117 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

VtTimber, on 13 November 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

This is a BETA... a BETA... do you know what BETA means? It means the game is in an incomplete state... it means there will be changes.... it means, DON'T spend REAL money on ANYTHING unless you don't care about it later because odds are, IT WILL CHANGE.

This goes for anyone else complaining about ANYTHING in this BETA... its an effing BETA... not a finished game. I swear to god, 85% of you people think you're playing a full-on released game that you bought from Steam... Open your eyes and act like you're not idiots...

This entire time PGI has been running a BETA therefore they haven't done any 'bait and switch'... you are testing their game for them....

And just to recap...
THIS IS A BETA!

Beta or no Beta, it's real money that people spend here. I think they still have a responsibility to deliver something for it and to treat their customer money with care. They are clearly taking the money not just to test their transaction systems - they are doing it to earn money from the game and fund further development. If they didn't, they could just refund every player automatically at the end of each month, or something like that.

[Blastcaps]

Drunky, on 13 November 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

You say you spent C-bills, and then go on to say that they should refund you your C-bills because they have your real money. non sequitur.

I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure they'd help you out if you bought something with MC and were dissatisfied; to me this really seems like a case of them not wanting to use customer support hours on every non-profit, no cash involved C-bill purchase.

or if they do one they'd have a shed load to then do and having limited staff resources atm on open beta for development etc....
to the OP:
PCbills are free and gained by playing so the cost essentialy is nothing, if on the other hand you spent MC on say the wang and were seriously dissatified with it, I'm quite sure they'd refund it as well as taking your wang away because it was something you effectively spent real money on.
your complaining about things being changed to tune and balance on something that is still in beta and not finished testing nor finalised, if you think this is bad, try having been in the closed beta and seeing neumours wipes, removing all your pilot tree progress, mechs, and the builds you had on them, then having to try and remember how all the builds went etc. trust me that was worse, nevermind that evil ecconemy patch that made scruge at his worst seem generous by comparison lol.

[aspect]

"Buying" things in a video game is not intended to be a solid investment...even games that have been out for years go through re-balancing. League of legends just did a big patch last night that re-arranged a huge amount of stuff. Complaining about being unhappy with your rented digital goods that you bought with cash because they were altered is absurd.

So we are left with the c-bill "purchases", which are actually just a direct output of you voluntarily playing a free game. Note: I said "game". You are mad because your time is valuable...may I suggest doing something other than playing video games?

Seriously, have you ever heard of personal responsibility? Decide what you want to do with your time and money and then take responsibility for your decision. This game has never been described as finished, and if you really thought that there would be no drastic balance changes in the first couple months of open beta then you should probably stick to released games that you can buy at gamestop.

[potatoparrot]

Rifter, on 13 November 2012 - 06:13 AM, said:

Perhaps you should familerize yourself with the definition of a beta:

Beta

Beta (named after the second letter of the Greek alphabet) is the software development phase following alpha. It generally begins when the software is feature complete.

Full definition located here

http://en.wikipedia....ease_life_cycle

You, sir, are an imbecile.

You read my argument in a cursory manner, an argument which uses facts and language to get a point across to you - You then assume I don't know what a beta is and discard my argument based on that assumption.

You are incorrect in your assumption that this game fits into the classical definition of a beta, and you even prove yourself incorrect with your own provided definition. This game isn't even beta. It's Alpha. They call it beta because everyone calls it beta now - It's lost all meaning.

But if you're trying to claim that this game is feature complete, you're a lost hope. There is a laundry-list of features planned and not implemented, previously implemented and removed due to network issues as well as features imminently coming.

This game is not finished and your wiki link doesn't change that.

You are entitled to nothing.

[Penance]

VtTimber, on 13 November 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

This is a BETA... a BETA... do you know what BETA means? It means the game is in an incomplete state... it means there will be changes.... it means, DON'T spend REAL money on ANYTHING unless you don't care about it later because odds are, IT WILL CHANGE.

This goes for anyone else complaining about ANYTHING in this BETA... its an effing BETA... not a finished game. I swear to god, 85% of you people think you're playing a full-on released game that you bought from Steam... Open your eyes and act like you're not idiots...

This entire time PGI has been running a BETA therefore they haven't done any 'bait and switch'... you are testing their game for them....

And just to recap...
THIS IS A BETA!

Not really. It's called Open Beta, which is basically the release. Beta's typically come with resets, of which there are no more, and our premium time counting down is very real (until they reset that when they add the button to start it for founders).

SO, let me ask you, since they will reset founders premium time, and add a button to allow founders to choose when their premium time starts, does that mean PGI should TAKE AWAY all the extra Cbills we've earned since we might have chosen to not start our premium time when OB started? nope.

