117 replies to this topic

[Kousagi]

Xeven, This is why you don't work for PGI. The system you proposed is Worse then what they are doing now. Not that what they are currently doing in a BETA is bad. Though with your system, Think of what would have happened had they patched in LRM stuff, for free to everyone. There would have been nothing but LRM boats Spamming Missles to grind cash, all for free. Oh? atlas with 3000+ missles? rearm cost? lol, its all free!...

Brilliant idea....Though if you propose they roll back what people earned off using LRM's or made it so LRM's could not earn Cbills, then you would have a massive outcry. Thing is, they are doing what they need to the correct way. This is beta, if ya don't like big changes that may screw you a bit then wait for release.

[WithSilentWings]

Elandyll, on 13 November 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

If they sell (as in real life $$ sell) stuff, it's not really Beta. Just saying.

It's more of a glorified demo, with the purpose to stress test servers with a supposedly large influx of players. Open Betas always have been exactly that, but in this case they're already selling services, which would in fact make it more retail than Open Beta really.

In the end, it looks like a Beta, it behaves like a Beta (Alpha some would say), it's even called an Open Beta, but it really is a retail game, because the cash shop is live.

**** this argument in the butt. It's beta as long as they say it's beta, heed it as a WARNING. NOBODY IS MAKING YOU SPEND YOUR MONEY.

Tonnes of betas in the past required you to pay to get in or allowed you to make real purchases (Tribes is a recent example of paid stuff prior to full release).

Yes, I'm glad you figured out that open beta of a free to play game has some similarities with full release of traditional games. Great that you put that together--but holy crap, why the hell would PGI go around touting their product is in beta if they felt it was ready for prime-time and didn't want people to heed the warning. STOP PERPETUATING THIS ********.

[Xeven]

Kousagi, on 13 November 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

Xeven, This is why you don't work for PGI. The system you proposed is Worse then what they are doing now. Not that what they are currently doing in a BETA is bad. Though with your system, Think of what would have happened had they patched in LRM stuff, for free to everyone. There would have been nothing but LRM boats Spamming Missles to grind cash, all for free. Oh? atlas with 3000+ missles? rearm cost? lol, its all free!...

Brilliant idea....Though if you propose they roll back what people earned off using LRM's or made it so LRM's could not earn Cbills, then you would have a massive outcry. Thing is, they are doing what they need to the correct way. This is beta, if ya don't like big changes that may screw you a bit then wait for release.

I don't work for PGI because I live in Florida (not Canada) and have a GREAT job and would not move to Canada to work for them. Lets not make this personal eh? There were allready LRM boats everywhere! Lots of people upgraded to Artemis then watched the LRM's get nurfed. Sure it is expected, it is beta, but they did not have to charge us for Artemis while it was being tested. Could have put it in for free, balance it, strip it from all mechs and begin charging for it once it is balanced.

I work in software development and databases and understand why they could/should do the things I propose fairly easily.

Again, I am just asking they limit the impact better than they are now on the players while we go through this
tumultuous balancing time of the games development. Why is asking them to do that getting under some peoples skin so they come on here and attempt to belittle me and my opinion? Do you work for PGI? Wonder why not?

[nimrodusmaximus]

This thread is pure entertainment. But I'll contribute something (that I believe, anyways, is) constructive.

1. Saying that b/c it's virtual therefore bait/switch doesn't apply is just plain silly. If PGI sold you an "Atlas" for 12M C-Bills and you ended up with a Jenner, I think you'd be pretty unhappy. What I *think* you're trying to say is that the expectation that equipment stats won't change/be nerfed/adjusted/removed at this stage in the game's development (whether you want to call it alpha, beta, live, whatever) is unreasonable and therefore stop whining about it. I agree with this line of thought.

2. PGI is making some pretty annoying "pricing" policies, particularly re: the need to pay for installation/removal of "Upgrades". Yeah, they can say you're paying for a "pit crew" to put it on and take it off, but (a) that line of "reasoning" isn't consistent applied to, for example, installing/removing weapons, ( if I've paid for the materials/hardward, then the subsequent adding/removing/adding/removing should be just labor costs - but instead I'm paying full cost each time, © it's just damn annoying and I'm betting they did it this way either as a C-Bill sink or a simple oversight (derp).

3. Alot of complaints seem like they could be avoided altogether if PGI actually TESTED their changes/fixes/breaks/whatevers before releasing them. I keep reading about how PGI has internal testing, but, honestly, the amount of things going from working to broken, OP to useless, FOTM to only-a-moron-uses-that seems too great for me to believe that there's any serious amount of playtesting before things are released. Why not have a PTR or something if you can't afford to hire quality testers? I think lots of ppl would be very happy to try new things; this would also help newbs and experimenters since they could play whatever they wanted for free. Don't use the "live" game (where people have paid money for MCs/mechs) as your PTR!

