117 replies to this topic

[Xeven]

I am not accusing PGI of sales Fraud in anyway even if the Thread title might imply so.

This is not a QQ or wine thread. I just want to make sure other customers know what to expect from PGI in regards to Open Beta changes, the time you put in to make C-Bills and your MC you pay cash for.

I sent a ticket to PGI requesting a refund of the C-Bills I spent making upgrades in the currently clunky Mechlab. The one that does not let you save and see all your mods and upgrades before you buy. The one that fails to report accurate status of upgrades and mods in real time. The Mechlab that fails to save and often appears to eat C-Bills.

I also cited the fact they announce Double Heat Sinks and release them and then nurf them or make changes to upgrades that make your purchase no longer viable thus wasting the C-bills you spend time grinding away to get. Not only that, to reverse the upgrade that they made no longer viable, they make you spend even more C-Bills.

I simply asked them to reverse all my upgrades and refund my C-bills for each time I made a upgrade or downgrade. I told them I would refrain from making further upgrades and such until they stabilize the Mechlab, game and balance issues. I realize they will be making balance changes often while in open beta so I think as a gesture to customers they should not charge us for the upgrades until they stabilize them balance wise.

I received a very nice response basically saying they can't afford to start doing those type refunds as people would abuse them etc...but they could feel my pain. Wish I had the email here at work. It was very nicely worded and did explain their side to a point I could understand their side of the issue.

However, I feel this is contrary to good customer relations especially when we are using real cash in the mix, buying virtual goods. Companies should honor the tradition of real life sales and allow refunds when they drastically change the services you paid for. Just my opinion.

We are in Open Beta which means it is a test environment. We the customer should not have to make permanent decisions on our game finances during such a volatile time in the development of the game.

You already got my REAL money, now please provide a good service for that money. I am only asking for a refund of game money not the real dollars transferred from my bank to yours.

Anyway, Bait and Switch is an age old tactic used by salesman where they show you one thing then switch it for another. I am not saying PGI planned to do this strategically but it amounts to the same thing when you make huge drastic changes to a product or service after it has been paid for.

Beware as of right now PGI is not going to help you out with these issues so be careful what you spend.

Edited by Xeven, 13 November 2012 - 07:02 AM.

[VtTimber]

This is a BETA... a BETA... do you know what BETA means? It means the game is in an incomplete state... it means there will be changes.... it means, DON'T spend REAL money on ANYTHING unless you don't care about it later because odds are, IT WILL CHANGE.

This goes for anyone else complaining about ANYTHING in this BETA... its an effing BETA... not a finished game. I swear to god, 85% of you people think you're playing a full-on released game that you bought from Steam... Open your eyes and act like you're not idiots...

This entire time PGI has been running a BETA therefore they haven't done any 'bait and switch'... you are testing their game for them....

And just to recap...
THIS IS A BETA!

Edited by VtTimber, 13 November 2012 - 05:35 AM.

[potatoparrot]

As far as I'm aware, you are entitled to a full refund of your Founder Status and full revocation of all such Founder's rights.

You are not entitled to anything else as nothing else was promised you. This is not bait-and-switch, it's just you not being satisfied with the system. It is an unfinished game, you are not entitled to coddling or personal assistance and compensation for every change they make that you disagree with. If you don't like losing progress due to a balance change, perhaps you should refrain from playing the game until it is declared finished.

[Drunky]

You say you spent C-bills, and then go on to say that they should refund you your C-bills because they have your real money. non sequitur.

I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure they'd help you out if you bought something with MC and were dissatisfied; to me this really seems like a case of them not wanting to use customer support hours on every non-profit, no cash involved C-bill purchase.

[D34K]

MCs = real money, cbills = virtual money achieved through playing the game.

Your scenario is a bit like me spending all my gold in some MMORPG on nice weapons. These weapons later get patched because they (or the game around them) were broken, unbalanced, or whatever. I'm not then complaining to Blizzard or whoever asking for gold back because they don't currently do what I hoped, that's not how it works.

Given we're in beta, the risk of broken stuff is even greater. My advice? Use trial mechs.

[Drunky]

VtTimber, on 13 November 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

This is a BETA... a BETA... do you know what BETA means? It means the game is in an incomplete state... it means there will be changes.... it means, DON'T spend REAL money on ANYTHING unless you don't care about it later because odds are, IT WILL CHANGE.

This goes for anyone else complaining about ANYTHING in this BETA... its an effing BETA... not a finished game. I swear to god, 85% of you people think you're playing a full-on released game that you bought from Steam... Open your eyes and act like you're not idiots...

This entire time PGI has been running a BETA therefore they haven't done any 'bait and switch'... you are testing their game for them....

