117 replies to this topic

[Alois Hammer]

Xeven, on 13 November 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

You must have missed this bit of my original thread post where I explained I do not think they did it intentionally but rather amounts to the same thing intentional or not. Their refusal to do anything about it does support the argument though.

No, I didn't miss that part. I do find it amusing, however, that you insist you're not accusing them of deliberately using the "bait and switch" tactic, then quoting yourself stating that what they did do has the same effect.

By any rational reasoning, if what they did "amounts to the same thing as" a bait and switch then you are indeed accusing them of committing fraud- you're just trying to insist that you're not doing what you've emphatically done, and reiterated, and quoted.

Edited by Alois Hammer, 13 November 2012 - 07:04 AM.

[AtomicFrawg]

Kazooal, on 13 November 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

Well, the point can't be answered without short legal analysis..



3. Are all these MechLab upgrades bought with real money ? Answer shall be qualified : if you only won C-Bills by gaming, no. But if you converted part or all of your MC in C-Bills to then buy/upgrade stuff with these C-Bills, the answer is definitely yes !

I agree with everything but #3.

You knowing bought MC to buy a mech and willingly sold the mech for C-Bills. When you click the sell button and window pops up showing the c-bill amount. You must then click ok to complete the sell.

PGI is in no way responsible for the end users laziness in not wanting to spend time grinding c-bills and using the game mechanics to circumvent the grinding of c-bills.

[Vassago Rain]

VtTimber, on 13 November 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

This is a BETA... a BETA... do you know what BETA means? It means the game is in an incomplete state... it means there will be changes.... it means, DON'T spend REAL money on ANYTHING unless you don't care about it later because odds are, IT WILL CHANGE.

This goes for anyone else complaining about ANYTHING in this BETA... its an effing BETA... not a finished game. I swear to god, 85% of you people think you're playing a full-on released game that you bought from Steam... Open your eyes and act like you're not idiots...

This entire time PGI has been running a BETA therefore they haven't done any 'bait and switch'... you are testing their game for them....

And just to recap...
THIS IS A BETA!

So we're never going to leave beta?

[Agent of Change]

Xeven, on 13 November 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

Honestly they could refund everyone every C-bill used in upgrades thus far and just stop charging for them till things are balanced. How would that hurt them? They are just virtual dollars...right?

What they need is a test server.

Theoretically yes they could refund everything, however this would require man hours that would not be going towards bug fixes and content, also it could potentially break the economy (not a guarantee but a risk) and require another reset... something they said they would not do and since the game is functionally 'released' cannot do without alienating the audience they are trying to draw in.

Hell yes they do need a test server, for a couple hundred/thousand actual beta testers so that we can sand box this and actually find the problems before they become an issue in the wild.

y'know it's almost like we need to do some kind of... closed beta, I wonder if anyone has thought of that yet?

[soarra]

Even if this game was released and the made changes, guess what its their decision. So when i played wow and the nerfed the hell out of my class i should asked for money back because they made changes? and that was a released game. What is wrong with the new generation of gamers.
This game is in open beta because they wanted more people testing, if you arent happy with how things are changing come back in a few months once more stuff is implemented and balance is finished.

[S3dition]

Xeven, on 13 November 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

I am not accusing PGI of sales Fraud in anyway even if the Thread title might imply so.

This is not a QQ or wine thread. I just want to make sure other customers know what to expect from PGI in regards to Open Beta changes, the time you put in to make C-Bills and your MC you pay cash for.

I sent a ticket to PGI requesting a refund of the C-Bills I spent making upgrades in the currently clunky Mechlab. The one that does not let you save and see all your mods and upgrades before you buy. The one that fails to report accurate status of upgrades and mods in real time. The Mechlab that fails to save and often appears to eat C-Bills.

I also cited the fact they announce Double Heat Sinks and release them and then nurf them or make changes to upgrades that make your purchase no longer viable thus wasting the C-bills you spend time grinding away to get. Not only that, to reverse the upgrade that they made no longer viable, they make you spend even more C-Bills.

I simply asked them to reverse all my upgrades and refund my C-bills for each time I made a upgrade or downgrade. I told them I would refrain from making further upgrades and such until they stabilize the Mechlab, game and balance issues. I realize they will be making balance changes often while in open beta so I think as a gesture to customers they should not charge us for the upgrades until they stabilize them balance wise.

I received a very nice response basically saying they can't afford to start doing those type refunds as people would abuse them etc...but they could feel my pain. Wish I had the email here at work. It was very nicely worded and did explain their side to a point I could understand their side of the issue.

However, I feel this is contrary to good customer relations especially when we are using real cash in the mix, buying virtual goods. Companies should honor the tradition of real life sales and allow refunds when they drastically change the services you paid for. Just my opinion.

