3696 replies to this topic

[Amechwarrior]

Like everyone else here, No. It sounds like a bad idea. But I'm going to play a little devils advocate and show how it can be done if it must in stages of "less forums in flames" to most.


1. Allow 3rd person within a single player tutorial mission

Let the 3rd person cam and the tutorial work together to get a new pilot used to moving while torso twisting. But at the end of the "Movement" mission, before they go on to firing they must navigate a simple maze by only 1st person while keeping their torsos aligned to a dummy target.

Let them practice all they want with 3rd/1st person mazes before the "gate" to the next tutorial level. But the end of the movement tutorial must have them moving in 1st person because allowing them to rely on 3rd person sets them up for failure in the real game that's 1st only. Further tutorial segments would not allow 3rd person.


2. New Pilots Matchmaker

Lets say you can't make a single player tutorial at all and are dead set on 3rd person view. Well then make a new queue for new accounts that runs by these rules:

• Trial 'Mechs only
  
• No stats tracked
  
• Money still earned at trial rates
  
• 1st or 3rd person camera available at any time.

Optional:

• New accounts with -50 games played only

These rules would make sure only new players fight other new players with the same loadouts and camera options. This does not touch the real game or anything where stats are tracked. However, this still lets new players gather cash to help them though the trial grind. Downsides are that they might be reliant on 3rd person view and when they get to the real game it will hit them like a brick and they won't like it. This is why method 1 is better then this method.


3. Separate queuing for 1st and 3rd person.

This is what Russ eluded to in the podcast and is frankly the worst option you could possibly do from all standpoints other then "lets get some new blood who will leave in 2 months without spending a dime once the next CoD is out."

This would segment the already small userbase, potentially disrupt CW, split friends/groups/clans who disagree on which queues to play on and everything else all the previous posters have listed in this thread. It's really the worst possible choice.

Keep 3rd person to training mode/queues only.

Don't let it touch the real game. It would be best if you never enabled it at all, but if you must then you have my feedback.

[Magik0012]

In general, NO!

Even if they were totally separate play (matching) modes, I think I would still say no, because I fear it would lead to an ever expanding rift of divergent gameplay and game-style specific feature-creep that would end up harming both modes.

I can see it being useful for:
A ) creating fantastic screenshots and MechCinema..
(BUT how do you make it work without giving any advantages to the 3rd person camera?)

B ) a tutorial only environment (as others have mentioned)

But, honestly, PGI seems to have more than enough work on their plates just creating the game mode we have now..

edit: stupid emoticons

Edited by Magik0012, 14 November 2012 - 12:01 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

Dukarriope, on 14 November 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

I'm still listening to that podcast... and then I hear Russ talking about how he's "more more more", but... That's exactly what killed Kaos Studios.

It's great to have a vision and I think PGI has a great one, but you have to know how to limit it. Promising too much can easily backfire.

Unlike Kaos though the game is out and already making money. It's important that they keep the player base wide and the money flowing in so the game can keep growing and expanding.

KharnZor, on 14 November 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

90% of the player base does not want it. Having said that i doubt they will listen.

These forums are not 90% of the player base.

[Kunae]

Joe Luck, on 14 November 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

I know the player base probably isn't bringing in the money that you thought when you went open beta. This will not make you more money.

They can't seem to comprehend that the reason people aren't spending more money has zero to do with not having 3rd person.

The reasons are as follows:

Lack of content.
Lack of bug fixes.
Major, and yet obvious, bugs deployed in hyped patches.
Extremely poor choices regarding important items such as DHS and MatchMaking.
Flippant dismissal of the Closed Beta testing community.

This has all lead to a distinct lack of trust in the developers, and has reduced or eliminated a large portion of your player-base's urge play this game. People play less=people pay less.

PGI: You need to shore up your "hardcore" player-base, before, you try to attract new-to-the-genre people. How you can do this is to correct all of the missteps I listed above.

[TheAquired]

I'm sure people will be upset with me for saying this, but alot of people on this site are the diehard fans that Russ was talking about when he said, the first version of the Open Beta was for them. Now I am a new fan, this game introduced me to the whole Idea of BattleMechs, and because I enjoyed it so much, I showed my brother it, trying to get him interested. I listened to the podcast that Russ was on, and I agree with him completely. My brother lost interest immediately and this is exactly what he said:
"The Controls are too complicated, I cant have fun if I dont know how to do anything"
While I learnt the hard way, and it definitly paid off, many many many new users are being put of in the same way. Lets face it, as Russ said, PGI is a business, and they want to see MechWarrior Online run strong for years. You cant expect not to have any new customers. It just wont work. AND they never said that 3rd person would even be something that would be an advantage. He specifically said they'll make sure its not going to have an advantage, and I personally believe the ebst thing to do is create a tutorial which starts off in 3rd person, and then gradually moves on to be first person, so that the person can understand all the basics. If necessary, introduce a matchmaking system where 3rd person can battle 3rd person. I think you'll never find an experience like 1st person though.. So I like the idea of the tutorial. DEVS, please, your a business, dont only listen to the diehard fans. As a new player, I have the perspective to see exactly where you are coming from with this.