And just to recap...
THIS IS A BETA!

Why isn't there a thumbs down... they opened a store, there is no reset, and anyone can join the game. This may be labeled a beta by the developers, but this is as live as the game can get. There is nothing else for them to turn on to make it more live. http://en.wikipedia..../Perpetual_beta

[Rifter]

I know, i also asked for a refund of all my DHS purchases and like you got politly told it wasnt going to happen.

This is totally a bait and switch 100%, only the blind and or PGI white knight brigade could think otherwise.

So far since going launched/gone live/open beta whatever you want to call it i have wasted millions in the mechlab and am now to the point i am only dropping in my gausscat as it seems to be the most stable mech that never gets screwed up with stupid changes, the devs must pilot gausscats or something.

So far ive wasted money on:

Swithing 3 mechs to DHS and then 2 back to normal. What really ****** me off about DHS in particular is i waited specifically after the first time they were introduced broken for bryan to say they would be fixed to 2.0 value before i bought the upgrade, then to be told 2 days after that sorry we lied you are getting screwed with 1.4 heatsinks less than half as effective as they should be to bad and thanks for the millions of cbills you just wasted.

Then the whole LRM nerfed to uselessness issue.

I havent used LRM's much in months, tried them out a long time ago and just found them not useful. Then when artemis was released i figured sure why not give them a chance and see what they are like now that game is live how they are no should be close to what they will stay at. Boy was i wrong. I spent millions and millions on the Artemis upgrades and LRM launchers on many mechs in my mechbay when i found out how effective LRM's now were, i literally conveted every mech i had with missle hardpoints to LRM boats and installed artemis as they were just super effective, sure they cost alot to rearm but i have premium so it didnt bother me.

Now they have gone from super effective to useless, not even worth it. I would rather play a game with 2 ML than 2 LRM20's im not even kidding. I just spent MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS on tech that is now essentially useless.

They really need to get their **** together and figure the damn game out already, this **** should have been taken care of in closed beta you dont screw over paying customers like this when there are no more resets this is just horrible business practice.

So untill this is figured out im playing gausscats online and just ignoring the rest of my mechs, im honestly considering buying 2 more gausscats just so i dont need to spectate if i die early and can drop again right away in another gausscat.

[CodeNameValtus]

There is a reason why it costs you C-Bills to install DHS and to downgrade to SHS on the same mech. Think of it as paying your pit crew to change all that for you. It takes time to do lengthy upgrades/downgrades like that. If you want the 'hot tech' you pay to get it installed. If you go on to find out it wasn't all it was cracked up to be, you pay to downgrade, just like EVERYONE else.

You are not a special snowflake. You do not get a sense of entitlement in this game, or any other. Just because something changes and now something you spent 1.5 million C-bills on is no longer worth it in your eyes. You want to downgrade, but what if they re-buff it, would you then fork over the 1.5 Million C-Bills again to reinstall it. Of course your would.

You sir seem like a band wagon'er. So let me put this in simple terms. You put your hand in the cookie jar, you took a bite of the cookie, now you want to put the cookie back and get back the full price for the cookie that you took a bite of. Not going to happen, you now own the cookie. What you do with the cookie from the time you touch it is your call. You can play with the cookie, taste the cookie, lick the cookie, tell your cookie jokes, pet your cookie, hug your cookie, but once the cookie is yours, it's yours. I don't want the cookie back.

[Rifter]

Drunky, on 13 November 2012 - 05:43 AM, said:

Why isn't there a thumbs down... they opened a store, there is no reset, and anyone can join the game. This may be labeled a beta by the developers, but this is as live as the game can get. There is nothing else for them to turn on to make it more live. http://en.wikipedia..../Perpetual_beta

Yeah this, its beta IS IRRELEVENT when the game is as live as its ever going to be.

[Blaank]

Eve Online
YOU BRUY SNAKE SET?
YOU RANT REFUND?
NO MIRRION ISK!

[potatoparrot]

I'm not usually this blunt, and this is quite against how I feel people should express themselves on public forums, but I have to say it and I hope people don't copy my outburst.

Rifter, you're an *****.

You have paid millions and millions... Of value-less fun-money earnt in a video game. Do you seriously think that spending video game money entitles you to any form of refund? Especially in a game this far from feature-complete that is undergoing balancing adjustments on a weekly basis? Do you expect them to hurl your completely meaningless "money" back at you after every patch? Sorry, but no. That isn't how this works. That isn't how they ever said it would work. You're not spending real money, you're not losing a damn thing. You can't get ripped off when the only thing you've done is play the freaking game and then spent pretend money earnt doing so to play the game some more.