We are in Open Beta which means it is a test environment. We the customer should not have to make permanent decisions on our game finances during such a volatile time in the development of the game.

You already got my REAL money, now please provide a good service for that money. I am only asking for a refund of game money not the real dollars transferred from my bank to yours.

Anyway, Bait and Switch is an age old tactic used by salesman where they show you one thing then switch it for another. I am not saying PGI planned to do this strategically but it amounts to the same thing when you make huge drastic changes to a product or service after it has been paid for.

Beware as of right now PGI is not going to help you out with these issues so be careful what you spend.

Making a huge whine thread and calling it fact does not change the fact that it's both a whine and wrong. You're upset because they are balancing the game? Stop playing all games. Seriously, all of them. Even printed games that are decades old go through this. How many patches does WoW have? How many does Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 have? EvE? Does DnD 4.0 play like 2nd ed? They nerfed the hell out of the Guardian class a month into GW2 AND changed the hotkeys on it (you can't change them back, you just have to relearn all the keys).

Welcome to life. Spend less time crying and more time enjoying

[Kousagi]

Xeven, on 13 November 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

I am not demanding a refund. I am simply informing other players and disscussing the issue on the disccusion forum. Did you see a demand in there somewhere? I understand it is beta. Can we not negotiate and discuss how they implement changes and the impact it has on the customers?

It was a demand. As, if it was only a request like you posted in your OP, then you would not be on the forums now. They denied you your refund, so you run to the forums to Inform everyone of the great injustice that was befallen upon you in a attempt to rally support for your misguided cause.

They didn't hide anything from you at all. There was no bait and switch. This is a BETA, even if its akin to a release, they still call it a BETA for a reason. If you wish to ignore that reason, then its your own fault. Is this normal operating procedure? Not for normal games, but for this style of a game is kinda is. WoT did much the same stuff, even after their release. They even took my T32's one strong point away from me! they later gave it back... much later. Grated that strong point made it one OP beast when used right.

In short, you are wrong, they are right. Theres nothing really for you to argue about, or bring to light.

[Purlana]

They promised you a founders cat, they delivered you a founders cat.

Where is the bait and switch? And actually comparing LRMs to TT, they gave you a boost.


If you really want to complain about a bait and switch you should be complaining that LRMs do too much DMG when compared to TT.

Edited by Purlana, 13 November 2012 - 08:00 AM.

[Xeven]

Kousagi, on 13 November 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

It was a demand. As, if it was only a request like you posted in your OP, then you would not be on the forums now. They denied you your refund, so you run to the forums to Inform everyone of the great injustice that was befallen upon you in a attempt to rally support for your misguided cause.

They didn't hide anything from you at all. There was no bait and switch. This is a BETA, even if its akin to a release, they still call it a BETA for a reason. If you wish to ignore that reason, then its your own fault. Is this normal operating procedure? Not for normal games, but for this style of a game is kinda is. WoT did much the same stuff, even after their release. They even took my T32's one strong point away from me! they later gave it back... much later. Grated that strong point made it one OP beast when used right.

In short, you are wrong, they are right. Theres nothing really for you to argue about, or bring to light.

You are entitled to your opininon but I am not demanding anything. Work slow this morning thought Id come on here let others know of my expereince with them on the issue and perhaps gain attention to an issue and possibly get some customer service improvement. Your points are valid but that does not prevent them from considering how the changes impact the customer base and adjusting their implementation of changes to best satisfy the customer base.

It is completely thier choice this is nothing but customer feedback and nothing more. Not a demand just and opinion of how they could do things better for us all.

Edited by Xeven, 13 November 2012 - 08:05 AM.

[Taiji]

John Norad, on 13 November 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

Geez, do YOU know what beta means?

Here's the most common definition:"Beta (named after the second letter of the Greek alphabet) is the software development phase following alpha. It generally begins when the software is feature complete."

Now please stop repeating things parrot-fashon.
The game is far far from beta. Even perpetual beta would be a huge euphemism considering what has been announced, what's in the game and what's actually working.

I'm sick of people blindly throwing around arguments for the sake of it. Call it beta if you must, but beware of the fact it'll make you look like an irrational fanboy.

Geez, do YOU know what 'generally' means?

It means that one should not expect it to be feature complete, because that's only 'generally' found to be the case.

And if you were arranging the development of very complex software that you need 1000s of people to test, then you might want to introduce features gradually, in the best order you can find. Because this can act to reduce the complexity to some extent in the beginning, and so works out being very useful in terms of getting a clearer idea about how different features are affecting each other, and affecting the game as a whole.

