3696 replies to this topic

[Viper69]

EmptySkull, on 16 November 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

I thought every generation was faster learners than the preceding ones. I'm an older player and I thought the majority of folks here are of the mature nature.

I find age is in no way indicative of intelligence or ability to learn. Young people can get just as set in there ways as an old grizzled codger and vice versa. You have to have enough self discipline to overcome an obstacle and be proud of your accomplishments. Not have something handed to you simply because you cant or wont learn. There is absolutely nothing in life you learn how to do in the 3rd person, nothing at all.

I implore PGI that if they do this to just have it in training areas where no XP and no Cbills are rewarded, along with no repair costs or rearm costs. However it should never be in open matches.

I will however say all it will do is foster dependency on that 3rd person view, instead of learning.

[Ghogiel]

DivineEvil, on 16 November 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

Yeah, sure. You're seeing MWO advert's because you're already playing it. Don't be so naive. People are playing their money to the popular sites, so that these adverts will show up, otherwise they will not. I'm seeing online game ads on different places and dont see them in other. For some portals that's the only way to earn money to sustain their domain in the first place.

It's like some people don't know how targeted ads work. Learn to internet.

[Eisenkopf]

DivineEvil, on 16 November 2012 - 06:51 AM, said:

It took me 3 games to figure out all direction/angle/speed/twist navigation HUD elements and using them to roll on any mech. Anyone, who cannot do that must start thinking a bit. Developers are about to do a lot of useless work  due to those people. 3rd Person view is not needed. Some tutorial mission is. Or Help menu element. And a lot of bug fixing, weapon tweaking, description writing, parametric balancing, etc etc. Don't force PGI to include feature that majority of sane players will ignore.

This is one of the posts that makes me wonder whether it's desirable to become part of this community. So,

• I am unable or unwilling to think, because otherwise I would have "rolled" after less than a handful of battles
  
• what "those people" like me would like is "useless work"
  
• I am apparently not sane, because I consider 3rd person view desirable

And here I was, thinking that WoT players are rude.

Edited by Eisenkopf, 16 November 2012 - 07:11 AM.

[Alois Hammer]

ebea51, on 15 November 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

What i understand from the podcast regarding 3rd person camera is:

New people will have BEGINNER/PRACTICE servers which will ALLOW for 3rd person cameras which they can play to wrap their heads around independant leg/torso movement and then MOVE to the ACTALL servers where they will be locked to 1st person.

THAT is actally a GOOD idea - because it helps newbies to learn to pilot their mech and when they are used to it and ready to join the ranks, they can move on their own accord to dedicated 1st person matches.

Say what? How is "Learn game A, then when you're ready you can start over by learning game B" a good idea?

After they "learn" third-person view, you're going to strip them of their training wheels and throw them into first-person so they can learn the game all over again? Again, how is that a good idea? Taking a game where people complain about the current learning curve, and making them learn it not once but twice?

Call me daft, but how about a detailed interactive tutorial that teaches them how to torso twist in the game they're going to be playing, rather than teaching them a different game (ie, wasting their time learning a play mode they're going to be locked out of) so they can then start learning it again but "the way they're actually going to play it this time?"

TL;DR: How is having to learn something twice "a good idea" compared to learning it once and being done?

[Chrithu]

Eisenkopf, on 16 November 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

What I'm missing from you is any constructive ideas as to how to make the game easier to access for those unwilling to spend hours sucking at it.

About every single page of the thread repeats them But exclusively for you:

Proper single player tutorial spelling out to the detail the basics of the gamemechanics to the new player. Including basic tactics of how to kill or declaw a mech best.

3rd person "puppet" display of your mech in the cockpit showing the current heading of legs and troso relative to each other.

Button to enable a "legs follow torso" mode, so the game practically plays like a shooter.

Every single one of those solutions is BY FAR better to make the game more accessible to those unfamiliar with piloting mechs. Doing all three of them would be the optimum and I truely think is easier done than implementing proper 3rd person, especially if the 3rd person implementation involves either seperated queues or a solution where stuff you wouldn't see in 1st person is also not rendered in third.

Here's another suggestion: Add in splash screens in place of the loading screen that include a detailed explanation of the HUD elements on a screenshot, tipps on flanking tactics and stuff like that.

