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Pgi Bait And Switch Style Balancing (Not Fraud)


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#61 Xeven

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:36 AM

View PostJings, on 13 November 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:


You are not bartering for better service, you're accusing them of sales fraud. I highly doubt they will be even remotely inclined to consider adjusting their service with you throwing accusations of such a nature at them.

You must have missed this bit of my original thread post where I explained I do not think they did it intentionally but rather amounts to the same thing intentional or not. Their refusal to do anything about it does support the argument though.

Quote

Anyway, Bait and Switch is an age old tactic used by salesman where they show you one thing then switch it for another. I am not saying PGI planned to do this strategically but it amounts to the same thing when you make huge drastic changes to a product or service after it has been paid for.


#62 Cole Allard

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:36 AM

This game...you might have heard of it...is in a beta. (no, dont come with I dont care stomping) Just think if a Beta means: finished product (that needs customer support) OR work in progress (what needs nothing).

PGI stated that they are going to stay in beta for well...for ever? Does a beta have customers? No, it has testers.

The problem we have here...since there IS NO PRODUCT...there is NO REFUND. Every payment given is counted as "support for a project" if you so want, every click on C-bills is seen as "test of work in progress".

What WE need to do, is get PGI to officially release the product. Change it from "in development or Beta" to "this is it". This would change nothing for us (work could stay in progress)...only that we could actually demand support/changes/bug fixes/hacker bans/everything.

If you think about this: do you know of ANY other game that is making cash from live gameplay WITHOUT release?

The last 20 years it was like: there is a game...or there is no game. Since MWO there is half-a-game. Thats new, I just need to get used to this...

question: is the gaming industrie at the brink of a new age if this model shows successfull? Will we players in the future be asked to pay for work in progress...and if yes, what if the developer does not even give a releasedate?

#63 Xeven

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:37 AM

View PostThe Basilisk, on 13 November 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:


But you seem to have enough time in a day to do irrelevant ranting :)

(Man I enjoy watch ranting these "WAHHHHHAAAHAAA I bought a surprise package and got not what was on the label" cry babys)

As do you LOL.

#64 potatoparrot

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:38 AM

View PostXeven, on 13 November 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

You must have missed this bit of my original thread post where I explained I do not think they did it intentionally but rather amounts to the same thing intentional or not. Their refusal to do anything about it does support the argument though.


I sincerely hope you realize that you're basically saying:

"I'm not saying they meant to commit sales fraud... But they committed sales fraud."

That's accusing them of sales fraud. I don't give a damn whether you're accusing them of accidental or intentional sales fraud - You're still accusing them of sales fraud, which just isn't cool, man.

#65 Xeven

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:39 AM

View PostSkyrek, on 13 November 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:


Obviously PGI places no value in customer satisfaction especially after they have made changes due to customer feedback. Give me a break.

You went into spending the CBills knowing full well that changes could be made. At least, I'd hope you would understand that things would most likely be changed as new features are added and adjusted?

Sure did and fully expected to be allowed to discuss my dissatisfaction when their implementation of changes when that occurs. Again I just asking for them to consider us the customer while they make these huge changes in Open Beta. Why are people so upset about that?

#66 Kousagi

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:39 AM

Anyone find it ironic that the OP is demanding a refund of Cbills for his Buffed heat sinks? I mean, they work better now then before they patched them and he wants a refund? I'm confused.... Are people really that brilliant these days?

*sigh* And yes MWO is basiclly released, but at the same time is still in Beta. They say its in beta to warn you that there will be drastic changes to things when they are needed. Things are not done yet, its a work in progress, but one you can play without fear for losing anything you've earned.

#67 Tastian

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:40 AM

View PostXeven, on 13 November 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

If you order from your TV provider a Superbowl game and instead they give you a Wrestling match do you deserve to get a refund? After all its all just virtual shows on TV. Nothing tangible there.


Yes it is a part of the equation.


If you sit through the entire wrestling match then you do not deserve a refund. Its like complaining about your food at a restaurant after you eat every bite.

I notice you've been a member for quite some time. Chances are you've seen numerous changes and have had gone through multiple wipes. Did you complain after each wipe that you wanted to keep your cbills because of all the time you spent making them? I think you know the drill by now.

Most online games that have patches buff and nerf constantly. Our virtual goods go through so many iterations of usefulness and worthlessness. I don't think anyone is surprised by changes.

#68 Dukarriope

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:40 AM

This isn't a wine thread?! B-but I wanted wine...