4. This is just my completely unqualified opinion, and I've said it before and I'll say it again: Yes, a TT game isn't 100% translatable into a live-action game, but the more PGI seems to want to monkey with the basic fundamentals, the more (a) people complain, ( PGI gets it WRONG, and © erosion occurs among the basic, fundamental (and older, money spending) fanbase.

OK that's all for now.

Edited by coolname, 13 November 2012 - 10:03 AM.

[Xeven]

WithSilentWings, on 13 November 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

You as a customer have ever right to not spend your money on a product you know is in beta testing....

I don't understand what's so hard about this.

If you want everything to be fine and dandy and have no complaints about anything please wait until launch--nobody is making you play this game right now and nobody is making you spend money or c-bills or XP.

Imagine what you're saying here... Imagine if anyone could tell PGI that they're unhappy with the results of the money/c-bills/xp they spent and have it reversed... You'd have thousands of people spending all their MC and c-bills at once for fun and then requesting the transactions be reversed so they can buy the one or two builds that worked for them and save the rest of their cash for later...

I can see your point of view but this is a small to mid-sized developer not even 2 years into development doing their best to focus on game content and experience. Do you really want them to need a customer service staff twice the size of the development staff to deal with these things?

I agree with most of what you say but can't we still come here to discuss things that make the game experience unpleasant and hope they might see your point and make a change for the better? I don't want them to waste any time but the size of their team and staff is irrelevant to customers asking them to improve their practices and policies.

Who cares if all the customers get thier CB back? Why is it better that PGIget the benifits of bugs and broken content instead of the customer?

[DivideByZer0]

I lol'd at this thread.
Seriously...
Just so you know(echoing other posters), selecting SHS or DHS is something you do at the beginning of a mech build, usually. That's why it costs. I will agree with OP that the mechlab requires some improvement to assist newer players, but by no means is it broken. I do alot of my mech builds in multiple stages to avoid glitches/over/under tonnage.
What you're asking MWO to do (refund) COMPLETELY undermines the whole point of having to pay c-bills for upgrades. That being said, I have wasted MILLIONS of cbills refining my 4 mech builds. You don't always pick a winner. Believe me, I have made some dumb mistakes , but you know what happens?
I tell myself "OH well, I guess I should have been more careful, it IS a beta, after all, better try again when I save up, since whining about it will only upset other players who had similar problems and didn't complain, all while wasting the game developers time."
True story.

Edited by DivideByZer0, 13 November 2012 - 10:10 AM.

[Xeven]

coolname, on 13 November 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

This thread is pure entertainment. But I'll contribute something (that I believe, anyways, is) constructive.

1. Saying that b/c it's virtual therefore bait/switch doesn't apply is just plain silly. If PGI sold you an "Atlas" for 12M C-Bills and you ended up with a Jenner, I think you'd be pretty unhappy. What I *think* you're trying to say is that the expectation that equipment stats won't change/be nerfed/adjusted/removed at this stage in the game's development (whether you want to call it alpha, beta, live, whatever) is unreasonable and therefore stop whining about it. I agree with this line of thought.

2. PGI is making some pretty annoying "pricing" policies, particularly re: the need to pay for installation/removal of "Upgrades". Yeah, they can say you're paying for a "pit crew" to put it on and take it off, but (a) that line of "reasoning" isn't consistent applied to, for example, installing/removing weapons, ( if I've paid for the materials/hardward, then the subsequent adding/removing/adding/removing should be just labor costs - but instead I'm paying full cost each time, © it's just damn annoying and I'm betting they did it this way either as a C-Bill sink or a simple oversight (derp).

3. Alot of complaints seem like they could be avoided altogether if PGI actually TESTED their changes/fixes/breaks/whatevers before releasing them. I keep reading about how PGI has internal testing, but, honestly, the amount of things going from working to broken, OP to useless, FOTM to only-a-moron-uses-that seems too great for me to believe that there's any serious amount of playtesting before things are released. Why not have a PTR or something if you can't afford to hire quality testers? I think lots of ppl would be very happy to try new things; this would also help newbs and experimenters since they could play whatever they wanted for free. Don't use the "live" game (where people have paid money for MCs/mechs) as your PTR!

4. This is just my completely unqualified opinion, and I've said it before and I'll say it again: Yes, a TT game isn't 100% translatable into a live-action game, but the more PGI seems to want to monkey with the basic fundamentals, the more (a) people complain, ( PGI gets it WRONG, and © erosion occurs among the basic, fundamental (and older, money spending) fanbase.

