3696 replies to this topic

[Grraarrgghh]

Amechwarrior, on 14 November 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

Like everyone else here, No. It sounds like a bad idea. But I'm going to play a little devils advocate and show how it can be done if it must in stages of "less forums in flames" to most.


1. Allow 3rd person within a single player tutorial mission

Let the 3rd person cam and the tutorial work together to get a new pilot used to moving while torso twisting. But at the end of the "Movement" mission, before they go on to firing they must navigate a simple maze by only 1st person while keeping their torsos aligned to a dummy target.

Let them practice all they want with 3rd/1st person mazes before the "gate" to the next tutorial level. But the end of the movement tutorial must have them moving in 1st person because allowing them to rely on 3rd person sets them up for failure in the real game that's 1st only. Further tutorial segments would not allow 3rd person.


2. New Pilots Matchmaker

Lets say you can't make a single player tutorial at all and are dead set on 3rd person view. Well then make a new queue for new accounts that runs by these rules:

• Trial 'Mechs only
  
• No stats tracked
  
• Money still earned at trial rates
  
• 1st or 3rd person camera available at any time.

Optional:

• New accounts with -50 games played only

These rules would make sure only new players fight other new players with the same loadouts and camera options. This does not touch the real game or anything where stats are tracked. However, this still lets new players gather cash to help them though the trial grind. Downsides are that they might be reliant on 3rd person view and when they get to the real game it will hit them like a brick and they won't like it. This is why method 1 is better then this method.




3. Separate queuing for 1st and 3rd person.

This is what Russ eluded to in the podcast and is frankly the worst option you could possibly do from all standpoints other then "lets get some new blood who will leave in 2 months without spending a dime once the next CoD is out."

This would segment the already small userbase, potentially disrupt CW, split friends/groups/clans who disagree on which queues to play on and everything else all the previous posters have listed in this thread. It's really the worst possible choice.

Keep 3rd person to training mode/queues only.

Don't let it touch the real game. It would be best if you never enabled it at all, but if you must then you have my feedback.

http://mwomercs.com/...62#entry1421362

If you guys missed this, you missed the best post in the thread.

3rd person has no place in the proper game.

Edited by Grraarrgghh, 15 November 2012 - 10:27 AM.

[Konflict]

If its like WoT it will be like this. First Person view for those of us who want it. Scoll view out for 3rd person view. Right Click on target & auto fire (perhaps like auto target the CT). First Person shooting for more accurate fire. Movement will use arrows keys to turn the whole Mech at one time, no torso twist.

[Clan Warrior]

SgtMaster, on 15 November 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

They can easily separate the servers 1sr person/ 3rd person views just like they are changing the premade format to premade vs premade, no longer mixed in with PUG's...

The Devs are moving in the right directions, hiccups are expected and will be addressed

the more people that play the game, the better, translate into more revenue for more mechs, more game modes, more maps, etc... etc... etc...

More More More, we want more

all in good time

Yeah and they can add 3rd person servers, the wow crowd server, star trek server, they can add lazy peoples server (you basically get everything for free almost no playing involved), hello kitty, and even add sever that would cater to blind people like sound heightened level of play.

I'm sure it will not split our player base community even more, yeah good thinking.

Edited by Clan Warrior, 15 November 2012 - 10:28 AM.

[Tuku]

I agree....A single map with no AI and a voiceover that walks them through the map and says.

Turn your torso left....now right....now up .....now down.....All of those movements where independent of your feet. Turn your torso Left with your mouse use "W" to throttle up to full speed....Note that you are moving in a different direction to where you are facing.

Then you go through firing weapons....weapon groups....The dot and the crosshair....arms independant of torso and feet.....shooting targets....shooting long range targets.....

I would love a totorial....I know this is not easy as I made it seem but getting it going would be a great thing!

[Keifomofutu]

Lol the youtube video was really phoning it in.

[Antasius]

Dimento Graven, on 15 November 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

No, it's just ancilliary data. It can add to your +/- factor as it can help you understand how many people may or may not have understood the poll...

Thumbs up on the use of the word ancillary. But whether the poll is useful is up to PGI and it's internal numbers to decide.

AND so I'm not just adding ancillary data... NO arcade 3rd person 'god-mode' view please, and YES to destructible drones and multi-view cameras.

[Pinosaur]

Please do not implement any 3rd person view for actual battles.

There will be people who don't like the feel of the game no matter what you do, don't drive away your core fanbase like this.

(poll was at 91.46% against 3pv just now)

[Boswelli]

Dimento Graven, on 15 November 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

Think of it this way... You put veterans in a 3rd person view against new players and what do you think is going to happen to the new players?

I'm pretty sure it will make the past ROFLSTOMPS look like sessions of 'paddy cake' in comparison...