I stick by my point that 3rd person is not the best not even a good solution to the problem of new players getting used to piloting mechs.

Edited by Jason Parker, 16 November 2012 - 07:12 AM.

[Buckminster]

Eisenkopf, on 16 November 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

Why I should think the game should change and not me? Because I play games for fun. And I have played enough games that successfully followed the old golden rule "Easy to learn, hard to master". If you call that arrogance, well, then I'm guilty as charged. What I'm missing from you is any constructive ideas as to how to make the game easier to access for those unwilling to spend hours sucking at it. But I guess that's not high on your agenda now, is it? Third person view takes off a burden from the pilot, because you see intuitively what's happening, you don't have to look at some readouts while your cockpit is rattled by the latest impact. Ohhh, such is the nature of combat? Sure, but I bet real MechWarriors would have a 3rd person view running on their HUD/augmented reality glasses. And I'm sure that there are many ways to address the "looking around corners" problem, like checking for LOS and blurring or showing only the outlines if there isn't any. But of course, that would still be detrimental of your sacred cow "simulation". Well then, why not have different battle modes like other games have? Random battles for the noobs and loser like me, with 3rd person view, and hardcore modes for the real warriors where you go? By the way, where exactly did I express my unwillingness to learn? Hm, care to quote? I said I don't want to suck big for hours in a game that I play for fun. My real life is interesting and challenging enough, I don't need a game to provide either. Obviously, you have a problem with that attitude. Obviously, I have a problem with you having a problem with that. We should leave it at that, I guess.

I think the real answer to your frustration is a no-threat tutorial mode. Something that sits you in the cockpit, says "this is how you control your mech" and "this is how you read your cockpit" and really clarifies a bunch of the intricacies that make MWO a different game from other shooters. MWO incorporates a sim aspect that a lot of us old-school gamers happy. Sim games were very popular in the 80s and 90s, so those of us that grew up "in the cockpit" feel fairly natural in MWO, and I think it makes for a shallower learning curve.

I've had friends that have just dropped in now that Open Beta has started, and I can see how they wouldn't really want to play any further if they didn't have someone pointing out things like weapon grouping, heat, target lock and torso twisting. But the answer isn't to make those easier, it's to better describe how those functions work.

[OldGrayDonkey]

I'm on the side of no third person view. This is Mechwarrior, not Skyrim. There are reasons for third person, better situational awareness being the biggest one. Real people can turn their heads very quickly to check left/right and even behind if needed to stay up on where people are around them. Third person gives you back some of that awareness that you lose if you go first person. If some games, like Skyrim or many MMO RPG's, where you play a person standing out in the open, third person is the way to go.

But this is Mechwarrior, and we are in a cockpit where the turret turns. We have a limited view of what's happening outside based on the windows and where we're looking. The game right now correctly limits our field of view because we're in the cockpit. We have a map with sensor input to keep track of situational awareness. This is the way it should be.

If anything, allow for a view/zoom mode that puts the entire cockpit view on the screen. Better HUD displays might help as well, for example, colored icons on sides of the main window that indicate where contacts are, or were last detected. I really don't like that contacts just disappear when we lose tracking on them. Put in some real target management. It's all about situational awareness, and warfare requires complex software tracking to manage multiple targets. It's easy to do even today. Lets at least bring contact management into the 21th centrury Earth tech.

And don't forget multi-monitor support, for those who want to spread the view across multiple screens for true cockpit viewing.

[Squidhead Jax]

Jason Parker, on 16 November 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

About every single page of the thread repeats them But exclusively for you:

Proper single player tutorial spelling out to the detail the basics of the gamemechanics to the new player. Including basic tactics of how to kill or declaw a mech best.

3rd person "puppet" display of your mech in the cockpit showing the current heading of legs and troso relative to each other.

Button to enable a "legs follow torso" mode, so the game practically plays like a shooter.

I'd be on board for all of these. Though, with #3, I'm not sure it doesn't also fall into 'encouraging bad habits'. Not that I particularly mind easier targets, I could certainly use the extra kills...