[Nightfangs]

Adding 3rd person camera would be okay for a training mode (with no CB/exp gain).
In the normal game modes, it would just suck and destroy the game... why not implement a strafing and jumping feature while you are at it?

While I respect the wish to make the game more beginner-friendly, I think the balance (PPC!!), the technical aspects (lagshield, weapon convergence, firing delay) and just some real, longterm gameplay/modes would be that much more important.
How difficult is it to understand the rotation of your torso, the setup of weapon groups, playing a little around in the mechlab?
Just give the beginners an empty map, the opportunity to join the map together with a friend to show them around and some barrels to shoot at.
They can see the direction of their feet if they look at their radar, that should be manageable.

So, I think that noone really needs the 3rd person view.
If you can't learn how to drive your mech without it, it would be better to stay at home... I think.

[Purlana]

3rd person would only cover up the flaws of the game and not fix the actual problems. Therefore it is a waste of time and resources.

What we really need is a tutorial / training for new players. They said the game is almost ready, but we still don't have a tutorial?

Are they serious???

Edited by Purlana, 14 November 2012 - 12:02 PM.

[Coolant]

Toolan, on 14 November 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

oh, splitting the players in Lame 3rd person noob and 1sr Person Hardcores...not Bad...but no. 1st Person view is the only Option for a Mechwarrior

It's not...Mercs had 3rd Person and the vast majority of players populated 3rd Person View servers. In fact, there usualy were no Team Battle (most popular game type) 1st Person Servers at all. And, when someone would create one it was usually always empty. The majority of players there had the choice and chose 3rd Person. It is merely your opinion that 1st person view is the only option for a mechwarrior...not great grounds to stand on, since it's...your opinion.

[ski2060]

Not for live games. NO 3rd person view.
It would split the game population into at least 2 groups, bringing down the numbers for getting into a match right away.

I HATE to make a comparison to WoT or WoWP, but make Training only matches for new players.
Matches that are against other trial or new players. No XP or Cbills, 3rd person enabled with tooltips that demonstrate everything a new player would need to know.

That way they would not in any way affect the live game play environment, yet help noobs learn how to manipulate their mech and deal with the intricacies of piloting a Battlemech.

[TruePoindexter]

TheAquired, on 14 November 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

I'm sure people will be upset with me for saying this, but alot of people on this site are the diehard fans that Russ was talking about when he said, the first version of the Open Beta was for them. Now I am a new fan, this game introduced me to the whole Idea of BattleMechs, and because I enjoyed it so much, I showed my brother it, trying to get him interested. I listened to the podcast that Russ was on, and I agree with him completely. My brother lost interest immediately and this is exactly what he said:
"The Controls are too complicated, I cant have fun if I dont know how to do anything"
While I learnt the hard way, and it definitly paid off, many many many new users are being put of in the same way. Lets face it, as Russ said, PGI is a business, and they want to see MechWarrior Online run strong for years. You cant expect not to have any new customers. It just wont work. AND they never said that 3rd person would even be something that would be an advantage. He specifically said they'll make sure its not going to have an advantage, and I personally believe the ebst thing to do is create a tutorial which starts off in 3rd person, and then gradually moves on to be first person, so that the person can understand all the basics. If necessary, introduce a matchmaking system where 3rd person can battle 3rd person. I think you'll never find an experience like 1st person though.. So I like the idea of the tutorial. DEVS, please, your a business, dont only listen to the diehard fans. As a new player, I have the perspective to see exactly where you are coming from with this.

This - thank you. A lot of people are having a hard time disconnecting themselves from their years of experience and just appreciating the game for what it is. This is the first time we're getting to play a legitimate mechwarrior game in a decade. That is a big deal.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 14 November 2012 - 12:04 PM.

[endevite]

Erg, no 3rd person, if people can't get used to torso twist, make a tutorial mission, not 3rd person view. This isn't Gears of War on an Xbox.

[Protection]

If you are going to force 3rd person on us, can you at least segregate it?

Have a 'casual' mode and an 'advanced' mode - mechanics are more or less the same, but Casual can offer big flashy warning indicators, third person view, respawns, etc etc, while advanced mode is the 'competitive' scene and builds on the gameplay already established.

That way, MechAssault casuals can remain satisfied, while us PC Gaming master race can still have our 1337 competition and tight gameplay.

[MechFrog1]

3rd person is terrible and I will stop playing if it goes in. How's that for feedback?

