour, Clan Mech armour will probably receive a similar buff.

Likewise, if IS LRMs continue to have 1.7x TT normal damage, Clan LRMs will likely have 1.7x TT normal damage.

It's not an absolute guarantee but it's a pretty good start; we don't actually need hard numbers for Clan equipment to put our brains in gear and figure them out ourselves.

[Gabrielpendragon]

I am running dual lrm 20s and about 1200 rounds averaging 2 kills a game and up to 6 assists.

Atlas's melt without AMS. Assaults are my primary targets specially if they don't have AMS. I don't even waste my missiles on scouts most the time. Takes a few volleys to do so, and I'm never the only one shooting at them, but when that mech flashes and gets more and more red from each volley, I know I am doing my part to win. Missiles are pretty well balanced from what I have seen.

When people are shooting at targets that don't have solid locks, or that are hiding behind buildings are when missiles are useless. I'll be sure to load a cat up with as many missiles as I can fit onto it when i get to heavies. Just as a tribute

[Kaziganthi]

Slight sideshift on topic...

One of the things I'm seeing as the rollercoaster of nerfing happens, not just LRM, but all weapons, is the complete lack of tactics due to flavour of the month.

Currently it seems to be one of two scenarios :

1. Rush base
2. Rush in close and brawl till none left

While both are valid wins, they lack any sort of real tactical thinking, it's like 2 infantry platoons on patrol just wandering into each other, or finding the others Base of Operations.

When you mix "Support weaponry" that is effective, people need to start to really think and I believe this is what a majority (more than 51%) of players don't want.

I'll put a couple of examples out there.

You run a squad of infantry (Brawlers) with 1 sniper (Guasskitty) and you have to assault a base with same what do you? Most likely, one of the 2 above.

Now...

You run the same squad, but have to assault a defended base that has artillery support (LRM boats), possibly 1 sniper (Guasskitty) and a few infantry (Brawlers). Now you have to think about how to approach and take them out, rather than just rush on in.

Even PUGs are starting to learn to commincate, but when you can completely ignore a particular weapon class, in this case LRM's, the thinking then falls back out the window,

Edited by Kaziganthi, 17 November 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[Dorque]

Kaziganthi, on 17 November 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

1. Rush base
2. Rush in close and brawl till none left

I think this may have more to do with the single match type right now and the prevalence of light Mechs due to the lagshield... it's just more effective (and more cost-effective) to rush to cap than anything else.

Personally, I'd like to see bases get a couple of static defenses, I think it would solve a lot of the problems with cap rushing.

[Kaziganthi]

Another example how how underpowered lrms are at the moment.6 full volleys of 50 missiles per volley, thats 300 missiles at 1.7 damage each which should be 510 damage, on a hunchack that has max armour of 338 (9 SML hunchback) , and I only took it down to 42% when it should have been a pile of scrap metal.

Even if, and i'm being generous here, only 50% of missiles hit, thats 275 damage, which leaves 68 of his 338 armour left or 18% total mech left.

Was he coming straight at me, you betcha.
Did he have an AMS, nope, nada, niet.
Did I get any components destroyed, nope.
Did i rip any limbs off, nope.
Did I even penetrate internally. No armour left on one arm, but internals weren't yellow.
Was he softened up for someone else to kill, you betcha, but hey they get the kill XP and cash, all I get is the assist.

So to the people saying they are ok and don't need work, explain how that happens.

[Belorion]

Why is thread even still going. LRMS are underpowered right now. Don't use them.... end of story.

[Kaziganthi]

Belorion, on 17 November 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

Why is thread even still going. LRMS are underpowered right now. Don't use them.... end of story.

Because I'm getting the xp up on that mech so I can pump up elite and master when my 3rd cat finishes basic and my 2nd cat finishes elite and so on.

edit : because all the nerf lrm people reckon they are still overpowered, or that there is nothing wrong with them at all.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 17 November 2012 - 03:05 PM.

[Kurayami]

well that is the way things working) everyone prefer seeing what they like to be powerful while things they don't be nerfed to the ground. and since we clearly have more brawlers (at least recent polls showed this) "lrm is still op" treads is bound to pop up. there are not so many "gauss is op" treads simply because many (and by many i mean most) of those brawlers using it.