3696 replies to this topic

[Joe3142]

No. Definatly not.

[-Teiwaz-]

It makes me very sad that PGI would do this. Shame on you for turning MechWarrior into a 3rd person shooter.

[Taryys]

3rd Person Creates Problems

Training wheels/crutch such as 3rd person view will have the players used to playing the game in 3rd person and then whine because they cannot play with it in the rest of the game. 3rd person will create more problems then they solve, since their minds will have been trained to see the game in the 3rd person view and shifting to the 1st person view will be disconcerting and create a dissonance even though the controls are the same. Begin QQ threads...



Soltuion To Not Desire 3rd Person and Ease the New Player Experience

The real answer and the most important thing that this game needs for newbies is a robust tutorial and a practice area. Here they can learn how to pilot through the tutorial process and then take their trial mechs out for a spin to get used to it. You will want to throw carrots and achievements in this process too. You could even throw the 3rd person here in the tutorial so that people can use it to get acclimated, but no where else.

Teach a pilot to fish and all of that.

A stop gap idea would be to add a button to lock torso to legs until they can get are able to put on their big mech pants and join the big leagues by learning to torso twist.

What will really help new players in addition to this is C3 integration for PUGs and stat based match making so new players will be matched with new players. Note, I did not say trials to trials, since vets can pilot trials too.


Other related ideas


Giving CBIll: Giving new players CBills isn't going to really help the trial grind problem and will only create more problems. They will end up wasting their money since they will have no idea what they are doing and then rage/QQ because of it. There is a significant learning curve to the game not only in controls, but in what all of the weapons do, etc.

Grind: The primary thing that needs to be done to lessen the grindyness of the grind is to give them access to the mech lab. My suggestions, as I have stated in other threads, is as follows:

* have trial mechs alternate weekly
* Remove the Win/Loss bonus
* Balance out the XP/CBill rewards based on roles and weighted based on weight and role of mech; in mech lab allow mech to set the role that the mech will perform in (scout, brawler, Long range support, etc)
* Allow trials access to mechlab and level 1 tech, and not be able to change the engine, and let them modify the mech based on what ever CBills they have, and when the trial mechs switch the players keep the stuff that they bought to outfit their next trial/purchased mech.

These changes will take care of AFK/Suicide Farmers and will give trial people access to the mechlab right away, but not give them access to everything. This will allow them to get a feel for the mechs and to have time to figure out how to pilot these mech thingys, as well as keeping them from wasting their money and raging/rage-quitting about it.

Pay to trial a variant: I think it may be better for people to be able to select a variant that they want to trial in addition to the random ones. If they find one they like they may be more inclined to purchase it. Perhaps have the ability to pay a small amount of MC to be able to trial a specific mech, or perhaps to be able to trial any variants for week.. This can create another small revenue stream, especially each time a new mech comes out. New players will want to try out the new mech to see if they want it.

[Sevaradan]

I'd rather see the game fail than be continually dumbed down with stupid **** like 3rd person view.

[Axeman316]

I got into this game 2 days after open beta went live and I love it. I played tabletop back in 90-96 and still have all my books and figures. I love the first person view in this game it makes it what it is. Going 3rd person is a bad idea but I can understand new people not understanding torso twist but it aint that hard to get.

[AtomicFrawg]

Sooooo..... Its pretty safe to say, No-one wants 3rd person view. There is even a poll with over 750 votes for no. That along should be a clue.

[JokerVictor]

No. Constructive enough?


Also,

Taryys, on 14 November 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

3rd Person Creates Problems

Training wheels/crutch such as 3rd person view will have the players used to playing the game in 3rd person and then whine because they cannot play with it in the rest of the game. 3rd person will create more problems then they solve, since their minds will have been trained to see the game in the 3rd person view and shifting to the 1st person view will be disconcerting and create a dissonance even though the controls are the same. Begin QQ threads...



Soltuion To Not Desire 3rd Person and Ease the New Player Experience

The real answer and the most important thing that this game needs for newbies is a robust tutorial and a practice area. Here they can learn how to pilot through the tutorial process and then take their trial mechs out for a spin to get used to it. You will want to throw carrots and achievements in this process too. You could even throw the 3rd person here in the tutorial so that people can use it to get acclimated, but no where else.

Teach a pilot to fish and all of that.

A stop gap idea would be to add a button to lock torso to legs until they can get are able to put on their big mech pants and join the big leagues by learning to torso twist.

What will really help new players in addition to this is C3 integration for PUGs and stat based match making so new players will be matched with new players. Note, I did not say trials to trials, since vets can pilot trials too.


Other related ideas


Giving CBIll: Giving new players CBills isn't going to really help the trial grind problem and will only create more problems. They will end up wasting their money since they will have no idea what they are doing and then rage/QQ because of it. There is a significant learning curve to the game not only in controls, but in what all of the weapons do, etc.

