293 replies to this topic

[Sarevos]

ForceUser, on 14 November 2012 - 03:35 AM, said:

What does me being a founder have to do with the A1 being expensive as all get out to repair when you do badly in a match?

do you even read what you type? or what someone else does for that matter?

[Vassago Rain]

ForceUser, on 14 November 2012 - 03:35 AM, said:

What does me being a founder have to do with the A1 being expensive as all get out to repair when you do badly in a match?

We both make so much money, we can somewhat endure a 200k repair bill - that we don't end up paying, anyway.

[shabowie]

I'm cool with a curve as steep as they can make it without being bad for business.

A person asked earlier why we care what bad players can do. Skill stratification and gear availability due to that performance is important for players who need that sense of achievement in the game for it to feel worth their time.

[ForceUser]

Sarevos, on 14 November 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

thats only 2 i dont see the other 3

wait what? You'll need to start making a bit more sense mate

If you mean upgrades, I ran the A1 with Endo, DHS, (not FF though so theres that), Artemis and and XL. Then fill her up with 6 tons of super expensive ammo.

What upgrades except FF am I missing?

Vassago Rain, on 14 November 2012 - 03:36 AM, said:

We both make so much money, we can somewhat endure a 200k repair bill - that we don't end up paying, anyway.

I SOLD that pos A1 when I figured out it was costing me an arm and a leg to run. It's bad news, don't run it. Run one of the many other better builds.

[Chrithu]

I am a free player and I do agree with the OP.

I can tell you why: The current reward structure rewards you for playing regardless of what you do. Hence we see all those Suiciders, unrepaired mech users and Trial Mech run to death farmers.

The rewards in my view are weighted very poorly. Doing useful things towards your team winning should be valued higher than the base rewards for winning/losing and also should be paid out independently from the outcome of the match for your team.

This means that the "reward" for losing should be drastically lowered or removed at all. The reward for winning must be lowered. The rewards for kills, kill assists, damage and spots should be paid out even if you lose and should be buffed a lot. Reward for capping and assisting caps should be buffed so they get closer to the possible salvage from killing the hole opposing team by just headshots. A reward for initiating the cap should be paid out (even when losing).

I am well aware that the outcome of such a system will be that players that constantly perform bad don't earn or even lose money and that new players in trials might have an even harder time getting the CBills to buy their first owned mech. The latter should be fought by giving a new player 5 mil CBills as a start that only may be used to buy a light class mech as your first mech, unless you have played at least a certain amount of matches in trials.

The former is intended because the way it is now there still is no real motivation to perform good or be useful for your team because you will make a profit no matter what you do.

Edit: Forgot to say, that in my view the system I proposed must not be implemented before the matchmaker properly incorporates player skill when matching the teams.

Edited by Jason Parker, 14 November 2012 - 03:46 AM.

[Sarevos]

ForceUser, on 14 November 2012 - 03:35 AM, said:

What does me being a founder have to do with the A1 being expensive as all get out to repair when you do badly in a match?

The cat A1 still loses is my point with only 2 upgrades along with any mech with artemis weaponry larger than a jenner (and sometimes them too) costs money to run with a WIN that heavily damages you not even kills you meaning premium time is the only thing that makes them truely Viable. if MM works properly the ideal is that you have 50/50 W/L (thats absolute perfect MM and thus not really possible) but anyone with those kind of numbers will have stagnant growth without premium. Making that equipment seem only viable for paid players

[James The Fox Dixon]

ForceUser, on 14 November 2012 - 03:39 AM, said:

I SOLD that pos A1 when I figured out it was costing me an arm and a leg to run. It's bad news, don't run it. Run one of the many other better builds.

Now imagine a free player that only has that mech. They can't exactly hop into it to make cash to get a different mech. No, they have to go back to the trials to grind out more money to get a mech that is economically viable, but they do not have fun with/enjoy playing the game with. In the end, PGI has lost a customer and they've lost potential income. In short, thanks for showing all of us the obvious that the game punches free players in the face for playing the game how they want to play it.

[Sarevos]

ForceUser, on 14 November 2012 - 03:39 AM, said:

wait what? You'll need to start making a bit more sense mate

Sarevos, on 14 November 2012 - 03:33 AM, said:

with 50% additional cbills? how can you provide a proper study? A cat a1 artemis xl srms costs money to run in a win if you take a shot to the ammo bins lol repairs exceed the max amount you can get free around 150k unless you leg every opponent for maximum salvage bonus

[Tarman]

ForceUser, on 14 November 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

Having played STO the comparison is a bit flawed. There are no single player material in MWO. That's 90% of what 'farting around in space' consists of in STO.