Imagine if PGI had implemented Community Warfare first. You'd have no new MW game to play right now. The playable game would still be in alpha. So complaining, instead of merely commenting, that this beta is not feature complete is essentially the same as complaining that you can currently help out by playing it if you want. Which would be an absolutely ridiculous thing to complain about, and I'm sure you can see why.

Edited by Taiji, 13 November 2012 - 08:24 AM.

[AlixX]

On the OP.

This all comes down to yourself. You got the c-bills and you buy the mech and upgrades. Stuff will be balanced though out till the end of this. (hopefully) Meaning upgrades will be weaker or stronger in the future. Whining about ''losing'' c-bills because of a patch is nonsense. Crying about this wont earn u c-bills.

I dont care about c-bills, they are there to be spend. Just think about what u want to do with it. Bad choice? Well go farm some more then.

AtomicFrawg, on 13 November 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

Well first of all you crazy for spending real money on a Mech that you want to turn over for c-bills. You time has zero value. If you truly feel your time is worth money, maybe go do something else that will provide a return on your self investment?

You decided to play the game they did not force you.

We get it, you dont pay for games and dont work in real life so u wont understand why to we buy MC....

[Kousagi]

Xeven, on 13 November 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

You are entitled to your opininon but I am not demanding anything. Work slow this morning thought Id come on here let others know of my expereince with them on the issue and perhaps gain attention to an issue and possibly get some customer service improvement. Your points are valid but that does not prevent them from considering how the changes impact the customer base and adjusting their implementation of changes to best satisfy the customer base.

It is completely thier choice this is nothing but customer feedback and nothing more. Not a demand just and opinion of how they could do things better for us all.

Thats the thing, they DO think about how their changes effect people. You just think they don't cause you think you got hit with a negative side of things, when really you got the positive side of it. Theres more to the sides then just you. They thought that pure 2.0 double would cause a grave imbalance in mech builds, so they acted accordingly. Much the same way they did with the LRM buff, it was hotfixed in 2 days with a nerf, cause it was ruining the game. So they do care, you just think they don't.

I've never had to deal with their custorm service, but I think they are pretty smart to turn you away on that refund. As others have said, if they gave you that, it would open the flood gates. Thats something they just can't do. So what is there to improve?

[Timberpoes]

Disney Dollars.

[Agent of Change]

Timberpoes, on 13 November 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

Disney Dollars.

You said that already.

There is no reason to spam just to get a post count up, there are lots of threads that would benefit from actual participation in the conversation.

Edited by Agent of Change, 13 November 2012 - 09:00 AM.

[AtomicFrawg]

AlixX, on 13 November 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

On the OP.

This all comes down to yourself. You got the c-bills and you buy the mech and upgrades. Stuff will be balanced though out till the end of this. (hopefully) Meaning upgrades will be weaker or stronger in the future. Whining about ''losing'' c-bills because of a patch is nonsense. Crying about this wont earn u c-bills.

I dont care about c-bills, they are there to be spend. Just think about what u want to do with it. Bad choice? Well go farm some more then.



We get it, you dont pay for games and dont work in real life so u wont understand why to we buy MC....

Please re-read my post. Its the crying about trying to get a refund on the C-Bills that was turned over by buying a Mech with MC and selling for c-bills. It had zero to do with buying MC or the ability to buy MC.

[wuselfuzz]

Fun fact:

Quote

The Mac OS X Public Beta (internally codenamed "Kodiak") was an early beta version of Apple Computer's Mac OS X operating system Cheetah. It was released to the public on September 13, 2000 for US$29.95. It allowed software developers and early adopters to test a preview of the upcoming operating system and develop software for the forthcoming operating system before its final release.

http://en.wikipedia....S_X_Public_Beta

ZOMG, Apple charging money for a beta!

[Galland]

Some people need to manage their expectations. When the Founders Program was still going on, people spent $30, $60, or even $120 to have guaranteed early access to the Closed Beta. PGI incentivized this by giving Founders certain perks depending on their contribution like Founders' 'Mech(s), MC and some Premium time. You did not by any means by a boxed copy of MechWarrior 5 that was 100% bug-free complete and ready to play. Being a Founder myself, I would be very angry if MWO fails, because the investment I made (and that's all it is) didn't work out, but I don't for a second feel that I'm entitled to something.

