293 replies to this topic

[ollo]

Yeah, let only elite players play with elite gear, so they get an even higher elite rating than those crap players that are only allowed crap mechs!

Honestly, dumb idea, in fact - if anything - it should be the other way round...

[James The Fox Dixon]

ForceUser, on 14 November 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

Well then we just get down to bad mech design and that's where I can help you.

Firstly FF is useless, only worth it on scout mechs. Try running your mech without FF. FF cost double what normal armor costs.
Secondly, are you running with, or without artemis? Try running without and see if it helps.
Thirdly, the speed increase form a 300 to 315 is negligible so look into fitting that if you are having weight issues.
Forth, put the ammo in the legs, no one aims for the legs.
Lastly, and this is a big one, know that the SRM A1 is an ambush mech. Using a mech outside it's role is like using a plastic spoon to butcher a deer. When a match starts, look for a mech as big or bigger than you on your team and stick to him like glue. You are designed to kill atlases and other slow moving mechs. either stripping off their armor or finishing off wounded mechs.Shoot the biggest enemy that engages you and your buddy.

FF is not useless when you have only so much free tonnage, but a lot of free crits and you want max armor. Logic fail.

Artemis doesn't stack with SSRMs and SRMS+Artemis cost the same amount for reloads as SSRMs. Logic fail.

The speed is what I wanted for my mech, so regardless of your opinion if it's negligible it doesn't play a factor. A speed increase is a speed increase. Logic fail.

Ammo has always been in the legs. It's not the location that matters, but the actual cost of it in conjunction with the match earnings. Logic fail.

So far on all four points you have logic fails. I'm reminded of Bill Clinton's campaign slogan from 92, "It's the economy stupid." This is what exactly wrong with the game's economy since it does not use the system from FM: Mercs as a basis that rewards a player for their choice of mech and tech in said mech.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 14 November 2012 - 04:10 AM.

[Tarman]

ForceUser, on 14 November 2012 - 03:53 AM, said:

I'm sorry you misunbderstood me. Most of the things you mentioned are what I call 'single player' content. It's content that can be done alone without ANY other players.

There is NO such content in MWO. To play the game you are forced to play with 15 other human beings around the world that you have no control over. I think the biggest teams you can make for quests in STO is 4 man teams?

It's more to the point of this discussion that the game was fun for entry-level dudes and casuals without affecting the gameplay of the dedicated fleets, which was also fun. While the focus of the gameplay is different here, the game still needs to be accessible and fun for the new guy as well as the veteran units, so that newguy may one day be the uber assassin of death, instead of going to be that assassin of death over in Planetside 2 where his game experience isn't going to be so harsh that he quits the game in disgust. Kissing off potential recruits because the game is evil to them is simply not a good idea in this delivery model.

[Poerisija]

Bad players have CHEAPER repair bills because they just get drilled through CT because they can't torso twist.

[ForceUser]

Actually I'd even go so far as to say do a 2xlrm15 and 4xstreak build. Just dont put in more than 2, maybe 3 tons of streak ammo. On the other hand LRMS and streaks are pretty meh currently.

I think a big problem is people come with the mentality that boating anything = win but it just doesn't *always* work that way. Missiles are in a funny place right now, expensive but used right can be devastating, IF you could rely on your team, witch you can't currently. Even LRMS used properly will beat the snot out of enemy mechs.

I think people looking at the A1 see oh sweet, 6 missiles slots, I'll just boat srms or lrms because they are high dps weapons and I'll kill everything. Just doesn't work that way

[Sarevos]

James The Fox Dixon, on 14 November 2012 - 04:08 AM, said:

FF is not useless when you have only so much free tonnage, but a lot of free crits and you want max armor. Logic fail.

Artemis doesn't stack with SSRMs and SRMS+Artemis cost the same amount for reloads as SSRMs. Logic fail.

The speed is what I wanted for my mech, so regardless of your opinion if it's negligible it doesn't play a factor. A speed increase is a speed increase. Logic fail.

Ammo has always been in the legs. It's not the location that matters, but the actual cost of it in conjunction with the match earnings. Logic fail.

So far on all four points you have logic fails.

no no hes a little right about some of that as much as i hate to say it lol. you should go for an artemis srm6er with a pair of streaks and go with an xl engine drop the ff (its hella expensive to repair) and max out on standard. you WILL get legged from time to time then thats pretty much the end of you use the 66%freearm as much as possible by adding 30% more ammo than you intend to use and you should be fine

Edited by Sarevos, 14 November 2012 - 04:13 AM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Sarevos, on 14 November 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

Ugh Force user is right about the build though you should probably also go XL because zombie-ing an A1 is pointless and srms without artemis require you to hug your opponent 90m or less to get full burst potential..

I have a standard because it's cheaper to repair than an XL. It had nothing to do with zombie-ing.

ForceUser, on 14 November 2012 - 04:11 AM, said:

Actually I'd even go so far as to say do a 2xlrm15 and 4xstreak build. Just dont put in more than 2, maybe 3 tons of streak ammo. On the other hand LRMS and streaks are pretty meh currently.

