234 replies to this topic

[Onyx Rain]

After using whatever DHS system we have now....I think DHS could use a buff.

I didn't think it would be much better then it was before the "fix"...and it doesn't feel like it is on any of my builds really.

I feel like I over heat as fast if not faster then I was before the fix...but feel like maybe I dissipate heat a bit faster. Faster dissipation is good....slower heat build up and faster dissipation would be better.

[fxrsniper]

Thuzel, on 12 November 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

You can test it yourself.

If they released as they said in the patch notes, 13 DHS is only the equivalent of 18.2 SHS at this point. Your mech should be running much hotter than it did with 22 SHS.

If it implemented as 2.0 EHS and 1.4 outside, you now have 24.2 which should be cooler than before.

It doesnt it though it runs cooler so I dont believe those stats my findings and most of our 235 member group agrees DHS are working as 1.4 for all the link that was posted was done by a non developer so for now I'll go by what its actually doing. Im running less heat sinks with Double and get either the same heat or better.

[Bubba Wilkins]

fxrsniper, on 12 November 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

It doesnt it though it runs cooler so I dont believe those stats my findings and most of our 235 member group agrees DHS are working as 1.4 for all the link that was posted was done by a non developer so for now I'll go by what its actually doing. Im running less heat sinks with Double and get either the same heat or better.

My spreadsheet posted above does not lie. Engine DHS are working at 2.0, all others at 1.4. After deriving the relative ambient temperature modifiers and how the pilot skill is applied, this is how things are.

The numbers just don't work otherwise.

[Thuzel]

Bubba Wilkins, on 12 November 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

My spreadsheet posted above does not lie. Engine DHS are working at 2.0, all others at 1.4. After deriving the relative ambient temperature modifiers and how the pilot skill is applied, this is how things are.

The numbers just don't work otherwise.

Thank you for that!

So we've got some mathematical evidence as well as extracts from the game files.

[Mechsniper]

Light mechs should be light mechs, IE easy to kill, but hard to hit. You should not be able to slug it out against heavier mechs and constantly come up the winner, given pilots of equal skill. DHS being nerfed, higher heat on PL's renerfed LRMs, guass cats, PPC range/damage/heat. there are balance issues that seem to not be getting addressed. Mechs must die for this game to be fun and small mechs should die quicker in general. All mechs are NOT created equal and it will not be fun if they are.

[Mister Blastman]

Here here OP! Lets go 2.0, all the way!

[Aquilus]

Mechsniper, on 12 November 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

Light mechs should be light mechs, IE easy to kill, but hard to hit. You should not be able to slug it out against heavier mechs and constantly come up the winner, given pilots of equal skill.

This game is based around a rock-paper-scissors concept, so why is it that most heavy/assault pilots think that it's actually supposed to be rock-paper-nuclear missile or something equally ridiculous?

[Marzepans]

fxrsniper, on 12 November 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

It doesnt it though it runs cooler so I dont believe those stats my findings and most of our 235 member group agrees DHS are working as 1.4 for all the link that was posted was done by a non developer so for now I'll go by what its actually doing. Im running less heat sinks with Double and get either the same heat or better.

Either you are lying or your 235 fellow member are all idiots. It is the simplest of tests to check the functionality of the ten engine heat sinks and it is perfectly obvious that they are currently functioning as true doubles. Which group are you speaking on behalf of anyway? I'm sure they'd be thrilled.

Edited by Marzepans, 12 November 2012 - 09:57 AM.

[fxrsniper]

Bubba Wilkins, on 12 November 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

My spreadsheet posted above does not lie. Engine DHS are working at 2.0, all others at 1.4. After deriving the relative ambient temperature modifiers and how the pilot skill is applied, this is how things are.

The numbers just don't work otherwise.

well It may be so but its still better than singles Im running less heat and getting same results if not better so its working

[Thuzel]

fxrsniper, on 12 November 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

well It may be so but its still better than singles Im running less heat and getting same results if not better so its working

"Working"

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Krivvan]

I don't know about anybody else, but I actually do find the usage of DHS in light mechs very OP in this patch, and I almost exclusively use light mechs. I can't bring myself to overheat (or rather override) anymore, which is terrible.

Edited by Krivvan, 12 November 2012 - 10:08 AM.

[Bloody Moon]

Funny thing is that plenty of DHS threads got cleared out of the forums including some which had no flame only pure suggestions and proper discussions in them so that is partly the reason behind the almost zero DHS topics. I for one am disinclined to repost the ideas mentioned in them, despite the fact that a few of those suggestions were damn good in case the devs want to avoid the TT DHS model.

Eventually i'll gather the patience to retype them, but surely not now.

Edited by Bloody Moon, 12 November 2012 - 10:10 AM.