#69 potatoparrot

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:40 AM

View PostXeven, on 13 November 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

Sure did and fully expected to be allowed to discuss my dissatisfaction when their implementation of changes when that occurs. Again I just asking for them to consider us the customer while they make these huge changes in Open Beta. Why are people so upset about that?


It doesn't seem to be clicking that we're not arguing against your dissatisfaction with their changes - We're arguing against your decision to accuse them of sales fraud. That's what we don't agree with.

#70 Xeven

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:41 AM

View PostJings, on 13 November 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

I sincerely hope you realize that you're basically saying: "I'm not saying they meant to commit sales fraud... But they committed sales fraud." That's accusing them of sales fraud. I don't give a damn whether you're accusing them of accidental or intentional sales fraud - You're still accusing them of sales fraud, which just isn't cool, man.


I am not accusing PGI of sales Fraud! There I said it and will post the same in the original OP.

#71 Agent of Change

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:41 AM

View PostXeven, on 13 November 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:

I agree with your points but that does not mean I cannot come here and discuss the issue with other customers and possibly PGI in a discussion forum and possibly barter for a better service or product which is the point of this thread. I amy indeed not have a strong leg to stand on but that does not mean we cannot ask them for better service. They certainly can deny us that and I will have to live with it. I do not think I have demanded anything. I am simply stating my opinion, providing a few alternatives to just say no to the customers. I am not even particulary upset about it.


I wouldn't say you shouldn't air your grievances, I mean that's what a forum is for right? Discussion. My main point wasn't to tell you you were wrong or that you shouldn't speak your mind, just that the original tone struck my a a little misguided. Again I do sympathize, I've made my own mistakes with the mechlab system both using and wasting resources I did not intend to. However, I do think PGI has bigger fish to fry due to the situation that either they or their investors has put them in.

We do need good customer support but at this point answering you request for a cbill refund to the affirmative would set a potentially dangerous precedent that would have them chasing refunds for everyone every time a player was dissatisfied for potentially less legitimate reasons than your own. The line needed to be drawn somewhere, they drew it very broadly, I have hopes that this can be moderated if necessary but most likely won't be as long as they insist on using the qestionable 'open-beta' label for the status of the game.

Edited by Agent of Change, 13 November 2012 - 06:43 AM.


#72 Timberpoes

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:46 AM

It isn't sales fraud when you spend real money to get Disney Dollars in a beta.

I mean, they could pull out the nerf shovel and hit something over the head with it repeatedly, then build a nerf hole and put the feature into the nerf coffin only to bury it 6 nerfs under - And that's game balancing. Ultimately, you paid money for Disney Dollars. Then you paid Disney Dollars for something else. I don't think the law covers entitlement due to your Disney Dollar purchase being balanced.

That's like suing the makers of Monopoly because they decide to slash the rent of whatever stupid *** dark blue properties your country may or may not have. (In England it's Mayfair/Park Lane)

tl;dr - DISNEY DOLLARS. Deal with it.

#73 Lane

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:47 AM

They money is real, call it whatever you want, it is not beta. Now, should they refund for double heatsink changes or mech lab snafu's. No, not unless it is a massive problem. There are more important things to QQ about.

#74 Timberpoes

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:49 AM

Disney Dollars.

#75 Alcatraz968

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:50 AM

[REDACTED ] They could and still might reset EVERYTHING if they had to. It's BETA meaning where testing. When it goes open and the Mechlab rips you off 100 Million CB's then they can talk to you.

Edited by miSs, 13 November 2012 - 07:42 AM.
personal attacks


#76 Xeven

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:56 AM

View PostKousagi, on 13 November 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

Anyone find it ironic that the OP is demanding a refund of Cbills for his Buffed heat sinks? I mean, they work better now then before they patched them and he wants a refund? I'm confused.... Are people really that brilliant these days?

*sigh* And yes MWO is basiclly released, but at the same time is still in Beta. They say its in beta to warn you that there will be drastic changes to things when they are needed. Things are not done yet, its a work in progress, but one you can play without fear for losing anything you've earned.

I am not demanding a refund. I am simply informing other players and disscussing the issue on the disccusion forum. Did you see a demand in there somewhere? I understand it is beta. Can we not negotiate and discuss how they implement changes and the impact it has on the customers?

View PostAgent of Change, on 13 November 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:


I wouldn't say you shouldn't air your grievances, I mean that's what a forum is for right? Discussion. My main point wasn't to tell you you were wrong or that you shouldn't speak your mind, just that the original tone struck my a a little misguided. Again I do sympathize, I've made my own mistakes with the mechlab system both using and wasting resources I did not intend to. However, I do think PGI has bigger fish to fry due to the situation that either they or their investors has put them in.