>_______>

IDK what game you were playing but there was plenty of stuff to do ingame without signing on with anyone. As a solo I pulled pug fleet events, did lots of questing, did user-made missions, hit up special events, chased down accolades, worked on my crew roster... There's lots of stuff for the guy who just wants to play a game without joining a group. Single player experience in a multiplayer-based game is completely doable, and desirable for boosting the playerbase. If the game had been so sucky that I hadn't even been playing, that guarantees I wouldn't have been there long enough to FIND a group I liked.

[Vassago Rain]

ForceUser, on 14 November 2012 - 03:39 AM, said:

wait what? You'll need to start making a bit more sense mate

If you mean upgrades, I ran the A1 with Endo, DHS, (not FF though so theres that), Artemis and and XL. Then fill her up with 6 tons of super expensive ammo.

What upgrades except FF am I missing?


I SOLD that pos A1 when I figured out it was costing me an arm and a leg to run. It's bad news, don't run it. Run one of the many other better builds.

Do you have no economic sense? Selling mechs? Really?

[James The Fox Dixon]

Vassago Rain, on 14 November 2012 - 03:45 AM, said:

Do you have no economic sense? Selling mechs? Really?

Especially since selling a mech is about one third of what you've actually paid for it. Another reason why the economy fails for a free player since selling a mech is a sub-optimal choice and only reinforces playing in trial mechs.

[Sarevos]

Im going to point out some things:

I do not mind paying for mech bays
I do not mind paying for mechs
I do not mind paying for bobbles
I do not mind paying for premium time
I DO mind new players not having access to the games basic features
I being beyond the point of new player with 7 mechs in the stables will not nor wish to benefit from it but i want the game to be accessible to people who pick up the game to try.

[ForceUser]

James The Fox Dixon, on 14 November 2012 - 03:44 AM, said:

Now imagine a free player that only has that mech. They can't exactly hop into it to make cash to get a different mech. No, they have to go back to the trials to grind out more money to get a mech that is economically viable, but they do not have fun with/enjoy playing the game with. In the end, PGI has lost a customer and they've lost potential income. In short, thanks for showing all of us the obvious that the game punches free players in the face for playing the game how they want to play it.

Actually here's the thing, you don't buy an A1 with all the upgrades already there. You gradually buy the upgrades as you play the mech. In that case you will gradually see your income go down and repairs go up each match as you add upgrades. That's what I noticed at least. The A1 makes a good LRM/SMR hybrid and without artemis and an XL it's a decent enough mech that can make you money if you play it right, just like every single other mech out there.

I was running it with most upgrades to see how viable it was for tournaments and it can be effing scary in that situation, where you don't worry about repair/rearm costs because the win is more important that your bank balance. The gausscat though does it better, even in a brawl.

End of the day that's ONE mech. How many players are going to go straight for that mech first thing and not go fir a light first and making more money with that before going on to the bigger mechs? The C1 btw is probably one of the most versatile and amazing mechs currently in the game and is even to a noob a better buy with it's potential for more weapon configs.

[James The Fox Dixon]

ForceUser, on 14 November 2012 - 03:50 AM, said:

Actually here's the thing, you don't buy an A1 with all the upgrades already there. You gradually buy the upgrades as you play the mech. In that case you will gradually see your income go down and repairs go up each match as you add upgrades. That's what I noticed at least. The A1 makes a good LRM/SMR hybrid and without artemis and an XL it's a decent enough mech that can make you money if you play it right, just like every single other mech out there.

I was running it with most upgrades to see how viable it was for tournaments and it can be effing scary in that situation, where you don't worry about repair/rearm costs because the win is more important that your bank balance. The gausscat though does it better, even in a brawl.

End of the day that's ONE mech. How many players are going to go straight for that mech first thing and not go fir a light first and making more money with that before going on to the bigger mechs? The C1 btw is probably one of the most versatile and amazing mechs currently in the game and is even to a noob a better buy with it's potential for more weapon configs.

I don't have a lot of upgrades on my A1. I have ES, FF, DHS, and a standard engine. My ammo cost for 4 tons (that's all I can carry with a 315 standard) is MORE than the repair itself. If the economic system actually rewarded based upon what you've brought etc... like I posted from FM: Mercenaries (Revised) then we wouldn't be having this conversation. It doesn't have that system so we are having this discussion because the current economic system punches free players in the face for playing a game and turning something fun into a brutalizing experience.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 14 November 2012 - 03:54 AM.

[Sarevos]

ForceUser, on 14 November 2012 - 03:50 AM, said:

Actually here's the thing, you don't buy an A1 with all the upgrades already there. You gradually buy the upgrades as you play the mech. In that case you will gradually see your income go down and repairs go up each match as you add upgrades. That's what I noticed at least. The A1 makes a good LRM/SMR hybrid and without artemis and an XL it's a decent enough mech that can make you money if you play it right, just like every single other mech out there.

