3696 replies to this topic

[TruePoindexter]

Kunae, on 14 November 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

We don't want those people.

Just because everyone else does it a certain way has no bearing on its worth. There is value in being more than a console shooter.

So what you're saying is you want a $100 millon dollar game with a player base worth much less. That's quite silly.

[gedraxx]

Josef Nader, on 14 November 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Mechwarrior 3 solved this problem nicely. The default paper doll was a 3D representation of your mech that mirrored all your movements. If your torso twisted in the game, the 3D doll twisted to show you how you were positioned. It gave you a good sense of your mech's orientation without all of the negatives that come with a third person view. It's a great feature, I think, and insanely useful for new players to understand how their mech is behaving.

On top of that, torso/leg orientation hasn't been a problem for any of the new players I've introduced, and this is the first mech-sim for more than a few of them. This seems like using a sledgehammer to pound in furniture tacks. It causes a lot more damage than it fixes.

EDIT: In addition, training someone in third person view does nothing to train them in how to pilot and recognize orientation in first person view. You already have several indicators that show you your orientation. Make them more obvious and polish up your HUD a bit more before relying on such heavy-handed solutions to easily-fixable problems.

I second and emphasize this idea. This is such an elegant solution to two big aspects here:

1. Viewing Camo. Having your camo show up on your paperdoll solves that nicely. You can lock at your paperdoll with pride, and you can look at your enemy's paperdoll to see just what House you're fighting against before you see 'em up close.

2. Mech Mechanics and Damage. Being able to see the traversal of the torso and arms instantly allows you to understand how your control movements are translating into actual use. Also, by doing it this way, you avoid all concerns of seeing behind cover or behind your mech, since the only thing rendered is the mech itself. Use a colored frame around each mech component that changes from yellow to orange to red as armor blows, then shade in the texture in yellow, orange, red as internal gets hit.

I will also add my 2c on direct 3rd Person play:

Don't do it, why?

1. If optional, it splits the player base.
2. If mandatory, it deletes most of the playerbase, including me.
3. Even if optional, even if only for new players, they will get used to the inherent and unrealistic advantages and demand it after the "newbie period". This will kill the community, guaranteed.
The community dies, the sales die. That is what your creditors MUST be made to understand.

DO:

1. Add INTERACTIVE tutorials. Almost every Mechwarrior game I've ever played had these and they were all VERY useful in learning the basics. How do you think we (the veteran players of the series) learned coordination of torso twist, jumpjets, and leg movement anyhow?

2. Add a TEST ARENA. Either populate with new players in Trial Mechs or completely empty with targets and a handling course. Make it FUN to learn how to play the game in a low-pressure environment, that will give players the CONFIDENCE to play the game in the high-pressure/high stakes team environment. This will give the new players that sense of "WOW, this game is AMAZING!"

I love this game's potential, I haven't been this stoked about a game in a long time, as long as the train doesn't derail from the tracks. Please, make this game for the FANS and word of mouth, pretty graphics, good competition and a deep meta game will compel the masses to stop by and stay and make those millions you need.

Edited by gedraxx, 14 November 2012 - 12:12 PM.

[Quxudica]

Kauhava, on 14 November 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

Not really. Look at the poll results. Oh my, 90% of people agree with him.

It's anecdotal, the pole sample size is to small to be particularly useful (granted it may be more or less useful depending on the actual size of the active community). You can extrapolate a larger idea of the general communities feelings based on it, but the margin for error would be fairly high.

That said, MWO is and Mechwarrior in general have always had Sim elements to them. It's supposed to be a "You are driving the mech" game and not a "You are a giant mech" game. There is a distinct and crucial difference in feel generated by the two different perspective concepts. I am not a huge BT fan, nor a huge MW fan. I have fond memories of Mechwarrior to be sure but I had largely forgotten about the franchise when I was surprised with a closed beta invite. Even then, my memories of playing Mechwarrior all consist of first person cockpit viewed game play and the slow methodical nature of western mechs.

[AA Yeti]

For everyone freaking out about the third person camera needs to chill out...

Russ said "When you go into matchmaking it will be an option to only play against teams using third person cameras"

Thus if you are hard core (Most of us are) we will only be playing against others not using the third person view.

Seriously do your research before you look like an a$$hat

[RasputiN]

3rd PV for me=quit

[Egomane]

Seperating the playerbase is not a good thing. Even now, it feels like there are not enough players on the servers. If we now split the players into two factions, we will lose the coherence of the players.

Yes, we argue about the rights and wrongs the matchmaker does to us. Yes, we argue about the balance of the weapons. Yes, we even argue about 3PV. What we do not argue about, is the fact, that this community should not be split.

We gave PGI/IGP our money on the promise, that we would get a game that is for the enthusiasts. That we would get a game, that would be to much for the hardware of some of us. That we would get a game were everyone could get all the equipment and mechs the game has to offer with ingame money, if we invest enough time (a promise already broken). That this game would be first person view only.

We gave you our money because you promised us something. We gave you our money because we believed, that your promises would be kept. That you can be trusted!