We do need good customer support but at this point answering you request for a cbill refund to the affirmative would set a potentially dangerous precedent that would have them chasing refunds for everyone every time a player was dissatisfied for potentially less legitimate reasons than your own. The line needed to be drawn somewhere, they drew it very broadly, I have hopes that this can be moderated if necessary but most likely won't be as long as they insist on using the qestionable 'open-beta' label for the status of the game.

Honestly they could refund everyone every C-bill used in upgrades thus far and just stop charging for them till things are balanced. How would that hurt them? They are just virtual dollars...right?

What they need is a test server.

#77 Ritter Cuda

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:56 AM

sigh we have been open beta for less then 2 weeks CB are not real they are just time I have pissed away million with changeing my mind on builds on engines alone. if you like playing then play if you are only playing to get cb's you might as well move on

#78 AtomicFrawg

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:57 AM

View PostXeven, on 13 November 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

As do you LOL.


But he is not complaining that his time is money.

View PostLane, on 13 November 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

They money is real, call it whatever you want, it is not beta. Now, should they refund for double heatsink changes or mech lab snafu's. No, not unless it is a massive problem. There are more important things to QQ about.


C-Bills are not real. Try going buy something in real life with C-Bills and see what happens.

The Game is in Beta. It can and will be changed at anytime time when the Devs feel its necessary. PS. there is no such thing as going Live with a F2P model. Look at WOT, they have been out of beta for over a year and yet they still make changes. Big Changes.

To recap, You time is not worth money and C-Bills are not real money.

#79 potatoparrot

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:57 AM

View PostXeven, on 13 November 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

I am not demanding a refund. I am simply informing other players and disscussing the issue on the disccusion forum. Did you see a demand in there somewhere? I understand it is beta. Can we not negotiate and discuss how they implement changes and the impact it has on the customers?


Honestly they could refund everyone every C-bill used in upgrades thus far and just stop charging for them till things are balanced. How would that hurt them? They are just virtual dollars...right?

What they need is a test server.


You baffle me.

To quote your original post; "I am only asking for a refund of game money[...]"

Please, I implore you, delete this thread and remake it with a rephrased opening post.

#80 Kazooal

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:59 AM

Well, the point can't be answered without short legal analysis..


1. Did you know you were in a Beta ? Answer is yes (I hope you can't ignore that point).

2. Are things, objects, gameplay, values, etc... supposed to be frequently modified in a Beta ? Answer is obviously yes.

-> Conclusion n° 1 : You accepted that all your in-game stuff will be frequently and deeply changed.

3. Are all these MechLab upgrades bought with real money ? Answer shall be qualified : if you only won C-Bills by gaming, no. But if you converted part or all of your MC in C-Bills to then buy/upgrade stuff with these C-Bills, the answer is definitely yes !

4. If something is broken in stuff you have bought with real money, is the seller supposed to refund money (or to repair/replace the stuff) ? Its depends on countries and legal systems, but the answer is generaly yes.

5. Are you in a case where PGI is a seller, you a buyer and MWO stuffs the objects of a sale ? Answer is negative, because sale contracts need generaly a material object (such books, DVD,...) to be delivered, or the transfer of property on a material or immaterial right (such a domain name). Were you granted the transfer of ownership on anything in MWO stuff ? Answer is of course no.

-> Conclusion n° 2 : You are not in a sale terms situation, in which you can claim for refunds

6. If it's not a sale, is it a service ? Answer is probably yes !

7. When someone pays for a service and this service is broken or not completely provided, has he the right to claim for refund ? Again, it depends on countries and situations, but generally the answer is yes !

8. So, is PGI service broken ? -> please refer to Conclusion n° 1 : playing a Beta game, you accepted the fact that PGI service is just supplying a test platform, where everything will change every day. So answer is no.

-> Conclusion n° 3 : PGI meet obviously his service conditions.

9. So, being admitted that PGI service is OK even when providing moving/costs changing/overpowered/overnerfed stuffs, is it just normal that we PAY for such unstable gaming conditions ? Answer is clearly NO.

10. But...so ? Why did we pay for that ? THAT's the main question ! I was really wondering about it : WHY do we pay to do the testers' job ? Answer is quite obvious and announced in many parts of the site and forum : we SUPPORT the game creation / launching. We accept to give money to help this enormous and ambitious project !

-> Conclusion n° 4 (and last one ) : Until end of beta, your money is not a payment. It's a DONATION. And you are free not to give it, to give more, stop to give or wait to have more stable stuff before giving again. And when donations, no way to claim :) !

Edited by Kazooal, 13 November 2012 - 07:02 AM.






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