Not happy about your fun-money being spent on something that was adjusted in a way you don't like?

Maybe you should stop spending your fun-money on things until the game's closer to feature-complete. Or perhaps you should stop treating your fun-money like it's real money.

Perhaps if you'd spent MC on something that was nerfed and was a waste of cash, they might refund the purchase. But not freaking CBills.

[Rifter]

Jings, on 13 November 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

I'm not usually this blunt, and this is quite against how I feel people should express themselves on public forums, but I have to say it and I hope people don't copy my outburst.

Rifter, you're an *****.

You have paid millions and millions... Of value-less fun-money earnt in a video game. Do you seriously think that spending video game money entitles you to any form of refund? Especially in a game this far from feature-complete that is undergoing balancing adjustments on a weekly basis? Do you expect them to hurl your completely meaningless "money" back at you after every patch? Sorry, but no. That isn't how this works. That isn't how they ever said it would work. You're not spending real money, you're not losing a damn thing. You can't get ripped off when the only thing you've done is play the freaking game and then spent pretend money earnt doing so to play the game some more.

Not happy about your fun-money being spent on something that was adjusted in a way you don't like?

Maybe you should stop spending your fun-money on things until the game's closer to feature-complete. Or perhaps you should stop treating your fun-money like it's real money.

Perhaps if you'd spent MC on something that was nerfed and was a waste of cash, they might refund the purchase. But not freaking CBills.

Unlike some i dont have alot of time to game, usualy only play a few games a day. I would like to know that when i spend a week to earn cbills to make a upgrade that its going to function close to how it did when i bought it. Im all for small balance changes but what they did with LRM's was far from a small change.

[Xeven]

Jings, on 13 November 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

As far as I'm aware, you are entitled to a full refund of your Founder Status and full revocation of all such Founder's rights.

You are not entitled to anything else as nothing else was promised you. This is not bait-and-switch, it's just you not being satisfied with the system. It is an unfinished game, you are not entitled to coddling or personal assistance and compensation for every change they make that you disagree with. If you don't like losing progress due to a balance change, perhaps you should refrain from playing the game until it is declared finished.

You are right, I am not entitled to anything, and I am not satisfied with the system, so I came here to express my opinion on customer relations concerning the service they provide and inform other customers what to expect. That is exactly what I am doing.

Selling you one thing, such as Double Heat Sinks for a price, even a virtual price, then changing it as they did Double Heat Sinks is most certainly akin to a bait and switch even if they did not to it intentionally.

I am simply asking them to consider the time and effort put in by their customers while they continue to experiment with balance. They can certainly say no and I will continue on my way. I am just opening a disscussion about the issue in the Disccusion forum. They could turn off costs for upgrades while they balance them. Once they get to a balanced state reverse all upgrades and let customers make a choice to renew the upgrade or not...once they have them fairly balanced. It is BETA after all. It is beta for the company as well as beta for customers. Why should it be the customer who feels all the negative side of the uncompleted product?

[Agent of Change]

The game is as live as it's goign to be however under the cover of the open-beta label, you should expect bugs, changes, buffs, nerfs, etc.... (This is why a barely functional but still fun game should not have moved to open beta but i digress)

The point is is that it is Beta, and you asked for a refund of imaginary money honestly if you got anything back I would have been shocked and surprised. Mistakes are made (we all occasionally make them) you are a founder just regrind it.

Edited by Agent of Change, 13 November 2012 - 05:55 AM.

[potatoparrot]

Rifter, on 13 November 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

Unlike some i dont have alot of time to game, usualy only play a few games a day. I would like to know that when i spend a week to earn cbills to make a upgrade that its going to function close to how it did when i bought it. Im all for small balance changes but what they did with LRM's was far from a small change.

Well then, perhaps you should play a game you can be certain won't be undergoing drastic balancing adjustments?

You can't blame PGI for making a decision you disagree with - There are plenty of other games you can sink your limited time into if you don't believe you're getting what you want out of MW:O. There are going to be adjustments, some of them are going to be incredibly drastic.

But to call them out and accuse them of sales fraud defies all sensibilities. I can't think of a damn word in the English language to describe it.

[Xeven]

Rifter, on 13 November 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

I know, i also asked for a refund of all my DHS purchases and like you got politly told it wasnt going to happen.

This is totally a bait and switch 100%, only the blind and or PGI white knight brigade could think otherwise.

So far since going launched/gone live/open beta whatever you want to call it i have wasted millions in the mechlab and am now to the point i am only dropping in my gausscat as it seems to be the most stable mech that never gets screwed up with stupid changes, the devs must pilot gausscats or something.