[BrotherEJ]

As a new player I think 3rd person view in a game like this would not teach me how to drive. Playing the game does a much better job. Perhaps make a better leg position indicator then the mini map. Also rather then have the guns align to the legs direction it would be far better to have the legs align to the guns direction. (if this is already possible fill the new guy in thanks) So from the new guy perspective bad idea wouldn't help.

Love the game

[Dexion]

Short Answer: Please, No. Third person view offers too many advantages, and frankly smacks of "dumbing down" the game.

Long Answer: I understand that new user experiance for MWO is bad right now. But frankly the reason for this has very little to do with "no 3rd person view". or "difficult controls" and everything to do with the fact that the community has been ignored on some major issues (Matchmaking and Tutorial).

When it was suggested that the matchmaker only match trial mechs with trial mechs, it was said that splitting the community was unworkable dew to the low player base. Automaticaly queing each players first 20 drops into a trial mech only que would have (in my opinion) dramatically increased new player enjoyment; giving them a chance to drop against other new players and learn the ropes without getting demolished. Granting the player there own Commando at the end of these "Simulator Drops" (win or lose) would have given players a tangible reward they were working towards. The player could then have the option of selling the commando to get a head start on purchasing a heavier mech if they choose, or playing there own custom commando. They could also continue using the trial mechs if they wanted to pilot something heavier. Ideas like this were discarded in favor of the current "Grind Trials" system, which doesn't even award XP for using these mechs.

To add insult to injury, There is no tutorial or testing field for new players (those in trials, or those attempting to customize there own rides). A You-Tube video does not cut it.

How can you say that players are having difficulty piloting there mech, and that the solution to that is to implement 3rd person view (that we, the players who have been supportive and are here NOW, were assured would Not be included) when NOTHING else has been tried on the live servers to correct the issue? A simple testing field, run only on your local machine (so as to not tie up server space), that features a few stationary (and destructable) targets, navigation way-points and simple objectives would do wonders for letting new players hit the ground running.

Please don't attempt to fragment the community by breaking us into "3rd Person" and "1st person" camps..One side or the other is going to be smaller, will get "ignored", and end up leaving in the end... If you allow new players to use 3rd person for a limited time, then suddenly take the ability away, they are going to (rightly) expect it back, just don't even go down that path.

Give us a tutorial first, even if it is bare bones and basic. Then a Trial Mech only Que (seriously, how was this NOT "Phase 1" of Matchmaking?!?).

I strongly feel these two small steps would give new players the fighting chance they need. If those don't work, look into other options. Don't change the entire game right from the start. Heck, even Hawken isn't 3rd person.

[gregsolidus]

TruePoindexter, on 14 November 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

This - thank you.

How hard is it to move in one direction and look in another? This is what Halo has done to gamers.

[Budor]

I am all for an spectator 3rd person camera and a kill camera to see more of those beautifully reimagined mechs in action.

But please DO NOT IMPLEMENT 3rd person for piloting

[Crashagn]

Enable 3rd person view and this "simulator" will be uninstalled and I will be done with it. If they want to get the satellite uplink going or some temp uav drone that has a time limit set for use, then that would be more then dandy and more towards the gameplay.

Edited by Crashagn, 14 November 2012 - 12:06 PM.

[Chet Manley]

A terrible idea... Just... Just terrible.

Part of the game is the learning curve, not knowing whats around the corner, having to watch ones heat and ammo... Not having an easy button.

We have yet to see a better matchmaking system and your already jumping on this bandwagon? Why not fix the system to put more premades against premades and pugs against pugs?

We have yet to see private training servers, or ANY training space implemented for that matter. Instead you slapped together some videos and added a misleading button to the games primary screen. You have pugs crying for something/anything AND you have companies crying out for a place to practice. But, instead you want to feed us 3rd person mode?

As well, there is talk of making this a separate game mode. You might as well consider making it a separate game entirely considering all the changes you'll end up adding in trying to make everyone happy. This has been done. It was called MechAssault.

Unless it has become PGI's goal to toss its fan base aside for a grab at as much cash as possible. Then this may work for a while.

Edited by Chet Manley, 14 November 2012 - 12:11 PM.

[Dukarriope]

Amechwarrior, on 14 November 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

1. Allow 3rd person within a single player tutorial mission

Let the 3rd person cam and the tutorial work together to get a new pilot used to moving while torso twisting. But at the end of the "Movement" mission, before they go on to firing they must navigate a simple maze by only 1st person while keeping their torsos aligned to a dummy target.

Let them practice all they want with 3rd/1st person mazes before the "gate" to the next tutorial level. But the end of the movement tutorial must have them moving in 1st person because allowing them to rely on 3rd person sets them up for failure in the real game that's 1st only. Further tutorial segments would not allow 3rd person.

A good extension of what I was thinking. This is really the best way to get your new players to accustom themselves to what MechWarrior Online should be, a first person 'mech warfare simulator.