OK that's all for now.

I agree I wish I had thought of something less inflamatory than bait and switch to use in this thread. It just seemed appropriate this morning before my first cup of coffee. If I had not used those words I might not be taking so much heat !! It's like a SAUNA in here .

[Faceless Priest]

All I hear in this is "they nerfed rogues so please make my rogue a warrior now, it's only fair since you changed stuff"

Edited by Faceless Priest, 13 November 2012 - 10:09 AM.

[Comguard]

Problem is that PGI has no idea what this game is supposed to look like.

They had months to figure out how to implement DHS, and now we see that they never really bothered to test it. Same with weapons and heat: no vision how it is supposed to work, just band-aiding from patch to patch.

There is no malicious intent in it, they just can't do better, which is sad.

But, hey, do the people in WoT get compensated when Wargaming changes the Tanktress? Wait a second...

[Kousagi]

Xeven, on 13 November 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

I don't work for PGI because I live in Florida (not Canada) and have a GREAT job and would not move to Canada to work for them. Lets not make this personal eh? There were allready LRM boats everywhere! Lots of people upgraded to Artemis then watched the LRM's get nurfed. Sure it is expected, it is beta, but they did not have to charge us for Artemis while it was being tested. Could have put it in for free, balance it, strip it from all mechs and begin charging for it once it is balanced.

I work in software development and databases and understand why they could/should do the things I propose fairly easily.

Again, I am just asking they limit the impact better than they are now on the players while we go through this
tumultuous balancing time of the games development. Why is asking them to do that getting under some peoples skin so they come on here and attempt to belittle me and my opinion? Do you work for PGI? Wonder why not?

If you take a commonly said phrase personally, thats on you.

Thing is, you don't seem to understand what is being said to you by many people. You just repeat the same thing over and over again. yes, there was tons of LRM's cause they were OP at the time. Had they done what you proposed then there would have been a Bigger impact on the players then how they had done it. Their way minimized the damage done to certain parts of the game, where your system would have helped it run rampant.

Just to wrap your head a tad around it, with the LRM buff, my LRM cat was making somewhere around 350-300k cbills a match, repairs were in the 150k mark. So this brought it in line with normal game play with other mechs. Had your system been in place my repair bills would have been like 10k. It would have made a pretty big imbalance in the econ.

Their system works well. You and a very very very few others seem to have a problem with it, but the most of us understand what PGI is doing, and are fine with it.

[Xeven]

DivideByZer0, on 13 November 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

I lol'd at this thread.
Seriously...
Just so you know(echoing other posters), selecting SHS or DHS is something you do at the beginning of a mech build, usually. That's why it costs. I will agree with OP that the mechlab requires some improvement to assist newer players, but by no means is it broken. I do alot of my mech builds in multiple stages to avoid glitches/over/under tonnage.
What you're asking MWO to do (refund) COMPLETELY undermines the whole point of having to pay c-bills for upgrades. That being said, I have wasted MILLIONS of cbills refining my 4 mech builds. You don't always pick a winner. Believe me, I have made some dumb mistakes , but you know what happens?
I tell myself "OH well, I guess I should have been more careful, it IS a beta, after all, better try again when I save up, since whining about it will only upset other players who had similar problems and didn't complain, all while wasting the game developers time."
True story.

I am getting amusement from this thread as well. Making the clock tick by on a slow day . Yeah, Ill keep playing for now till it is boring. I am hoping they can keep pace with content etc... so it never gets boring Just trying to get PGI to consider how their changes impact players a bit better than they are now. I have money to blow on this, not really that worried, just prefer to get more value for my money than I feel I am getting currently. I want PGI to look out for us while they make all these changes.

[Xeven]

Kousagi, on 13 November 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

If you take a commonly said phrase personally, thats on you.

Thing is, you don't seem to understand what is being said to you by many people. You just repeat the same thing over and over again. yes, there was tons of LRM's cause they were OP at the time. Had they done what you proposed then there would have been a Bigger impact on the players then how they had done it. Their way minimized the damage done to certain parts of the game, where your system would have helped it run rampant.

Just to wrap your head a tad around it, with the LRM buff, my LRM cat was making somewhere around 350-300k cbills a match, repairs were in the 150k mark. So this brought it in line with normal game play with other mechs. Had your system been in place my repair bills would have been like 10k. It would have made a pretty big imbalance in the econ.

Their system works well. You and a very very very few others seem to have a problem with it, but the most of us understand what PGI is doing, and are fine with it.