I think a big problem is people come with the mentality that boating anything = win but it just doesn't *always* work that way. Missiles are in a funny place right now, expensive but used right can be devastating, IF you could rely on your team, witch you can't currently. Even LRMS used properly will beat the snot out of enemy mechs.

I think people looking at the A1 see oh sweet, 6 missiles slots, I'll just boat srms or lrms because they are high dps weapons and I'll kill everything. Just doesn't work that way

I am using the mech as it was designed to do. Boat missiles. The economic system should not penalize a player for using the mech as it was intended.

[ForceUser]

ollo, on 14 November 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

Yeah, let only elite players play with elite gear, so they get an even higher elite rating than those crap players that are only allowed crap mechs!

Honestly, dumb idea, in fact - if anything - it should be the other way round...

So bad players should get rewarded and good players should be punished

But seriously the point is that the most expensive mech currently IS NOT THE BEST! The elite toys do NOT cost the most to repair. you can build cheap tournament level mechs.

Did you get that this time or do I need to repeat it a couple times more?

The biggest and best and most expensive are not the same things!

[Joseph Mallan]

Riffleman, on 13 November 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

Yes lets find more reasons to make people lose interest in continuing to play. That way when the game gets shut down, you can hug the screenshot of your name in the founders list whenever you get nostalgic.

Absolutely, If people are getting everything cheap they will lose interest in playing, cause they will have everything they wan...
...
...
Oh, were you pointing out that if its to expensive, people will rage quit? I thought you were pointing out that is things are to easy they will bored quit.

Sorry. You should be more clear on what you mean in a topic that can go either way.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 14 November 2012 - 04:20 AM.

[Sarevos]

James The Fox Dixon, on 14 November 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

I have a standard because it's cheaper to repair than an XL. It had nothing to do with zombie-ing.



I am using the mech as it was designed to do. Boat missiles. The economic system should not penalize a player for using the mech as it was intended.

depending on how much armor you lose that 45k could be less than the 15k standard repair+FF armor

[Vassago Rain]

ForceUser, on 14 November 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

Well then we just get down to bad mech design and that's where I can help you.

Firstly FF is useless, only worth it on scout mechs. Try running your mech without FF. FF cost double what normal armor costs.
Secondly, are you running with, or without artemis? Try running without and see if it helps.
Thirdly, the speed increase form a 300 to 315 is negligible so look into fitting that if you are having weight issues.
Forth, put the ammo in the legs, no one aims for the legs.
Lastly, and this is a big one, know that the SRM A1 is an ambush mech. Using a mech outside it's role is like using a plastic spoon to butcher a deer. When a match starts, look for a mech as big or bigger than you on your team and stick to him like glue. You are designed to kill atlases and other slow moving mechs. either stripping off their armor or finishing off wounded mechs.Shoot the biggest enemy that engages you and your buddy.

You've never seen cats rain down artemis SRMs on people from the skies, have you?

[James The Fox Dixon]

Sarevos, on 14 November 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:

depending on how much armor you lose that 45k could be less than the 15k standard repair+FF armor

True, but less armor means lower survivability in combat since you can't take the shots. In an A1 Cat with that build, that's about 3 tons of armor right there and leaves you woefully underprotected as a brawler.

However, this is getting off topic about the economy.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 14 November 2012 - 04:17 AM.

[Wrenchfarm]

Yes, I should be harshly penalized anytime I am dropped into a game where half my PUG team either disconnects or kamikazes the enemy. Losing a match is the key marker of personal skill in this game and the only way of measuring your merit as a person. Furthermore, only highly-skilled players who make sure to only roll in pre-made teams should have access to the fun toys. That is essential to the enjoyment and long term viability of the game. /sarcasm


10/10 troll thread. You got me. I am mad bro.

[ForceUser]

James The Fox Dixon, on 14 November 2012 - 04:14 AM, said:

I have a standard because it's cheaper to repair than an XL. It had nothing to do with zombie-ing.



I am using the mech as it was designed to do. Boat missiles. The economic system should not penalize a player for using the mech as it was intended.

There's nothign wrong with boating missiles, as I've pointed out various different builds for the mech that boats missiles, because that's all it can do. You just don't want to accept that your build is sub-par on a sub-par mech using (currently) sub-par weaponry.

Vassago Rain, on 14 November 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:

You've never seen cats rain down artemis SRMs on people from the skies, have you?

I have a pretty bad ping so JJ shenanigans make it that much more difficult for me to hit stuff. I can lead with srms while running around but I know my own limitations, be they natural or artificial

[James The Fox Dixon]

ForceUser, on 14 November 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

There's nothign wrong with boating missiles, as I've pointed out various different builds for the mech that boats missiles, because that's all it can do. You just don't want to accept that your build is sub-par on a sub-par mech using (currently) sub-par weaponry.

No, it's not that it's a subpar build or anything regarding the actual build. It all boils down to the ammo cost for the mech that is designed to boat missiles. 27k for a ton of SRM, 30k for a ton of LRM, 54k for a ton of SSRM, 54k for a ton of SRM+Artemis, and 60k for a ton of LRM+Artemis. Logic fail.