[Matist]

Aquilus, on 12 November 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

This game is based around a rock-paper-scissors concept, so why is it that most heavy/assault pilots think that it's actually supposed to be rock-paper-nuclear missile or something equally ridiculous?

Honestly, I'm not even sure if it's even relevant to the thread. True DHS will mean heavier mechs fielding larger lasers and medium mechs being able to field pulse.

Larger lasers aren't going to make assaults take down lighter mechs faster. Heck if assaults start to field PPC over large lasers it'll mean they have a harder time bringing down rabbits.

Since this is open beta I think it'd be interesting to see the impact of true DHS. My guess is you'd see more PPC, pulse and large lasers on the field. The game balance and impact of heat would probably stay the same. People will just run hotter weapons they ignore right now.

[Thuzel]

Krivvan, on 12 November 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

I don't know about anybody else, but I actually do find the usage of DHS in light mechs very OP in this patch, and I almost exclusively use light mechs. I can't bring myself to overheat (or rather override) anymore, which is terrible.

That's only half of the picture though. Fully implemented 2.0 DHS also allow heavier mechs greater damage potential. The only thing that's keeping that from being balanced is bad netcode and hit detection. There is still some lagshield taking place, and light mechs are getting much more benefit from it than slower mechs. Thus, lighter mechs seem very overpowered with full DHS because they have higher alphas and are still difficult to kill.

[AlanEsh]

Why is it that lights get an advantage over assaults when using DHS? Because they have more free crit space. They are limited by tonnage, not crits.
Why is it that assaults are at a disadvantage to lights when using DHS? Because while they have free tonnage available, they are more restricted by crit space.

I think the easiest and most sensible solution (if there is actually a problem/imbalance with 2.0 DHS) is to reduce the crit requirements to TWO per DHS.

With this change the Jenner who ran out of tonnage gets to add 0 more DHS.
With this change the Atlas who ran out of crit space gets to add 2-3 more DHS.

Yes I know this steps into Clan tech territory, but the devs can differentiate clan DHS by giving them better capacity or dissipation rate.

[fxrsniper]

Marzepans, on 12 November 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

Either you are lying or your 235 fellow member are all idiots. It is the simplest of tests to check the functionality of the ten engine heat sinks and it is perfectly obvious that they are currently functioning as true doubles. Which group are you speaking on behalf of anyway? I'm sure they'd be thrilled.

Excuse you no one in our group are idiots I dont thinks its very nice to refer to people that you know nothing about as idiots we are HHoD we dont tolerate people like you

[Velba]

I called it.

[FelixBlucher]

I am all for altering all of the DHS to 2.0, it would be interesting to see just what comes of it. If it makes something over powered, then it can easily be changed back. A quick hot fix could be put out, or it could just be changed to a lower value after the next patch.
I also like the previous suggestion of changing the heat dissapation, but keeping the heat capacity the same. I would be interested in seeing just how that played out. Since we are still in Open Beta, why not test it on a wide scale?

[Murphy7]

Having just seen this, that is interesting.

I have been in exactly 6 matches since last patch, and largely have not been making time for the game this week partly due to work, and partly from disgust at the patch notes and Command Chair dictates leading up to last patch.

That PGI did not follow through on their stated intention of 1.4 DHS in all locations is not something to credit them for.

Yes, I would prefer some DHS to be at 2.0 rather than none.

But I would also prefer being able to accept PGI's statements about upcoming patches and policies to be factual, rather than dishonest before and/or after the fact.

Get DHS to 2.0 in all locations, and then see where the consequences lead us.

Also get a handle on patch projection, patch content, and communication with the community, since the "1.4 DHS" missive managed to both inflame a segment of the community AND end up being inaccurate besides.

[Thuzel]

Matist, on 12 November 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

Honestly, I'm not even sure if it's even relevant to the thread. True DHS will mean heavier mechs fielding larger lasers and medium mechs being able to field pulse.

Larger lasers aren't going to make assaults take down lighter mechs faster. Heck if assaults start to field PPC over large lasers it'll mean they have a harder time bringing down rabbits.

Since this is open beta I think it'd be interesting to see the impact of true DHS. My guess is you'd see more PPC, pulse and large lasers on the field. The game balance and impact of heat would probably stay the same. People will just run hotter weapons they ignore right now.

I'd say it's relevant because DHS are vastly important to heavier mechs. I'd actually argue that heavier mechs need DHS more that lights for a couple of reasons (sustained rate of fire being chief among them). It will be hard to achieve a balanced battlefield without them, unless everyone continues ignoring high heat weapons.

Plus, that's actually the way it's supposed to be. Every weight class is effectively countered by it's heavier class.

Lights die to mediums, mediums to heavies, etc... The only exception is that assaults are generally killed by everyone (which has to be the case because they've got so much armor). Ideally, we shouldn't see a lot of heavies and assaults hunting and killing lights except as targets of opportunity.