I was running it with most upgrades to see how viable it was for tournaments and it can be effing scary in that situation, where you don't worry about repair/rearm costs because the win is more important that your bank balance. The gausscat though does it better, even in a brawl.

End of the day that's ONE mech. How many players are going to go straight for that mech first thing and not go fir a light first and making more money with that before going on to the bigger mechs? The C1 btw is probably one of the most versatile and amazing mechs currently in the game and is even to a noob a better buy with it's potential for more weapon configs.

you dont get the point the point is they HAVE to go for that light first lest they risk fury induced homicide. They should not be FORCED to play something they dont want to in order to have fun

[ForceUser]

Tarman, on 14 November 2012 - 03:45 AM, said:

>_______>

IDK what game you were playing but there was plenty of stuff to do ingame without signing on with anyone. As a solo I pulled pug fleet events, did lots of questing, did user-made missions, hit up special events, chased down accolades, worked on my crew roster... There's lots of stuff for the guy who just wants to play a game without joining a group. Single player experience in a multiplayer-based game is completely doable, and desirable for boosting the playerbase. If the game had been so sucky that I hadn't even been playing, that guarantees I wouldn't have been there long enough to FIND a group I liked.

I'm sorry you misunbderstood me. Most of the things you mentioned are what I call 'single player' content. It's content that can be done alone without ANY other players.

There is NO such content in MWO. To play the game you are forced to play with 15 other human beings around the world that you have no control over. I think the biggest teams you can make for quests in STO is 4 man teams?

[Sarevos]

Sarevos, on 14 November 2012 - 03:53 AM, said:

you dont get the point the point is they HAVE to go for that light first lest they risk fury induced homicide. They should not be FORCED to play something they dont want to in order to have fun

that is generally what accessibility means a smooth gentle learning curve and not a cliff face of frustration curve

Edited by Sarevos, 14 November 2012 - 03:55 AM.

[Adeptus Odren]

o0Marduk0o, on 14 November 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

No, I feel that your refund is not reasonable. This here is no question about founders or non-founders. You simply fail to understand the basics of ingame economy. You don't know how to make money while having a decent mech. You want everything for free with no effort because you want to pilot any mech with any loadout all the time.

You create yourself a problem which doesn't exist if you play the way it is meant to play.

A lot of people just want to play with the mechs they have without having to grind just for C-Bills. People like me, for instance, who can't play all the time because of work and family. PGI has to take us into account because we did shell out for the game and fully intend to continue shelling out as long as we're happy with the game.

Again...this is supposed to be a game and it shouldn't be one that should be taken so seriously that it drives away the casual players with dough to spend.

[ForceUser]

James The Fox Dixon, on 14 November 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:

I don't have a lot of upgrades on my A1. I have ES, FF, DHS, and a standard engine. My ammo cost for 4 tons (that's all I can carry with a 315 standard) is MORE than the repair itself.

Well then we just get down to bad mech design and that's where I can help you.

Firstly FF is useless, only worth it on scout mechs. Try running your mech without FF. FF cost double what normal armor costs.
Secondly, are you running with, or without artemis? Try running without and see if it helps.
Thirdly, the speed increase form a 300 to 315 is negligible so look into fitting that if you are having weight issues.
Forth, put the ammo in the legs, no one aims for the legs.
Lastly, and this is a big one, know that the SRM A1 is an ambush mech. Using a mech outside it's role is like using a plastic spoon to butcher a deer. When a match starts, look for a mech as big or bigger than you on your team and stick to him like glue. You are designed to kill atlases and other slow moving mechs. either stripping off their armor or finishing off wounded mechs.Shoot the biggest enemy that engages you and your buddy.

[Sarevos]

ForceUser, on 14 November 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

Well then we just get down to bad mech design and that's where I can help you.

Firstly FF is useless, only worth it on scout mechs. Try running your mech without FF. FF cost double what normal armor costs.
Secondly, are you running with, or without artemis? Try running without and see if it helps.
Thirdly, the speed increase form a 300 to 315 is negligible so look into fitting that if you are having weight issues.
Forth, put the ammo in the legs, no one aims for the legs.
Lastly, and this is a big one, know that the SRM A1 is an ambush mech. Using a mech outside it's role is like using a plastic spoon to butcher a deer. When a match starts, look for a mech as big or bigger than you on your team and stick to him like glue. You are designed to kill atlases and other slow moving mechs. either stripping off their armor or finishing off wounded mechs.Shoot the biggest enemy that engages you and your buddy.

Ugh Force user is right about the build though you should probably also go XL because zombie-ing an A1 is pointless and srms without artemis require you to hug your opponent 90m or less to get full burst potential..