That won't happen because it's not a all or nothing scenario. You use 3rd person view for moving/viewing around, and then zoom with mouse wheel into 1st person to shoot and aim. That works great in WoT, so why not use this control system here?

Really don't understand all these hates against 3rd pv. For all of you who like to use only 1st pv nothing would change, if PGI implements a good sight system.

Edited by Boswelli, 15 November 2012 - 10:34 AM.

[Hysteria]

Let me put it this way: I gave my money for the founder's program so I could play a first person mech simulation like things are now. If PGI is going to implement 3rd person cameras specifically to help new players with the learning curve, it should not effect normal game play. I think it should only be allowed on a specific training gametype map where only stock variants can be used.

Let me further elaborate. My idea is that all stock variants of all mechs would be available in this training game mode where 3rd person can be used and no cbills or xp are rewarded for playing. This accomplishes a few goals that benefits the players, and PGI. New players will be able to utilize 3rd person to more easily grasp the game. The normal game including custom mech loadouts would remain completely unchanged and does not involve 3rd person. Only allowing stock variants and rewarding no cbills would hopefully give incentive for players to move on to the normal gametypes and playerbase. Lastly, this gametype would allow new and experienced players alike to see the many different options of mechs they have at their disposal before deciding on a class or specific variant to purchase with their hard earned cbills.

If this idea hasn't already been brought up I hope this gets some attention because I feel like it makes a lot of sense and could basically solve everyone's problems without making any more.

[Lightfoot]

Konflict, on 15 November 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

If its like WoT it will be like this. First Person view for those of us who want it. Scoll view out for 3rd person view. Right Click on target & auto fire (perhaps like auto target the CT). First Person shooting for more accurate fire. Movement will use arrows keys to turn the whole Mech at one time, no torso twist.

The Tanks in WoT don't have Jump Jets. Giving 'mechs JJets and third person results in a style of gameplay known as Pop-Tarting. It's very boring and ends any brawling or manuvering of 'mechs. MWO can't escape this same fate, can't prevent it by doing 3rd person differently. In MW4 3rd person was optional also, but in the end most leagues were forced to allow it and players in thise leagues will tell you how boring and repetitive pop-tarting was.

[von Pilsner]

Lightfoot, on 15 November 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

The Tanks in WoT don't have Jump Jets. Giving 'mechs JJets and third person results in a style of gameplay known as Pop-Tarting. It's very boring and ends any brawling or manuvering of 'mechs. MWO can't escape this same fate, can't prevent it by doing 3rd person differently. In MW4 3rd person was optional also, but in the end most leagues were forced to allow it and players in thise leagues will tell you how boring and repetitive pop-tarting was.

I remember the pop-tart fest... and I agree 100%.

[Alois Hammer]

RG Notch, on 15 November 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Any word from PGI about this?

Yeah, which one do you want? The archaic "all first person, pillar of our design" one or the more recent "well y'know, since some people can't figure out how to torso twist maybe we'll add in third person so they can watch themselves fumble ineffectually from a more interesting viewpoint rather than put in a tutorial to teach them how to torso twist?"

[Crash]

Here's a crazy idea... the idea behind 3rd person is to help newer players get acclimated to the game, right?


3rd person cameras ONLY on trial mechs!

I'm opposed to 3rd person for everyone. It's such a big advantage for an experienced player and it's not needed for a "simulator" game. That said, I support 3p view on ONLY trial mechs 100%.

It makes perfect sense!

New players won't have their own rides and need to use trial mechs anyway, so this is an obvious boon for them.

Sure, perhaps a more experienced player in a trial mech will have an advantage, but it's mitigated somewhat by all the restrictions built on to the trial mechs anway, like no customization and the xp/cbill penalties. Even if a powerful design makes it on the trial mech list for a while, it will eventually be replaced, making it that much harder for experienced players to abuse the system long-term.

Again, not interested in 3p views for all mechs. 100% in favor of 3p view for trial mechs!

[Skeletor9000]

I agree with everyone who has posted so far about how 3rd person will ruin the information-management aspect of the game. I never want to play with 3rd person and I never want to play AGAINST players using it.

That said, I think there IS a place for a 3rd person camera. That place is SINGLE PLAYER TRAINING. MWO is a game full of esoteric and non-intuitive gameplay systems. There is a steep learning curve. The only way PGI is ever going to get new players into the fold is to develop a robust single-player tutorial. Put people in a "VR simulator" or something similar. Military vehicle operators are trained in all of the systems of their mounts before engaging in combat, and mech pilots should expect the same.

Ease newbies into the concept by giving them a 3rd person camera. Let them do some circle-strafing of stationary and mobile targets. Once they're comfortable with the core torso-twist concept, put them inside the concept and start teaching them the sensors, paperdoll, etc.