I understand what the OP is saying. If they want this to be a release, call it that. Calling it a beta has a connotation, and anything that goes wrong with accounts shouldn't be held against us, which currently it is. I think this is the OP's main concern, is that he believes since they are calling it an "OPEN BETA" it's not really live, therefore everything that happens now doesn't count. He basically wants another reset. Problem is that these devs consider the OB release.

I'm not really upset about things. Sure, sometimes the game will double dip me for rearm costs, I'd love all of those costs refunded, but it's not going to happen.

The way this game is being put together is a double edged sword. They implement systems, as placeholders, then work on them. People in the meantime might spend money on it with the hopes that when it goes live, it works. most of the time things might not work 100% as intended. But this is every game. Battlefield 3 for example releases expansions that have issues all the time, people pay and it's bugged, do they get refunds nope...because the game gets fixed.

Edited by Penance, 13 November 2012 - 06:22 AM.

[Xeven]

Agent of Change, on 13 November 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

The larger point is playing the game in it's current state is a choice. No one has forced you to spend time on it, nor were there ever an requirements that you spend c-bills on the 'new thing' (most people are going to because that's largely why we are here), it remains a personal choice. Now i would normally disregard my last sentiment as a totally disingenuous argument if not for one fact, PGI has stressed this is an 'open-beta', now how ever we feel about the actual status of the game their insistance on that term creates an implied expectation. I.e. **** is bugged and **** will break, or 'play at your own risk' as you will be finding and dealing with changes and bugs some of which will be game or economy breaking or both.

It really sucks that whoever made the call put their customers in a situation like this in light of what is for all intents and purposes is release (that is a whole other ball of wax) but the point is I don't think you have a strong leg to stand on in feeling wronged here. i understand your frustration I do but I just can't agree with you.

I agree with your points but that does not mean I cannot come here and discuss the issue with other customers and possibly PGI in a discussion forum and possibly barter for a better service or product which is the point of this thread. I amy indeed not have a strong leg to stand on but that does not mean we cannot ask them for better service. They certainly can deny us that and I will have to live with it. I do not think I have demanded anything. I am simply stating my opinion, providing a few alternatives to just say no to the customers. I am not even particulary upset about it.

Edited by Xeven, 13 November 2012 - 06:19 AM.

[Apoc1138]

John Norad, on 13 November 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

Geez, do YOU know what beta means?

Here's the most common definition:"Beta (named after the second letter of the Greek alphabet) is the software development phase following alpha. It generally begins when the software is feature complete."

Now please stop repeating things parrot-fashon.
The game is far far from beta. Even perpetual beta would be a huge euphemism considering what has been announced, what's in the game and what's actually working.

I'm sick of people blindly throwing around arguments for the sake of it. Call it beta if you must, but beware of the fact it'll make you look like an irrational fanboy.

I think if anything all you've done is shown that we should be calling this an Alpha... MWO is not feature complete... trying to play it like it is is where you may be going wrong

when I found out they were nerfing DHS' to 1.4 did I also ask for a refund of cbills, yes I did, was I at all surprised that a. they turn out to be 2.0 in engine and that this isn't being clearly communicated to the player base and b. they said no to cbill refunds for ongoing game balancing issues

everything is going to be open to change, even when the game hits full release

having taken a step back myself and thought it through, the only suggestion I have for other people is that if you don't want to risk cbills on items getting nerfed then don't spend cbills and wait for the game to be more advanced from it's current state before spending cbills

[Rifter]

Jings, on 13 November 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

You, sir, are an imbecile.

You read my argument in a cursory manner, an argument which uses facts and language to get a point across to you - You then assume I don't know what a beta is and discard my argument based on that assumption.

You are incorrect in your assumption that this game fits into the classical definition of a beta, and you even prove yourself incorrect with your own provided definition. This game isn't even beta. It's Alpha. They call it beta because everyone calls it beta now - It's lost all meaning.

But if you're trying to claim that this game is feature complete, you're a lost hope. There is a laundry-list of features planned and not implemented, previously implemented and removed due to network issues as well as features imminently coming.

This game is not finished and your wiki link doesn't change that.

You are entitled to nothing.

Are you seriously trying to make the argument that this is a alpha when the developers(you know the pople actually making the game) are calling it a beta, and not even a early beta or closed beta but open beta?

[wuselfuzz]

VtTimber, on 13 November 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

This is a BETA... a BETA... do you know what BETA means? It means the game is in an incomplete state... it means there will be changes.... it means, DON'T spend REAL money on ANYTHING unless you don't care about it later because odds are, IT WILL CHANGE.