We do want this game to succeed as much as you do. Inclusion of a 3PV to help along the new players is the wrong way. Instead give us a training ground. A map with open terrain, with a city block, with water and with targets to aim your weapons at. Give the new players this map and they can learn how to move their torso and legs and how to keep track of their sorroundings. This will help make the players better at this game. 3PV will not!

Do not split the playerbase and keep your promises!

[Kauhava]

FrupertApricot, on 14 November 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

Why isnt this thread a poll?

There's a great one out there already. Doubt the devs can ignore it, with ~900 votes and a 90% majority towards no.

[Zyzyx66]

It's not like it'd take all that much effort to implement it for the purposes of testing - it can always be removed if the apocalypse strikes.

People are SERIOUS about their camera angles these days

[TruePoindexter]

Viper69, on 14 November 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

How is this oppressive though? This is us holding PGI to what they stated to us to lure us in to get our money. If that is oppression I am oppressing the heck out of them.

Because you're making a decision for them that is potentially hurtful for them based on your world view. It's that simple. If a new player benefits (even marginally) from a feature and you shoot it down because you don't like it you are intentionally contributing to a worse experience for that new player.

[Ravigne]

I say NO! For reasons I'm sure have already been stated in this 9 page thread.

If we get 3rd person implemented, can we also get a staples "EASY" button inside our mechs as a dash ornament?

[Kazvall]

3rd person camera is maybe the dumbest thing I've heard in awhile. It works in WoT because tanks are all low to the ground. How tall is a Commando compared to an Atlas? So much for unique cockpit placement meaning anything. If someone isn't willing to take the time to learn how to move their torso and their legs independently, like in real life, then they should stick to Call of Dooky. This is Mechwarrior.

There is no way to put this in without it ruining the game. On one hand anyone can use 3rd person all the time, which causes a huge huge imbalance and gives a finger to the games history and design. The other way is divide the game experience into 3rd person or no 3rd person. Thus, splitting the community in half.

Come on PGI.

[gregsolidus]

TruePoindexter, on 14 November 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

That's how it is though. I have no problem with the concept. You have no problem with the concept. Getting my wife (avid MMO player) into it though? Getting my friends who mostly play games like Metal Gear Solid or Resident Evil? Those people could benefit from this.

If you're smart enough to play Metal Gear Solid and can deal with the tank like controls that have been a part of the Resident Evil franchise for years the concept of your legs moving in one direction and your chest pointing in another should be something that takes maybe half an hour to get a feel for. Beyond that, there are so many more complex systems an nuances involved that if your wife needs an entirely separate perspective just to move I can't imagine her coming up with a properly balanced loadout or managing heat intelligently. There are some definite flaws with the New Player Experience but a 3rd person camera the devs have said no to multiple times is not the right place to start.

[Firefun]

I can see the reason for easy access via 3rd person view to new players, which otherwise "maybe" would be discouraged to go on and learn MWO in it´s full extent. (concern: new players leaving the game before they know how to control a mech, because of steep learning curve (specifically torso twisting mechanics?)). ..which I can sense is a concern for PGI.

Give new players a training mode that is separate from the main game instead, so they can learn torso twisting mechanics. Like an in-game tutorial on how to steer your mech etc.

"uncontrolled" 3rd person view gives just so many advantages to the user, so that 1st person becomes obsolete if one wants to stay competitive. ..I think that is the concern of the community.

[soarra]

NO simply no, This is a sim/fps not a fps. piloting a mech should always be first person view. third person view would just ruin the game for a lot of people including myself.
Give new players a training map to hop in and fool around that has some tips on it to help them out.

Edited by soarra, 14 November 2012 - 12:14 PM.

[MechFrog1]

TruePoindexter, on 14 November 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

Vocal minorities tend to oppress silent majorities.

Maybe, but the vocal minority in this case is very likely the group actually funding the game development.

[Pablocampy]

TruePoindexter, on 14 November 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

Because polls have an inherent bias in the way their structured and are meaningless.

Only if they're badly designed.

As for the topic at hand, I am very much adding my vote to the no 3rd person camera party.

Even if it is implemented, splitting a multiplayer user base is pretty well known to be a god awful idea and has led to the death of other games.

Edited by Pablocampy, 14 November 2012 - 12:38 PM.

[Kalthios]

Ravigne you wont be able to see that dash mounted EASY button then,

How about a dash mounted model of your mech on a stick that moves in the same way as your own mech, could help new players, offer it free to new subscribers.

[Brixx]

Like mentioned hundreds of times here already... due to my experience with MW:4 that 3rd Person will lead to Poptarting and if optional split the playerbase. It is an advantage... people will use it then against their likings just to get that little extra bonus. Please no 3rd Person...

[stjobe]

A bit late to the party, but please put me down for a "Please don't do it" as regards third-person view.

It's completely unnecessary, doesn't add anything to the game, and in my opinion detracts from it in a serious way.

We're supposed to be IN the cockpit piloting our 'mechs, not looking down in some isometric third-person fantasy-MMO view.

So again, please don't.

[Dexion]

Zyzyx66, on 14 November 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

It's not like it'd take all that much effort to implement it for the purposes of testing - it can always be removed if the apocalypse strikes.

Honestly? No It cant. Maybe in Closed Beta, yea... But Open Beta? Not a chance. If they implement it at all, it's there for good. mark my words.