The bottom-line: Once players understand the core torso-legs concept, there is NO REASON to allow them a 3rd person camera. Use it as a single-player teaching tool, then leave it behind.

[Ken Fury]

Amechwarrior, on 14 November 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

Like everyone else here, No. It sounds like a bad idea. But I'm going to play a little devils advocate and show how it can be done if it must in stages of "less forums in flames" to most.


1. Allow 3rd person within a single player tutorial mission

Let the 3rd person cam and the tutorial work together to get a new pilot used to moving while torso twisting. But at the end of the "Movement" mission, before they go on to firing they must navigate a simple maze by only 1st person while keeping their torsos aligned to a dummy target.

Let them practice all they want with 3rd/1st person mazes before the "gate" to the next tutorial level. But the end of the movement tutorial must have them moving in 1st person because allowing them to rely on 3rd person sets them up for failure in the real game that's 1st only. Further tutorial segments would not allow 3rd person.


2. New Pilots Matchmaker

Lets say you can't make a single player tutorial at all and are dead set on 3rd person view. Well then make a new queue for new accounts that runs by these rules:

• Trial 'Mechs only
  
• No stats tracked
  
• Money still earned at trial rates
  
• 1st or 3rd person camera available at any time.

Optional:

• New accounts with -50 games played only

These rules would make sure only new players fight other new players with the same loadouts and camera options. This does not touch the real game or anything where stats are tracked. However, this still lets new players gather cash to help them though the trial grind. Downsides are that they might be reliant on 3rd person view and when they get to the real game it will hit them like a brick and they won't like it. This is why method 1 is better then this method.



3. Separate queuing for 1st and 3rd person.

This is what Russ eluded to in the podcast and is frankly the worst option you could possibly do from all standpoints other then "lets get some new blood who will leave in 2 months without spending a dime once the next CoD is out."

This would segment the already small userbase, potentially disrupt CW, split friends/groups/clans who disagree on which queues to play on and everything else all the previous posters have listed in this thread. It's really the worst possible choice.

Keep 3rd person to training mode/queues only.

Don't let it touch the real game. It would be best if you never enabled it at all, but if you must then you have my feedback.

quoted cause he's damn right.

[Balu0]

What this game needs is better marketing ... we had a WoT TV spot here in my country. (CoD didnt had one !!)

Im a Battletech fan, yet iknow about WoT and Hawken , and just found MWO the other day... by accident!

Better marketing + Tutorial thats what you need...

[Paul Stern]

i think you should not introduce the 3rd person-view!

it would be counterproductive, because you guys are doing an incredible job by developing a simulation of battlemechs! i am so impressed by your work! with every step/patch of your developement, the piloting of the mechs feels more and more like a realy good simulation. i can imagine how difficult it is to translate the tabetop/canon etc. in a simulation like this!
so, 3rd person-view is "anti-realistical" ("" because of .. hey how could this be ever realistical .. mechs etc.?..) and counterproductiv to what you are doing regarding developing the best mecha-simulation ever, which is always getting better and better!.

[Like a Sir]

Boswelli, on 15 November 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

That won't happen because it's not a all or nothing scenario. You use 3rd person view for moving/viewing around, and then zoom with mouse wheel into 1st person to shoot and aim. That works great in WoT, so why not use this control system here?

Really don't understand all these hates against 3rd pv. For all of you who like to use only 1st pv nothing would change, if PGI implements a good sight system.

Except for the part where you still have better situational awareness, and can sit and watch your own back, while you wait for someone to lumber in to your line of fire, then you drop in first person... That's not very sim like. And yes, there are flight simulators that do 3rd person view, but they either don't have all the hud info when you do 3rd person, or happen to be the single player games, where it doesn't make a lick of a difference.

[Kalathin]

Im going to have to agree with both sides here..... I can understand the learning curve issue and MANY good ideas have been brought up on implamentation. 3rd person for tutorial purposes or on trial mechs only would be a very creative way to satisfy both the needs of a company trying to bring a biger audiance to a product and it would also IMHO satisfy MOST of the fan base currently up in arms about what we all know to be a game crushing feature.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Boswelli, on 15 November 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

That won't happen because it's not a all or nothing scenario. You use 3rd person view for moving/viewing around, and then zoom with mouse wheel into 1st person to shoot and aim. That works great in WoT, so why not use this control system here?

Really don't understand all these hates against 3rd pv. For all of you who like to use only 1st pv nothing would change, if PGI implements a good sight system.

What's not to understand here? We want to sit IN Mech, not control a small figure in god mode, I played X3 Reunion no, because there was no cockpit more, I sit in reality, not even when driving in the car, I'm not sitting on a cloud behind the plane what more realistic graphics, then when I only models from the rear steer, which I also obstruct the view, before I want the spaceship, the 'Mech, the formula 1 cars as in reality manage to feel right in the middle, and not outside