293 replies to this topic

[Lerzpftz]

Valore, on 13 November 2012 - 11:16 PM, said:

Repair costs for mechs using high tech gear, such as DHS, XL engines, Artemis, Ferro/Endo, are fairly high. Same goes for mechs running weapons which chew through large amounts of expensive ammo, i.e. Streaks and Artemis missiles
...
Feedback from players looking to play without ever buying premium is most welcome. Is this too harsh?

Repair bills are already to harsh for non-premium players fielding heavy mechs or above. As a non-premium player you can estimate an average of 120k with a 1:1 win / loss ratio. With this and normal repair costs for a heavy in the range of 40-80k it already takes ugly long to see any progress to another mech. If you take this to an assault chassis with at least some ammo dependency, it makes them almost unaffordable for a non-premium player.

That said, a 1:1 win/loss and 1:1 k/d ratio and a non premium player is, what all economy balancing should take as a starting point. There will not be much in terms of "good player" or "bad player", when they implemented their pilot- / elo rating and you are matched against equally good pilots most of the time. I can already hear the "better players" screaming ... when their fantastic piloting ratios and payouts are sinking. That is including me by the way, so this is not to be misunderstood as jealousy. ;-)

[Lerzpftz]

Grizley, on 14 November 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

Right now a fantastic example of a top tier mech is the Jenner.

• The Jenner mounts firepower that a mech of a higher weight class wouldn't be ashamed of. Look at a Hunchback SP build with 4ML and 2 SRM6. They fire 4 extra SRMs on a full volley than a Jenner and the Jenner moves three times as fast

While the jenner is a very good mech currently, this doesn't mean you have to make up numbers. IF you build a jenner fielding 2 SRM4 and 4 med lasers, it can shoot once and shutdown or is running around at something like 110-120km/h and reduced armor.

And if you are assuming an upgraded jenner, compare it to an upgraded hunchback. That is running around at 80km/h with a standard engine and doesn't overheat firing those 4 lasers and 12 srms.

Edited by Lerzpftz, 14 November 2012 - 12:46 AM.

[Valore]

Lerzpftz, on 14 November 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

Repair bills are already to harsh for non-premium players fielding heavy mechs or above. As a non-premium player you can estimate an average of 120k with a 1:1 win / loss ratio. With this and normal repair costs for a heavy in the range of 40-80k it already takes ugly long to see any progress to another mech. If you take this to an assault chassis with at least some ammo dependency, it makes them almost unaffordable for a non-premium player.

That said, a 1:1 win/loss and 1:1 k/d ratio and a non premium player is, what all economy balancing should take as a starting point. There will not be much in terms of "good player" or "bad player", when they implemented their pilot- / elo rating and you are matched against equally good pilots most of the time. I can already hear the "better players" screaming ... when their fantastic piloting ratios and payouts are sinking. That is including me by the way, so this is not to be misunderstood as jealousy. ;-)

That's actually a very interesting point you bring up I hadn't considered.

As you said, once ELO/Skill matching come in, your eventual w/l should normalise to 1/1. If the system works right anyway >_>


To use your example as a starting point, maybe then the balance should be:

Non-premium players in a viable midrange mech costing about 80K to repair, should make slight progress if they maintain a 1/1 win loss.

[Noth]

Valore, on 14 November 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

That's actually a very interesting point you bring up I hadn't considered.

As you said, once ELO/Skill matching come in, your eventual w/l should normalise to 1/1. If the system works right anyway >_>


To use your example as a starting point, maybe then the balance should be:

Non-premium players in a viable midrange mech costing about 80K to repair, should make slight progress if they maintain a 1/1 win loss.

They should make slight progress using even the highest end stuff.

[Elizander]

I don't think that there is a top tier mech. It all depends on weapon balance and if your favorite mech has the hardpoints for the top weapons at the time or not. Pretty much anything with DHS and Endo Steel is good and thankfully those do not crap all over your earnings. XL is a bigger choice and still it doesn't do that much. Ferro armor is next to worthless in most cases but the increase in repair costs are a problem because many players think they get 12% MORE armor out of it so they upgrade not knowing how bad it is.

The biggest culprits so far are ammunition reloads especially with Artemis followed by Ferro armor for larger mechs. Out of all the upgrades and weapons, these two are the ones that can really drive you negative. Of course there is the free 75% rearm but some people don't like it for some reason. This is why I don't mind running ammo mechs because I don't reload at all and Ferro armor is only good on light mechs which have low armor repair costs to begin with. I personally have no problem with how it is right now, but people who don't know better start putting XL/Ferro/10 tons LRM Artemis ammo on their huge mechs and there you go.

Regarding assault/heavy mech repairs for players:

Assault and heavy mechs that have all weapons in the torso areas can benefit from reduced repairs. You can repair specific parts of your mech only though the CT is usually the bulk of it. Whenever I blow on my Atlas, I only repair the torso area. CT usually runs me around 17k-20k while side torso damage is more moderate. Probably 5-10k at most. This leaves my arms and legs a little banged up but you don't need them as much anyway.

Edited by Elizander, 14 November 2012 - 12:56 AM.

[Valore]

Noth, on 14 November 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

They should make slight progress using even the highest end stuff.

So your proposal would be, in a 1/1 win loss ratio without premium, using a top tier mech with up to 200k repair/rearm bill, they should still make a slight profit overall, say 25k/game?

