3696 replies to this topic

[Vollstrecker]

Soy, on 14 November 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

"Threatening PGI is asinine. All players opinions have a right to be expressed and validated equally." This is the original argument you got upset over. I wonder why. Heh. Do you want the last word or something? You've stretched this tangent across what, 4, 5 pages? Do you need the last word? Go ahead, I've got to get back to enjoying this game and not crying about features that all types of players can choose to utilize or not.

Nope, that isn't the argument that I "got upset" over, I never even saw that comment. I was annoyed at having words put in my mouth that I never said, nor support.

Your antics provided further amusement, but I suppose I'll let you continue stringing together random happenings.

[Tilon]

I've got a brilliant idea.

Instead of breaking the game design with 3PV, which anyone who's played these games in the last two decades knows breaks balance with camera cheats, maybe you should, I don't know,

MAKE A TUTORIAL THAT EXPLAINS ALL THESE THINGS?

Just a thought. Jesus, who's in charge of this project?

[Moiety]

If the problem is actually that people are having trouble getting used to the controls, instead of 3rd person view, PGI could create a very limited practice room. Give it a basic carnival style shooting gallery to teach people how to lead targets, some blank mech hulks at different distances on a shooting range so they could practice shot placement, etc.

No 3rd person.

[CeeKay Boques]

I know some of you haven't heard the podcast, Russ did say he flipped flopped, then said why he changed his mind, that its just impossible for new players (players that were BORN while you and I were excited about Clan and IS paks for MW4, mind you) to get the whole "torso twist" thing.

He thinks that's why players leave, or only try a few rounds.

I'll tell you something this game needs, open, player controlled servers.

You know what I weened my friends in MW4 on? Like this:


"Ok, now move to Nav A. Can you see me? Ok cool. Zoom in with that thing, try to hit me... See the trajectory... right you have to lead... Now stand there.... let me show you a DFA... hehe"

Players/Friends training eachother, with all the time in the world, because every match wasn't a DeathMatch with other players that you can't control.

[Hellcat420]

no 3rd person.

[Klaxor]

no
1    [noh] Show IPA adverb, adjective, noun, plural noes, nos, verb
adverb
1.
(a negative used to express dissent, denial, or refusal, as in response to a question or request)
2.
(used to emphasize or introduce a negative statement): Not a single person came to the party, no, not a one.
3.
not in any degree or manner; not at all (used with a comparative): He is no better.
4.
not a (used before an adjective to convey the opposite of the adjective's meaning): His recovery was no small miracle.

Seriously...don't do it. This isn't MechAssault Online. What's next...power ups?

Edited by Klaxor, 14 November 2012 - 02:36 PM.

[Dagger6T6]

So if the forums are not representative of the fan base then where is this representation coming from? we have these big issues that the "fanbase" has major problem with... ie "I'm getting pugstomped by organized teams" "I want/need a 3rd person view"

So if these are really issues plaguing the fanbase, where is PGI getting this info? Does PGI have a secret lab deep in a dormant volcano... or some far off tropical facility like the island of Dr. Moreau? do they have poor noobs with their eyelids taped open, chained to computers forcing them to pug matches 56 hours straight?

The pug stomping has some validity, but this 3rd person deal came out of left field from the blindside... where is all this data that a 3rd person view is needed coming from?

My guess it is some study read by a bean counter somewhere up higher... and now suddenly 3rd person view equals more revenue.

[PropagandaWar]

PythonCPT, on 14 November 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

If it gets ignored then we will all know to stop wasting our time giving feedback at least.

You forgot wasting our money. FPS must stand for 3rd person shooter these days. Put a video on the load up. Dont you tube it. Build one small map with a general giving them the walk around over comms. I was beta testing a WWII flight MMO (Not Warpaperplanes). After I found out that you could go 3rd person on the same server and they didnt have "realistic" servers I lost interest.

[Damocles69]

over 1000 no votes?


.... no 3rd person

[Agent of Change]

TruePoindexter, on 14 November 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

Forums are not representative of the player base.

You can keep saying that but it won't make it true.

The forum may not be an exact demographic mirror of the player base no, but it is definitely representative of the player base. you cannot tell me you truly believe that 1200 or so users that have voted so far are an insignificant sampling of the MWO player base. You can't be that stupid.

The simple fact of two things means that it should at least be taken seriously:

1. That there are two 20+ page threads about a single topic still going and both were started less than 8 hours ago says that this could be a problem,

2. That no single issue ever raised has garnered such an intense and mostly unified response, hell the best the OB protest got was I think 80 percent against. But of the most active, vocal, and (mostly) thoughtful players of the game (which will be found here on the forums) only 1 in twenty approves of this idea in any form.

Now I'm no expert but I think I'd have to be pretty dumb to think that 90% of the most vocal members of a community (of which they are a statistically relevant sampling) being for or against something would not be likely, in some way, to be indicative of the feelings of at least a majority of current players.

Edited by Agent of Change, 14 November 2012 - 02:39 PM.

[Tilon]

Technoviking, on 14 November 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

I know some of you haven't heard the podcast, Russ did say he flipped flopped, then said why he changed his mind, that its just impossible for new players (players that were BORN while you and I were excited about Clan and IS paks for MW4, mind you) to get the whole "torso twist" thing.

Then maybe the genius should make a tutorial that explains all this, and the HUD, rather than expecting people to absorb it through osmosis.

[tenderloving]

Dear PGI,

It's your game, and ultimately you can do whatever you want with it.

With that said:

Since I started following this game you have sold it to the community as a Mech Sim that was going to be realistic and not an arcade experience.

I'm sure many of the Founders, your "whales," put up their money under the premise that they were getting the closest ever attempt at a mech sim with modern technology.