So far ive wasted money on:

Swithing 3 mechs to DHS and then 2 back to normal. What really ****** me off about DHS in particular is i waited specifically after the first time they were introduced broken for bryan to say they would be fixed to 2.0 value before i bought the upgrade, then to be told 2 days after that sorry we lied you are getting screwed with 1.4 heatsinks less than half as effective as they should be to bad and thanks for the millions of cbills you just wasted.

Then the whole LRM nerfed to uselessness issue.

I havent used LRM's much in months, tried them out a long time ago and just found them not useful. Then when artemis was released i figured sure why not give them a chance and see what they are like now that game is live how they are no should be close to what they will stay at. Boy was i wrong. I spent millions and millions on the Artemis upgrades and LRM launchers on many mechs in my mechbay when i found out how effective LRM's now were, i literally conveted every mech i had with missle hardpoints to LRM boats and installed artemis as they were just super effective, sure they cost alot to rearm but i have premium so it didnt bother me.

Now they have gone from super effective to useless, not even worth it. I would rather play a game with 2 ML than 2 LRM20's im not even kidding. I just spent MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS on tech that is now essentially useless.

They really need to get their **** together and figure the damn game out already, this **** should have been taken care of in closed beta you dont screw over paying customers like this when there are no more resets this is just horrible business practice.

So untill this is figured out im playing gausscats online and just ignoring the rest of my mechs, im honestly considering buying 2 more gausscats just so i dont need to spectate if i die early and can drop again right away in another gausscat.

No I am just opening a discussion. Would you not take a hamburger back to Mcdonalds if it was raw inside and ask them to cook it or refund the money you spent on it? Customers are entitled. Companies don't make money from them if they are unhappy about the product or services.

[Rifter]

Agent of Change, on 13 November 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

The game is as live as it's goign to be however under the cover of the open-beta label, you should expect bugs, changes, buffs, nerfs, etc.... (This is why a barely functional but still fun game should not have moved to open beta but i digress)

The point is is that it is Beta, and you asked for a refund of imaginary money honestly if you got anything back I would have been shocked and surprised. Mistakes are made (we all occasionally make them) you are a founder just regrind it.

They can call it beta all they want but the truth of the matter is as you said its as live as its ever going to be. And we shouldnt need to regrind every time they nerf somehting because they rushed the game out the door. Its not our fault they coudlnt see that the game was not ready to go live, hell most users told them as much and they launched it anyways.

[potatoparrot]

Xeven, on 13 November 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

You are right, I am not entitled to anything, and I am not satisfied with the system, so I came here to express my opinion on customer relations concerning the service they provide and inform other customers what to expect. That is exactly what I am doing.

Selling you one thing, such as Double Heat Sinks for a price, even a virtual price, then changing it as they did Double Heat Sinks is most certainly akin to a bait and switch even if they did not to it intentionally.

I am simply asking them to consider the time and effort put in by their customers while they continue to experiment with balance. They can certainly say no and I will continue on my way. I am just opening a disscussion about the issue in the Disccusion forum. They could turn off costs for upgrades while they balance them. Once they get to a balanced state reverse all upgrades and let customers make a choice to renew the upgrade or not...once they have them fairly balanced. It is BETA after all. It is beta for the company as well as beta for customers. Why should it be the customer who feels all the negative side of the uncompleted product?

No.

You can do a damn lot of things, you can call it a damn lot of things, but you can not call this a bait and switch.

No money has been transferred.

Accusing them of bait and switch is a lot worse than simply saying you aren't happy with something you bought being made less effective or useless - It's accusing them of sales fraud, something they are nowhere near guilty of. It doesn't matter how much of a point you have, or how dissatisfied you are with the methods used and handling of rebalancing and the virtual economy - Accusing them of sales fraud is a ridiculous exaggeration.

Bait and switch with fake money in a video game is absurd.

[John Norad]

VtTimber, on 13 November 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

This is a BETA... a BETA... do you know what BETA means?

Geez, do YOU know what beta means?

Here's the most common definition:"Beta (named after the second letter of the Greek alphabet) is the software development phase following alpha. It generally begins when the software is feature complete."

Now please stop repeating things parrot-fashon.
The game is far far from beta. Even perpetual beta would be a huge euphemism considering what has been announced, what's in the game and what's actually working.

I'm sick of people blindly throwing around arguments for the sake of it. Call it beta if you must, but beware of the fact it'll make you look like an irrational fanboy.

[Rifter]

Xeven, on 13 November 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

No I am just opening a discussion. Would you not take a hamburger back to Mcdonalds if it was raw inside and ask them to cook it or refund the money you spent on it? Customers are entitled. Companies don't make money from them if they are unhappy about the product or services.

I agree