[Mordekai]

I didnt even read the OP. Just the headline was enough to say "BULL****"

[Valore]

Mordekai, on 14 November 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

I didnt even read the OP. Just the headline was enough to say "BULL****"

At least grace us with the effort of stating why

[Noth]

Valore, on 14 November 2012 - 12:52 AM, said:

So your proposal would be, in a 1/1 win loss ratio without premium, using a top tier mech with up to 200k repair/rearm bill, they should still make a slight profit overall, say 25k/game?

Yes. I'm against flat out stopping progression or removing progress already made.

[Duckwalk]

Then why bother paying for a premium account once you have the mechs you use maxed out and 50million plus in savings....

That takes like all of 2 weeks.

[Rejarial Galatan]

and i am against the idea of top tier mechs being the heaviest out there. they are not. they are what ever YOU can use the best. for me, for now, that is the atlas, in truth? the Timber Wolf is MY top tier mech.

[Valore]

Noth, on 14 November 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

Yes. I'm against flat out stopping progression or removing progress already made.

Should they still be able to progress then if their mech is completely smashed to bits and they take the full 200k repair each time? Because if that's the case, Founders would have cbills coming out their ears

Rejarial Galatan, on 14 November 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

and i am against the idea of top tier mechs being the heaviest out there. they are not. they are what ever YOU can use the best. for me, for now, that is the atlas, in truth? the Timber Wolf is MY top tier mech.

I don't disagree with you, but it kinda doesn't make sense either if a Jenner and an Atlas take the same amount to repair =/. How would you propose we resolve that issue? Just ignore it?

[Noth]

Valore, on 14 November 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

Should they still be able to progress then if their mech is completely smashed to bits and they take the full 200k repair each time? Because if that's the case, Founders would have cbills coming out their ears

Yes. That is why more money sinks need added. Actually more module need added as they are a rather huge money sink. Also most f2p games money becomes rather meaningless.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Valore, on 14 November 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

Should they still be able to progress then if their mech is completely smashed to bits and they take the full 200k repair each time? Because if that's the case, Founders would have cbills coming out their ears



I don't disagree with you, but it kinda doesn't make sense either if a Jenner and an Atlas take the same amount to repair =/. How would you propose we resolve that issue? Just ignore it?

ignore it? not at all, but, to make say my atlas take a kings ransom to repair, while, you only need to pay the equivalent of a KIA to repair the jenner? that isnt helping either, I say, make repairs cost 2% the value of the weapon, engine, w/e its broken/destroyed. THAT would make it balanced if my sleep addled math is right.

[Duckwalk]

I personally would like to see a almost mandatory monthly fee attached to the game or other significant means of income generation. Personally, I don't think bobble heads or skins or conversion of mech exp to GXP is going to cut it.

The result of most Free to Play systems is the game eventually becomes either Pay to Win or over encumbered by hidden traps which pressure you into spending money.

There is no reason this game has to be $15 a month for premium either.

[Rejarial Galatan]

I think, if they said: okay, this whole free to play thing isnt working like we wanted, and we still want to avoid making it pay to win, but need money to keep going, we need you to play a subscription fee to play. I would be fine with paying <going back to my days as a player of FFXI> 12.99 a month for a single pilot, and 1 buck more per month per each additional pilot I want to use, would be 100% okay with me!

but but but, never, ever, ever underestimate the power fluff has over people!

[Vassago Rain]

Duckwalk, on 14 November 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

I personally would like to see a almost mandatory monthly fee attached to the game or other significant means of income generation. Personally, I don't think bobble heads or skins or conversion of mech exp to GXP is going to cut it.

The result of most Free to Play systems is the game eventually becomes either Pay to Win or over encumbered by hidden traps which pressure you into spending money.

There is no reason this game has to be $15 a month for premium either.

Wouldn't it cost a lot more than 15 bucks a month with the smaller conversion rates to disney dollars?

[Kaijin]

Joat, on 13 November 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

Trial mechs......
the FREE to run mechs that ern you a bit.

personaly I feel if your TEAM fails NO ONE should get a dime....just a repair bill and 25% of the exp you would have gotten if your team won..Then maby the people that play in pugs (such as myself mostly) may just have a reason to give a crap about the mech warriors on his/her team.That being said the matchmakers needs to be reworked so teams cant pop pugs to pad stats and wallets.....

Mechwarriors are paid to fight. If they win, bonuses are probable. If only the victors got paid, the five Houses would have fallen to an InnerSphere-wide mechwarrior revolution before the 1st Succession War got off the ground. That we have to pay anything for repair and rearm should be subject to debate. You know anyone in the military who's got to pay for their own ammunition or foot the bill for battle-damaged equipment?

[Duckwalk]

And sorry but your big bad Atlas needs to be very expensive to repair. This ties directly lore of the game, the differences between major houses and mercenary units.

If the devs intend for this game in its final form to encapsulate interstellar war between multiple major houses (and eventually the clans) spread over an entire galaxy, repair and rearm cost of your Assault mech is a large part of it.

If they aspire to a simple arena style brawler and nothing else then by all means lets make all the mechs equally costly to repair.

[Duckwalk]

Vassago Rain, on 14 November 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

Wouldn't it cost a lot more than 15 bucks a month with the smaller conversion rates to disney dollars?

Not sure what your talking about. Converting Dollars to Mech Credits comes out to roughly $12 a month for premium. I was just pointing out that they could easily lower premium cost down to $5 a month and try to make their money that way.

I'm just saying I would rather the Devs balance the game around paying members than free players.