This goes for anyone else complaining about ANYTHING in this BETA... its an effing BETA... not a finished game. I swear to god, 85% of you people think you're playing a full-on released game that you bought from Steam... Open your eyes and act like you're not idiots...

This entire time PGI has been running a BETA therefore they haven't done any 'bait and switch'... you are testing their game for them....

And just to recap...
THIS IS A BETA!

Drunky, on 13 November 2012 - 05:43 AM, said:

Why isn't there a thumbs down... they opened a store, there is no reset, and anyone can join the game. This may be labeled a beta by the developers, but this is as live as the game can get. There is nothing else for them to turn on to make it more live. http://en.wikipedia..../Perpetual_beta

Rifter, on 13 November 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

Yeah this, its beta IS IRRELEVENT when the game is as live as its ever going to be.

Rifter, on 13 November 2012 - 05:58 AM, said:

They can call it beta all they want but the truth of the matter is as you said its as live as its ever going to be. And we shouldnt need to regrind every time they nerf somehting because they rushed the game out the door. Its not our fault they coudlnt see that the game was not ready to go live, hell most users told them as much and they launched it anyways.

/edit: Actually I think... PGI should just peel off that "beta" sticker and call this MWO V1.0, and announce new mechs and maps for V1.1, 1.2, 1.3, ... and Community Warfare for V2.0, just to get rid of this useless type of thread.

Edited by wuselfuzz, 13 November 2012 - 06:24 AM.

[potatoparrot]

Rifter, on 13 November 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

Are you seriously trying to make the argument that this is a alpha when the developers(you know the pople actually making the game) are calling it a beta, and not even a early beta or closed beta but open beta?

Holy mother of God, you really do think that this game is done, don't you?

How about the fact that they've had to remove knock-down due to network limitations, the speed cap implemented due to network issues, the massive changes occuring every other patch to the mechlab, the absence of a large amount of equipment, the mere freaking presence of placeholder assets and yet you're trying to say that "because they call it beta, that makes it feature-complete".

Do you know what feature-complete means?

[MadPanda]

SPARTAN 104, on 13 November 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

Oh yes it does...You never lost whole mechs? Whole Loadouts? Whole stacks of Weapons? hmmm. I want what your having sir.

Never. Are you sure you have and are not just confused? Like I explained earlier, everything is saved in your mechlab inventory. Sometimes (pretty often tbh) when you equip your mech and save, the saving process crashes and the items aren't equipped, but they have ALWAYS been in my inventory so I only had to re-equip and cross my fingers it saves this time. You either suffered from really rare bug or more likely got confused when the equipped items didn't save and you mistakenly thought you lost them.

[The Bad Charlie]

I'm all in for forums trying to keep as open minded as possible, but this thread should be closed. You would'nt like me to call you a ****** if you just said hello to my little daughter right? Ok, that may have been a little extreme, but what you did with this post could make some people think the people at PGI are scamming users or something like that, and that is terrible.

On top of it all, i think its all about you, complaining about how LRMs got nerfed... Cry me a river sister! and stick to your brawlers next time

And please, from now on, dont spend Cb!!! Be careful!!! Or your house could get confiscated!!! Cbills are no joke man... Oh wait...

[Xeven]

aspect, on 13 November 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

"Buying" things in a video game is not intended to be a solid investment...even games that have been out for years go through re-balancing. League of legends just did a big patch last night that re-arranged a huge amount of stuff. Complaining about being unhappy with your rented digital goods that you bought with cash because they were altered is absurd.

So we are left with the c-bill "purchases", which are actually just a direct output of you voluntarily playing a free game. Note: I said "game". You are mad because your time is valuable...may I suggest doing something other than playing video games?

Seriously, have you ever heard of personal responsibility? Decide what you want to do with your time and money and then take responsibility for your decision. This game has never been described as finished, and if you really thought that there would be no drastic balance changes in the first couple months of open beta then you should probably stick to released games that you can buy at gamestop.

I realize what your saying and do not disagree completely. Are you saying customers should never barter for better services or products? That is all I am doing here, that and hoping others might know PGI is currently not going to consider the customer when making huge changes to the product.

[potatoparrot]

Xeven, on 13 November 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

I realize what your saying and do not disagree completely. Are you saying customers should never barter for better services or products? That is all I am doing here, that and hoping others might know PGI is currently not going to consider the customer when making huge changes to the product.

You are not bartering for better service, you're accusing them of sales fraud. I highly doubt they will be even remotely inclined to consider adjusting their service with you throwing accusations of such a nature at them.

[aspect]

Jings, on 13 November 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

You are not bartering for better service, you're accusing them of sales fraud. I highly doubt they will be even remotely inclined to consider adjusting their service with you throwing accusations of such a nature at them.

^This.