[Corvus Antaka]

Alois Hammer, on 16 November 2012 - 06:53 AM, said:

If you take them at their word, you find yourself in a quandary: Is their word that 1st person is a core pillar of their design their real word, or their "no really, we promise that when we renege on 'core pillar' and add third person anyway, we'll make sure it doesn't muck up first person" their real word?

Talk like a politician, get what you deserve- people not trusting you as far as they could drop-kick you.

Sounds like a job for B------- Betty:
"Mech is walking into a wall. Please turn."
"Still walking into wall. Please look where you're going."
"Still walking into same wall. Reporting to High Command, expect reassignment soon."

+1

People like consistency. 1 reason I got back into this was the promise of first person. I absolutely do not buy the argument that 3rd person will help in anyway....except on a training level where the torso twist is shown/demonstrated. However, even this is just barely passable...what are we saying here? people are now so dumb that they cant walk one way and look another? for real?

Maybe it's time to pull "Idiocracy" out for another reminder of what the future has in store for us if this is really the road we are going down.

Selling this game has nothing to do with 3rd person...I'm convinced the 3rd person demand is simply the gamers demand for more visual perception of his surroundings...and as others noted, it really detracts from the games "moments" the atlas you run into around a corner, the entire current radar system - toss that out the window too.

If PGI really needs to see more money/interaction already well...

Put on some sales - 2-3 mechs for 20 bucks, with the current prices some sales like Tribes:Ascend runs "Daily deal" might be a good idea. people love a good deal.

Add more maps.

Create a tutorial.

balance the weapons.

let the community help you...let us build maps and submit them too you. I bet in 6 months this community could churn out 20-50 maps, and 1 guy could handle testing them through a solid pass through testing server if PGI gave us exact map ground rules and specifications for maps.

We need a chat lobby. a way to create games....like "launch with these 16 people and run a training session"

You know how much easier that would make it to train people to pilot?

Right now it's all just random drops. there is no breathing room, no target practice map.

yes 5 million bucks isn't a huge amount of money. But those of you commenting on this as if PGI needs even more to do this job right - sorry, but plenty of games to date have been developed for far less than 5 million bucks, made far more money, and needed far less than 45 devs.

if PGI is not succeeding or where they want to be with MWO, I'm quite sure that lack of 3rd person in a FIRST PERSON SHOOTER is not the reason.

But maybe we are wrong. Maybe outside this poll, somewhere in happy mushroom land, some PGI exec is sitting on a document heavily researched and polled that says "hey, if we add 3rd person, another 10 million users will join, because people just like 3rd person and are too dumb to walk and chew bubblegum"

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 16 November 2012 - 07:17 AM.

[LennStar]

NO to 3rd person. Than would not be an Mech Warrior Game. It would bring the wrong feeling (and dividing users is... wtf?)

I like what I have read somewhere else (I didnt read all 90 pages so it is included here poss.) and would like to extend the idea:


Make a Solaris Arena.
You earn no C-Bils and no XP there.
Mechs dont have repair costs.
There is a training area with courses, automatic LRM launchers, targets... and a "free move" area.
There are battle arenas.
Players can open and join matches as in many multiplayer game lobbies.
They can choose number of players, password and they can choose which team.
This way you could have not only matches with certain agreed rules (no LRM, all against all), you also could have training sessions (in the training arena) with one trainer in a team and the new players in the other. Or all in one team. In the training arena the players can change the mech they are viewing - so the trainer can explain and the others watch. Or the player moves and the trainer gives comments.

-----

That all aside, I would like to have the option to have a 3rd person view in the spectator mode after i have been killed to watch my team (and the other team) - but then chat has to be turned off.
Thats a version 2.5 thingy, though.

[OldGrayDonkey]

Jason Parker, on 16 November 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

About every single page of the thread repeats them But exclusively for you:

Proper single player tutorial spelling out to the detail the basics of the gamemechanics to the new player. Including basic tactics of how to kill or declaw a mech best.

3rd person "puppet" display of your mech in the cockpit showing the current heading of legs and troso relative to each other.

Button to enable a "legs follow torso" mode, so the game practically plays like a shooter.