Despite what you say about using 3rd person as "training wheels" or as a way to ease into the game, anyone with a small amount of foresight can see that this is only the first step on a path that will lead to development resources being moved from the 1st person experience to the 3rd person experience.

You claim that is too hard for people to learn the controls, yet there are ZERO in-game resources to aid new players. Forcing your players to go to the forums or watch videos is bush league at best. Every modern game that's worth its salt has a tutorial. It's expected, and it should have been planned for and developed from the very beginning. Changing the entire scope of your game (which is what this is) because you didn't think about the new player experience FROM THE VERY BEGINNING is pretty sloppy.

This change will introduce a host of new problems that do not exist currently:

You will split the player base
Map design will be affected- how does the camera respond when I am facing away from a cliff I am adjacent to? Does it zoom out? Do I become transparent? These are all balance issues. Every deviation is a potential advantage for the 3rd-person player.

We've been down this road before: You announce a hair-brained idea in some media outlet, and the community brings things back to earth. Hopefully it happens this time as well. With the amount of stuff you guys are STILL missing with each patch, and the lack of key components to make this a complete game, I would say try finishing what you started before you start looking for creative "solutions" to your problem with new players. If that doesn't work, here are a few more solutions that don't require lying to your fanbase:

1. IN GAME TUTORIAL - Piloting, Combat, Mechlab, Map For examples see EVERY OTHER GAME
2. Give new players their own mech
3. Give players a "pilot level" that assists in matchmaking
4. Change the HUD to better visualize the torso configuration <<<< Have you even tried this?

Edited by tenderloving, 14 November 2012 - 02:40 PM.

[syngyne]

I'm personally against a 3rd person gameplay view because I feel it would take away from immersion. It was already pretty jarring being pulled out of the cockpit when you collided with someone. I also share the other concerns of splitting the community, being able to see more than in a 1st person view, etc. that other posters have stated.

As for new players getting lost with the controls, I feel that implementing a third person view is more of a quick fix and does not actually solve the root problem: that the current pilot training is inadequate for easing new players into the game. There is a big difference between passively watching a video and actively running through a hands-on tutorial. There's a reason a lot of concern was being thrown around on the forums about going open beta without a training mission of some sort in place.

I think the HUD indicators for torso orientation could also stand to be reworked. As it is, those little triangles at the top tend to get lost, since they're small and at the edge of the HUD. You have the minimap, but it'd be nice to have something more immediately in the field of view, since when a newbie is getting pounded by fire they're probably going to be focused on the center of their view and not glancing down to check their map.

Something along the lines of what Heavy Gear 2 did might work... for the unfamiliar, there was a floating element on the HUD (it looked like a pair of angle brackets pointing inward, sort of like this: > < ) that indicated which way the Gear's feet were pointed. If you centered your crosshairs between these marks, it meant your torso was pointing straight forward and level. It was simple and unobtrusive, and provided immediate visual feedback as to where you were facing in relation to where you were moving. The only problem was that you could turn far enough to where the indicator was no longer on the screen, though this could be solved by adding more marks at the 30, 60, and 90 degree marks, with the brackets pointing to which way you had to turn your torso to face forwards again (i.e., have a >> at 30 degrees left, >>> at 60, and >>>> at 90).

At any rate, I don't like the idea of having a 3rd person view for this game, for gameplay and immersion reasons, and I don't feel like it's a proper substitute for having an actual tutorial mission. I realize there may be a time/budget constraint that may be preventing a tutorial, but I really hope you consider how valuable implementing one would be.

[Kelvan7]

I vote no on adding a 3rd person view. I agree with many of the reasons already voiced in this thread but for me the greatest concerns are the diversion of developer resources, the perceived changes to the current information warfare system and the possibility of dividing an already small playerbase.

[Bleary]

Will there be enough players to support both 1st person and 3rd person matchmaking?

If the answer is yes, then I like the move. 3rd person lobbies will help get new players into the game (which is always good) and the 1st person lobbies will function similarly to Hardcore Mode in Call of Duty, offering a more uncompromising game experience for veteran players.

If the answer is no, then finding 1st person matches will be more difficult, the playerbase will naturally shift toward the 3rd person lobbies, less development resources will be spent on cracked glass and other in-cockpit special effects, and I will stop playing.

[Scratx]

TruePoindexter, on 14 November 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

Damage indicators give away when you're getting hit by lasers in the back.

But you can't tell what kind of lasers, or whether you're being hit by streaks or ballistics.

[Dakkath]

arkani, on 14 November 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

In 8 hours, stats so far:
1219 member(s) have cast votes)
No (1104 votes [90.57%])



Is this feedback enough?

But Russ also stated that the vocal majority of the forums are about 1000 people, out of the 500K that signed up for this game. I also attribute the 1000 vocal majority to be the hard-core fans.

So realistically. I hate 3rd person view, but this forum thread and poll doesn't do much for them in terms of overall player base influence, as he pretty much stated on that podcast; at least that's how I took it. (and that no offense on his part to me, but more plain facts).

[Weebz]

But ... how will they sell people bobbleheads if we're all using 3rd person ?

[Fencer]

One of the big draws of this game is to be sitting inside the mech. Do not make this switch. There is to much advantage from being able to see whats close behind you and sides. seeing around corners and over hills. Leave this game as a 1st person simulation. Splitting the game into 3rd peson and 1st person drops fruther makes matchmaking harder. This game has alot of fans but its not a high pop game that you can afford to splinter like this. Stay true to your original goals.

[Ice]

No just please no. I HATE the idea of 3rd person view in 'Mech game


edit:

Like many have said already: Make tutorials. And, maybe give all players one free light/medium mech.

Edited by Ice, 14 November 2012 - 03:07 PM.