[Xeven]

The Bad Charlie, on 13 November 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

I'm all in for forums trying to keep as open minded as possible, but this thread should be closed. You would'nt like me to call you a ****** if you just said hello to my little daughter right? Ok, that may have been a little extreme, but what you did with this post could make some people think the people at PGI are scamming users or something like that, and that is terrible.

On top of it all, i think its all about you, complaining about how LRMs got nerfed... Cry me a river sister! and stick to your brawlers next time

And please, from now on, dont spend Cb!!! Be careful!!! Or your house could get confiscated!!! Cbills are no joke man... Oh wait...

Using the term Bait and Switch might be a bit inflamatroy but I don't accuse them as such. It was just what came to my mind when I relized how much I had spent on upgrades to only have them nurfed to the point of not being usefull for my Mechs. I don't think this needs to be locked or deleted as it is informative to other customers and a disscussion point for PGI should they see any value in customer satisfaction.

[AtomicFrawg]

John Norad, on 13 November 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

Geez, do YOU know what beta means?

Here's the most common definition:"Beta (named after the second letter of the Greek alphabet) is the software development phase following alpha. It generally begins when the software is feature complete."

Now please stop repeating things parrot-fashon.
The game is far far from beta. Even perpetual beta would be a huge euphemism considering what has been announced, what's in the game and what's actually working.

I'm sick of people blindly throwing around arguments for the sake of it. Call it beta if you must, but beware of the fact it'll make you look like an irrational fanboy.

I will leave this here for you to read about software testing.
http://en.wikipedia....ng#Beta_testing

Xeven, on 13 November 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

No I am just opening a discussion. Would you not take a hamburger back to Mcdonalds if it was raw inside and ask them to cook it or refund the money you spent on it? Customers are entitled. Companies don't make money from them if they are unhappy about the product or services.

You spent real money on a Hamburger, You did not spend Real money on C-Bill. An undercooked hamburger has Nothing to do with you not liking your upgrades that you did not spend money on.

Rifter, on 13 November 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

Unlike some i dont have alot of time to game, usualy only play a few games a day. I would like to know that when i spend a week to earn cbills to make a upgrade that its going to function close to how it did when i bought it. Im all for small balance changes but what they did with LRM's was far from a small change.

Sooooooo, Yeah? It takes you all week to grind money for an upgrade? Hmmmmm I really find that very hard to believe. Border line impossible. 1.5 mill is 5-10 games at the most. So you must play .5-1 game per night?

Xeven, on 13 November 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

I do expect bugs, changes, buffs, nerfs, etc.... and I am only asking PGI to consider it's customers while they and we go through this tumultuous period of Open Beta and balancing . Make us (customers) "happy" when you can.


Absolutely money has been transfered I have bought Mechs with MC and decided I no longer wanted them and got CB in return. Also time is money. My virtual time has value just as does their upgrades.

Well first of all you crazy for spending real money on a Mech that you want to turn over for c-bills. You time has zero value. If you truly feel your time is worth money, maybe go do something else that will provide a return on your self investment?

You decided to play the game they did not force you.

Rifter, on 13 November 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

To alot of people(okay mostly adults i guess teenagers can play all day) is time is money.

I dont have time to sit around all day grinding.

Please see statement above about your time = money. But since you think your time = money, I will re-post the statement below. God forbid you waste a second to scroll back up.

You time has zero value. If you truly feel your time is worth money, maybe go do something else that will provide a return on your self investment?

[potatoparrot]

My honest suggestion to you is to rephrase the entirity of your point and approach from another angle.

I do not hold ill-will toward your desire for better customer relations, but you should never have compared their actions to sales fraud.

A new thread formed with a different angle would net you a better reception.

[Skyrek]

Xeven, on 13 November 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

Using the term Bait and Switch might be a bit inflamatroy but I don't accuse them as such. It was just what came to my mind when I relized how much I had spent on upgrades to only have them nurfed to the point of not being usefull for my Mechs. I don't think this needs to be locked or deleted as it is informative to other customers and a disscussion point for PGI should they see any value in customer satisfaction.

Obviously PGI places no value in customer satisfaction especially after they have made changes due to customer feedback. Give me a break.

You went into spending the CBills knowing full well that changes could be made. At least, I'd hope you would understand that things would most likely be changed as new features are added and adjusted?

Edited by Skyrek, 13 November 2012 - 06:37 AM.

[The Basilisk]

Rifter, on 13 November 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

To alot of people(okay mostly adults i guess teenagers can play all day) is time is money.

I dont have time to sit around all day grinding.

But you seem to have enough time in a day to do irrelevant ranting

(Man I enjoy watch ranting these "WAHHHHHAAAHAAA I bought a surprise package and got not what was on the label" cry babys)