Grind: The primary thing that needs to be done to lessen the grindyness of the grind is to give them access to the mech lab. My suggestions, as I have stated in other threads, is as follows:

* have trial mechs alternate weekly
* Remove the Win/Loss bonus
* Balance out the XP/CBill rewards based on roles and weighted based on weight and role of mech; in mech lab allow mech to set the role that the mech will perform in (scout, brawler, Long range support, etc)
* Allow trials access to mechlab and level 1 tech, and not be able to change the engine, and let them modify the mech based on what ever CBills they have, and when the trial mechs switch the players keep the stuff that they bought to outfit their next trial/purchased mech.

These changes will take care of AFK/Suicide Farmers and will give trial people access to the mechlab right away, but not give them access to everything. This will allow them to get a feel for the mechs and to have time to figure out how to pilot these mech thingys, as well as keeping them from wasting their money and raging/rage-quitting about it.

Pay to trial a variant: I think it may be better for people to be able to select a variant that they want to trial in addition to the random ones. If they find one they like they may be more inclined to purchase it. Perhaps have the ability to pay a small amount of MC to be able to trial a specific mech, or perhaps to be able to trial any variants for week.. This can create another small revenue stream, especially each time a new mech comes out. New players will want to try out the new mech to see if they want it.

These are all fantastic ideas. All of them.

Edited by JokerVictor, 14 November 2012 - 11:41 AM.

[Taryys]

Very much this too.

Prosperity Park, on 14 November 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

In my opinion, allowing/encouraging players to "learn" the game in 3rd person will make them more dependent on 3rd person as a fully-integrated feature to be used in all battles. You can't put in a 3rd person training facility and expect players to be happy when they can't actually use it in-game.

Seeing that the demand for 3rd person training is so strong that this demand might get it into the game, it's only a matter of time before said demand is applied to integrating 3rd person into the mainstream gameplay.

[grayson marik]

OK, despite anything that has been sayed for the last month's at least.... all I can say is NO!

3rd person view was the worst nightmare on all former MW titles:

- It was the reason for hill sniping ( either jump and walk back/forward )
- It was the reason for the death of multiple leagues and also
- The death to immersion

And it made crap like Mechassault possible, which MS created out of the experience from MW4
And which by the way failed very very glorious!

You wanted to create a true Battletech like game - stick with your goals!
Just do some good tutorial and good menus and UI and even the new player will fall in love with the immersion almost imediately!

Dont you dare to make the same mistakes M$ made:
softening up the game for braindamaged and physically incapacitated i.d.i.o.t.s!
( sorry for the implicit insults but I needed to use this hard words to make the results of this step visible. )

If you simply down this game to the level 3rd person view would do it, you will reduce the livetime of your project from decades to some years. May be 2...

Let me show you an example:

Mechcommader 1 gold is still played today, even in the internet on gameranger and on some other places.
Mechcommander 2 not so much....

Why?
You can see from the targeted audience - Mechcommander one reached to the core BT fan much more than MC 2.

And this will happen to this also: keep it immerse and Battletech appelling and your program will live for a looong time.
Go to the mainstream and this thing will die to games like Hawken, which are faster and more simple and right now in a better shape than this product.

I strongly suggest that you make up your mind, who your estimated long time audience is and then try to stay true to this audience and style!

Last but not least this:

Mercules, on 14 November 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

~IF~ you absolutely, positively must include it then I would prefer you make it so that you can queue for 1st person or 3rd person matches and let your loyal community continue to play the way they want to and give your newbs a crappy version they might enjoy.

And my last personal note ( no rant or something just the way it is ) :

If 3rd comes up - even without splited queue - this will be the day I will stop to invest even one cent into this game and will quit it the way i quit WoT. I dont want to play dump, simple minded games in Battletech universe! Depth and immersion is it what brought me to BTin the 90ies and the lack of both was it that made me quit WoT for example after the first 4 weeks of play.

[F lan Ker]

S!

Alexa, the other FPS games have 3rd person thus nothing would differentiate MWO from them. Simple.

[Dagger6T6]

Ozzalin, on 14 November 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

Yes well... didn't see that F4, i stopped at: Yes implement 3rd person... hehe...hehehehe.
Ok sorry... i'll auto-torture myself for the next hour.

I forgive you Ozzy

[Myc]

I don't see what the big deal is. MW4 had the 3rd person option, with the option for the game host to lock it out. Some leagues played exclusively with it locked out. If you don't like it, don't use it and don't play with people who use it.

[Zylo]

Salient, on 14 November 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

Look at all this outrage, it probably guarantees PGI WILL do it, since they figure the opposite of whatever we say will earn them the most money. And they are probably right.

PGI can make this change if they want to but they stand to lose a large group of supporters who are willing to spend money on the game over the long term.