Actually I do see your point on LRM's, guess I should have acknowledge that, but I still think they could have allowed the Artemis upgrade for free for a test period then reversed those upgrades and start charging for them on next patch once they are stable and balanced since we are still in a test environment. You and I have no idea how many others have a problem with it so lets not try and just put some vague statistic in here. I do understand what PGI is trying to do and they don't have to do it at the customers expense.

[Karyudo ds]

Xeven, on 13 November 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

Actually I do see your point on LRM's, guess I should have acknowledge that, but I still think they could have allowed the Artemis upgrade for free for a test period then reversed those upgrades and start charging for them on next patch once they are stable and balanced since we are still in a test environment.

Problem with that is that this is a LIVE environment. You start putting out freebies into the live environment and bait-n-switch you end up with Yen-Lo-Wang.

Now I could see them doing this if they had a mech testing range. Give you access to test them on range in advance of them being officially made available. Once you're using it on other players to increase their repair costs though, it's unfair to remove your costs even if the system itself is free to them and they literally can't just go and turn off repair costs or adjust them to compensate because it would simply give people other things to complain about...being confused.

Which they already are...

[Imagine Dragons]

As time keeps progressing, I wonder if MWO's Founders should of been a kickstarter.

And not a pre-purchase/order analog for a F2P game...

Because personally, with PGI going down the same route with MWO as WG did with WoT now seems like a bad idea.

WG pretty much introduced WoT as a closed beta with its bare-bones core gameplay, with very few tanks.

PGI seems to be going down the same path.

Except...

WG is debateably the more experienced and larger company compared to PGI at the time when WoT was in closed beta (here in NA)...

WoT at the time had no real genre competition, Tank Ace was more or a less, a joke.

Now we have PGI, being smaller and debateably less experienced company trying to do same thing.

In addition, the MW/BT IP is a hot IP and has a rather zealous fanbase.

IMHO to be very "safe" the game should have had another year of development prior to closed beta...

Things like netcode tools, the quantity of Mechs/Equipment, Community Warfare intergrated fully into the client being developed prior to showing the game to the public.

I'm becoming more and more afraid that MWO's CW will esentially be WoT's Internet-Risk-Boardgame.

Edited by XenomorphZZ, 13 November 2012 - 10:42 AM.

[Xeven]

Karyudo ds, on 13 November 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

Problem with that is that this is a LIVE environment. You start putting out freebies into the live environment and bait-n-switch you end up with Yen-Lo-Wang.

Now I could see them doing this if they had a mech testing range. Give you access to test them on range in advance of them being officially made available. Once you're using it on other players to increase their repair costs though, it's unfair to remove your costs even if the system itself is free to them and they literally can't just go and turn off repair costs or adjust them to compensate because it would simply give people other things to complain about...being confused.

Which they already are...

Now we are talking solutions!

[TLBFestus]

Rifter, on 13 November 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

I spent millions and millions on the Artemis upgrades and LRM launchers ON MANY MECHS in my mechbay when i found out how effective LRM's now were, i literally conveted every mech i had with missle hardpoints to LRM boats and installed artemis as they were just super effective, sure they cost alot to rearm but i have premium so it didnt bother me.

Now they have gone from super effective to useless, not even worth it. I would rather play a game with 2 ML than 2 LRM20's im not even kidding. I just spent MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS on tech that is now essentially useless.

I took the liberty of putting in BOLD and underline is your quote above to more specifically point out the problem with the complaint you have.

You went out and dumped MILLIONS and MILLIONS (of pretend money) on upgrades to "MANY MECHS" and you want your money back? Perhaps a wiser thing to do would have been to try it out on ONE mech to see if it worked to your satisfaction first.

I dumped a nice chunk of c-bills into DHS for my Jenner when they came out. Then I found out they didn't work right and that the "fix" wasn't exactly what we expected. Evidently it's 1.4 for game balancing issues, which in the end should only be better for the game as a whole.

Was I upset? Yup a bit, but I only tweaked out ONE mech before deciding not to use them for the forseeable future. I consider it a cost of "doing business" and learned from it.

[VtTimber]

I don't get it... you people must be children... thinking that, even though this is a Beta, that you have any say in the matter of virtual money or even real money you used. If you spent real money, request a refund, if you spent virtual money, then suck it up.

Not only is this a GAME, but it's a Beta of a game. Beta means software, though possibly feature-complete (as someone's definition stated), is not complete and ready for mass consumption by the public. Everyone who willingly decided to download and play this game has acknowledged that they are infact BETA TESTERS, not consumers. Even though they give you the option buying virtual money with real money it is still a Beta and does not change your status.

For the record, I am not a PGI fanboy or even a TT fanboy, I am a fanboy of logic and common sense, both of which many posters have decided to leave at home.

[RAM]

Thank you for your feedback - thread has runs its course.


RAM
ELH
MOD