MechWarrior Online is a Free-to-Play game, and its success depends upon people paying real money for in-game currency. Being Free-to-Play, you can either spend time to get in-game currency or pay real money to get it. If the in-game currency is too easy to come by, then this game will fail as no one will pay real money. The game is designed to destroy its in-game currency in order to encourage the influx of real-world money. The 'Mech upgrades for ES, FF, and DHS are all part of that design. I admit it's a little too easy right now to waste money on upgrades, but this is all part of the Beta testing process, and hopefully it will get ironed-out in the interface so that it's not too easy to accidentally waste your C-bills when playing around with your 'Mech loadout. At the same time, it is the player's responsibility to be completely aware of what they are doing when they click that final submit button and how much of their C-bills/MC will go away. If there was some screw-up and you lost C-bills or MC through a software bug, then by all means you should be entitled to get it back. But if you made changes to your 'Mech that you didn't like and lost your C-bills/MC, then you're just SOL and you have to go grind. That's my 2 cents, anyway.

[Xeven]

Kousagi, on 13 November 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

Thats the thing, they DO think about how their changes effect people. You just think they don't cause you think you got hit with a negative side of things, when really you got the positive side of it. Theres more to the sides then just you. They thought that pure 2.0 double would cause a grave imbalance in mech builds, so they acted accordingly. Much the same way they did with the LRM buff, it was hotfixed in 2 days with a nerf, cause it was ruining the game. So they do care, you just think they don't.

I've never had to deal with their custorm service, but I think they are pretty smart to turn you away on that refund. As others have said, if they gave you that, it would open the flood gates. Thats something they just can't do. So what is there to improve?

I am sure they do think of customers and how things effect people. As for improvements they could not charge us for features considered to be in testing. I really don't get why you people have a problem with asking them to give us a break. It is beta for them and us and balance issues should not always fall on the shoulders of the customer. They have a great customer service team, they are responsive and nice.

If you add a new feature, you could intially make it free for it's testing phase, then reverse the feature such as upgrades and begin charing CB or MC for it after it is proven stable and balanced.

Very simple example of how it could be done putting customer satisfaction first:

Patch Notes

1. New DHS patch comming.
2. Initial deployment will be free for a test period.
3. Once DHS are stable and balanced we will reverse all DHS's upgrades and begin charging CB and MC for the upgrade.

Very simple example 2 of how it could be done putting customer satisfaction first:

Patch Notes:

1. New LRM patch comming.
2. Initialy LRM's will be free for a test period.
3. Once LRM are stable and balanced we will reverse all LRM purchases mods and begin charging CB and MC for the LRM's.

This prevents customers from buying one thing only to wake up the next day to find a patch changed the item or service they purchased. Pretty simple really.

The point is to make the least negative impact on customer game experience while in a test phase of development. That is all I am suggesting they do.

They not demanindg they do it the way I propose but they have room for improvement in my opinion. Thats all.

I don't feel I am entitltled to have them do it my way or they have to make me happy or that they are commiting fraud or what ever. I just proposing to them they could improve their methods to ease the impact on the customer base.

[Elandyll]

VtTimber, on 13 November 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

This is a BETA... a BETA... do you know what BETA means? It means the game is in an incomplete state... it means there will be changes.... it means, DON'T spend REAL money on ANYTHING unless you don't care about it later because odds are, IT WILL CHANGE.

This goes for anyone else complaining about ANYTHING in this BETA... its an effing BETA... not a finished game. I swear to god, 85% of you people think you're playing a full-on released game that you bought from Steam... Open your eyes and act like you're not idiots...

This entire time PGI has been running a BETA therefore they haven't done any 'bait and switch'... you are testing their game for them....

And just to recap...
THIS IS A BETA!

If they sell (as in real life $$ sell) stuff, it's not really Beta. Just saying.

It's more of a glorified demo, with the purpose to stress test servers with a supposedly large influx of players. Open Betas always have been exactly that, but in this case they're already selling services, which would in fact make it more retail than Open Beta really.

In the end, it looks like a Beta, it behaves like a Beta (Alpha some would say), it's even called an Open Beta, but it really is a retail game, because the cash shop is live.

Edited by Elandyll, 13 November 2012 - 09:38 AM.

[WithSilentWings]

Xeven, on 13 November 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

We are in Open Beta which means it is a test environment. We the customer should not have to make permanent decisions on our game finances during such a volatile time in the development of the game.

You as a customer have ever right to not spend your money on a product you know is in beta testing....

I don't understand what's so hard about this.

If you want everything to be fine and dandy and have no complaints about anything please wait until launch--nobody is making you play this game right now and nobody is making you spend money or c-bills or XP.

Imagine what you're saying here... Imagine if anyone could tell PGI that they're unhappy with the results of the money/c-bills/xp they spent and have it reversed... You'd have thousands of people spending all their MC and c-bills at once for fun and then requesting the transactions be reversed so they can buy the one or two builds that worked for them and save the rest of their cash for later...

I can see your point of view but this is a small to mid-sized developer not even 2 years into development doing their best to focus on game content and experience. Do you really want them to need a customer service staff twice the size of the development staff to deal with these things?