So I guess the choice will come down to losing the longtime suporters as well as their money if 3rd person view is added vs attracting new players who want 3rd person but may or may not be willing to spend money on the game.

It's very difficult to argue in favor of a change that would chase off longtime supporters.

The best way to keep new players will be teaching them to play the game as it exists currently. A training mission could easily include a mission where a new player shoots at moving targets while moving around objects placed to block forward movement. Shoot as many targets as possible while moving to the end of the course. New players can certainly learn how to move the legs to move around objects blocking their path while shooting at targets that pop up as they move to the end of the course.

[FactorlanP]

It seems that you are considering 3rd person view because you feel that new players are having trouble wrapping their minds around the concept of the feet and torso pointing in different directions.

There are already multiple in cockpit markers that indicate the current orientation of each.

The problem isn't that 3rd person view is needed for these new folks who can't figure it out.

The problem is that you need a Tutorial Mode for ALL new players.

• Use it to teach them where the torso/feet markers are and how they work
  
• Use it to teach them how to set weapons groups
  
• Use it to teach them what the range indicators are and what happens if you are beyond those ranges
  
• Use it to teach them about the throttle
  
• Use it to teach them some basic info, like LRM minimum range... PPC minimum range
  
• Use it to teach the most basic heat management concepts
  
• Use it to teach them about the Battle Map and what the different icons mean
  
• Use it to explain what a Trial mech is, for God's sake

And many many more!


The problem is that there currently is NO good way to educate the new user IN GAME. Heck, there's really not even a good official resource here on the forums.

So many problems could be solved with a mandatory Tutorial mode for ALL new players.

Third person view WILL NOT solve these problems! It will only create NEW problems.

Even with a check box that opts out of 3rd person opponents, you would be splitting the player base into two different games. Never ever ever a good idea...

If you only make 3rd person view available for new guys, you're just going to make them mad when you take it away.

There are so many BETTER ideas to solve the problem that you say you are addressing with 3rd person.


I feel very betrayed by this.

I was more then willing to remain calm while you stumble your way through Beta. But this is something that I feel very very strongly about and I cannot yet imagine an implementation of this that won't be a deal breaker for me.

This is a very sad day.

Edited by FactorlanP, 14 November 2012 - 11:44 AM.

[AtomicFrawg]

Myc, on 14 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I don't see what the big deal is. MW4 had the 3rd person option, with the option for the game host to lock it out. Some leagues played exclusively with it locked out. If you don't like it, don't use it and don't play with people who use it.

The problem is, you are not playing off of a host player. You are playing on servers we have zero control over.

Edited by AtomicFrawg, 14 November 2012 - 11:41 AM.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

I think 3rd person is a great idea because:

1. It will draw many more players into the game.

2. It will let us take impressive screenshots.

3. We will finally get to see the very nice 3D models of our mechs.

4. We will be able to see our own camo paint jobs.

As long as we have separate 1st person and 3rd person servers everything will be fine.

[DraigUK]

Stop dumbing down the game for the damned windowlickers who can't even learn how to walk??!!?!?!

How many games have utterly failed due to stupid decisions like this. Look after your real customers not the console crowd who can't even learn to walk?? Follow what EvE did not the likes of DAoC, Warhammer Online, SWG, AoC etc etc who ALL fail when they make the decision to cater to the 5min crowd instead of your true customers.

You said you wouldn't do it. We all bought into it. Now you say you will.


NO

FFS stop ruining the game. The last several implementations you've done have been badly handled, the net code, MM, bugs, maps all need work and you want to do this instead? For real?

Very disappointed in the direction your going, but you don't give a **** now you got my $120 right?

[GuyDL]

As a relative new player I really wish PGI would get their priorities straight.

How about

- a tutorial
- tooltips
- a list of how much premium costs BEFORE having to buy MC points
- a MatchMaker that pairs up Trials vs Trials (for the new players), and then seperate MM's for premades/partials
- a balance to weapons/heat management that would make playing with, say PPC's, actually worthwhile

All those things are way more important than an optional 3rd person view.

About the subject of 3rd person view:
I personally would not play in it and at most would like to have the option to use it when viewing other mechs in a replay or when spectating.

[TrentTheWanderer]

Agent of Change, on 14 November 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

ooh ooh i have the best constructive feedback...

AS of 2:25 pm EST the poll on the 28 PAGE original discussion about this very issue has 851 votes cast and NINTEY PERCENT thats right a 9 with a 0 after it percent of you most active and vocal players ARE DEEPLY OPPOSED TO THE IDEA. ~4.5% are indifferent to it and only about ~4.5% are for it.

Does that mean anything to you?

In the research field we call that "Statistically Relevant".

[xZaOx]

This is a terrible idea. It kills immersion. It provides people to stand behind buildings/structures and see above them, and pop snipe, then disappear.

Leave it AS IS. Fix other parts of the game to make it more noob friendly.