[Scratx]

Valore, on 14 November 2012 - 12:27 AM, said:

Hi Griz,

while your definition is accurate in one sense, its not the sense I'm talking about for my argument.

In this particular instance, what I mean by top tier is a mech loaded up with expensive equipment that costs a bomb to repair and rearm. It could still be a completely rubbish mech performance wise.

That's easy, then. Grab Awesome, 4x LRM20's, ES, FF, DHS, Artemis, XL engine, stuff yourself with LRM Art ammo.

Enjoy the bills. You might even get a few kills to go with them.

I am, of course, assuming it's possible to make this build, I didn't actually TRY. If it's not, dump Endo-Steel for crits and it should be.

[ForceUser]

Wrenchfarm, on 14 November 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

Yes, I should be harshly penalized anytime I am dropped into a game where half my PUG team either disconnects or kamikazes the enemy. Losing a match is the key marker of personal skill in this game and the only way of measuring your merit as a person. Furthermore, only highly-skilled players who make sure to only roll in pre-made teams should have access to the fun toys. That is essential to the enjoyment and long term viability of the game. /sarcasm


10/10 troll thread. You got me. I am mad bro.

Hehe looks like I will have to repeat myself

The most fun and best toys are not the most expensive. The best builds do not require the most expensive chassis, weapons or all the upgrades. The best mechs with he most fun toys do not cost the most to run.

James The Fox Dixon, on 14 November 2012 - 04:21 AM, said:

No, it's not that it's a subpar build or anything regarding the actual build. It all boils down to the ammo cost for the mech that is designed to boat missiles. 27k for a ton of SRM, 30k for a ton of LRM, 54k for a ton of SSRM, 54k for a ton of SRM+Artemis, and 60k for a ton of LRM+Artemis. Logic fail.

75% of your ammo gets refilled for free after every match

Scratx, on 14 November 2012 - 04:21 AM, said:

That's easy, then. Grab Awesome, 4x LRM20's, ES, FF, DHS, Artemis, XL engine, stuff yourself with LRM Art ammo.

Enjoy the bills. You might even get a few kills to go with them.

I am, of course, assuming it's possible to make this build, I didn't actually TRY. If it's not, dump Endo-Steel for crits and it should be.

Sounds fun but I'm worried about weight just as much as crit on that build. LRM20s weigh a stupid amount. Even DDC atlases only boat 2 lrm20s and an lrm15 at most (Although not sure now with the extra crit artemis takes up, might even be less now)

Heck, this actually brings me to another point regarding the economy, why should you NOT be punished economically for running a bad build? Or alternatively, why should you be rewarded economically for running a bad build?

[Vassago Rain]

Wrenchfarm, on 14 November 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

Yes, I should be harshly penalized anytime I am dropped into a game where half my PUG team either disconnects or kamikazes the enemy. Losing a match is the key marker of personal skill in this game and the only way of measuring your merit as a person. Furthermore, only highly-skilled players who make sure to only roll in pre-made teams should have access to the fun toys. That is essential to the enjoyment and long term viability of the game. /sarcasm


10/10 troll thread. You got me. I am mad bro.

If we're not bleeding, we're not working hard enough in this F2P game.

[James The Fox Dixon]

ForceUser, on 14 November 2012 - 04:28 AM, said:

75% of your ammo gets refilled for free after every match

It still is the biggest expense on my build because of the ammo cost. The FF doesn't even come close in cost to a single ton of SSRM ammo. Remember this is about economics and the 75% free rearm doesn't help low ammo carrying builds as much as it does for large ammo builds. I have 4 tons of ammo and that is it. At 75% rearm it still costs me over 54k to rearm a single ton of ammo.

[FunkyFritter]

Once matchmaking is properly implemented almost everyone will have a winrate close to 50%. At that point I see 2 outcomes with the current economic model:

1 - Matchmaking ignores component costs when paring people up:
Let's assume for a moment that the matchmaker creates games based on tonnage and skill level, but doesn't distinguish between a stock jenner and a high-upkeep custom. Since everyone's winning roughly half of the time nobody can afford to run their expensive stuff every game, so within any given game some players will have a stat disadvantage. This increases variance, which leads to more 1-sided stomps and less close games.

2 - Matchmaking groups players based on mech cost in addition to skill:
This solves the problem of 1-sided games, but also removes any sense of progression. What's the point of adding endosteal to your mech if everyone you're matched up with gets a similar power boost the moment you do? What's worse, this solution has less of an impact on reducing stomps than you might think because everyone has to get into a game at some point. That double lance of optimized atlases is going to get put up against the next best team in the queue, which given the upkeep of those setups probably won't be anywhere near as potent.


Overall, I'm not seeing any advantage of prohibitive upkeep costs. In the short term newer players are the ones consistently doing poorly and in the long term it leads to worse games for everyone. Only using your big guns occasionally makes sense when matches vary in difficulty, but multiplayer matchmaking is designed to reduce that variance.