Every single one of those solutions is BY FAR better to make the game more accessible to those unfamiliar with piloting mechs. Doing all three of them would be the optimum and I truely think is easier done than implementing proper 3rd person, especially if the 3rd person implementation involves either seperated queues or a solution where stuff you wouldn't see in 1st person is also not rendered in third.

Here's another suggestion: Add in splash screens in place of the loading screen that include a detailed explanation of the HUD elements on a screenshot, tipps on flanking tactics and stuff like that.

I stick by my point that 3rd person is not the best not even a good solution to the problem of new players getting used to piloting mechs.

Those would be good things to add. I don't really even care if they enabled 3rd person for some situations, maybe the trial mechs can be third person while people learn. I don't think 3rd person will be the panacea you think though. Being outside will probably end up distracting you too much and you'll still get womped. I'm not sure what your display will look like either. The HUD will need to be different.

[AndyHill]

Eisenkopf, on 16 November 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

My real life is interesting and challenging enough, I don't need a game to provide either.

That's actually the most amazing thing I've heard for a while, how on Earth do you not want your HOBBY to be INTERESTING? To me gaming is largely a hobby and partly work, but I wouldn't do it if it wasn't challenging and interesting. If the point of 3rd person view is to make the game less interesting and challenging, I would advice against it.

Anyway, the main point is that I don't see how 1st person mode can be such a challenge. The indicators on the HUD are simple, the concept is very simple and simplest of all is to look at the ground when you're moving. From the corner of your eye or relative motion to the enemy you are targeting you can immediately see where you are going. Even if there is a 3rd person mode, it won't help much, because you still have to torso twist and move legs separately and you really can't be looking at your feet when you're engaging an enemy anyway.

What this game needs desperately is instructions, tutorials and a way to get used to the controls outside of combat.

[Sarevos]

Alex Wolfe, on 15 November 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

What the hell? Have a few dozen rounds in trials, see how "accessible" they are. Even if you know how to drive . If it's accessibility you want, before you turn your backs on 90% of the community, how about fixing this first?



No words.

the most amazing thing ive ever seen lol

[Eisenkopf]

Jason Parker, on 16 November 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

About every single page of the thread repeats them But exclusively for you:

Proper single player tutorial spelling out to the detail the basics of the gamemechanics to the new player. Including basic tactics of how to kill or declaw a mech best.

3rd person "puppet" display of your mech in the cockpit showing the current heading of legs and troso relative to each other.

Button to enable a "legs follow torso" mode, so the game practically plays like a shooter.

Every single one of those solutions is BY FAR better to make the game more accessible to those unfamiliar with piloting mechs. Doing all three of them would be the optimum and I truely think is easier done than implementing proper 3rd person, especially if the 3rd person implementation involves either seperated queues or a solution where stuff you wouldn't see in 1st person is also not rendered in third.

Here's another suggestion: Add in splash screens in place of the loading screen that include a detailed explanation of the HUD elements on a screenshot, tipps on flanking tactics and stuff like that.

I stick by my point that 3rd person is not the best not even a good solution to the problem of new players getting used to piloting mechs.

I am so very sorry that I did not wade through all the ***** to find the gems! I mean, come on, another post above just shows what I mean: So because I would like to have third person view, because I feel the current cockpit-view only too difficult, I apparently want everything in life being handed to me. And I lack self discipline, and there was somethign about "being proud of your accomplishments". Some people take this very seriously, I'm beginning to understand.

I am indeed thankful that you pointed out the relevant parts for me again. However, I can only repeat: I don't need more information, I don't need tactics 101 (believe it or not, I am quite successful in other games), I don't need another display, and I don't want to lose the ability to rotate my torso independently from the legs. I simply want a visual interface that gives me more information with less cluttering and less load - 3rd person view. You don't have to like it and you can offer good arguments against it, but a lot of posters here are beyond dislike.

[S0RG]

Fully against 3rd person view for the ton of already given reasons, destroying immersive gameplay being the first.
What i think could be useful:
Rearview camera on the HUD. It should be ton(s) weighting, slot-taking, totally optional, destroyable. And, if you wanna help newbies, perhaps some or all trial 'mechs should have it.

[JukiMax]

I believe that adding a 3rd person view would be a complete disaster and totally ruin the game.

[Eisenkopf]

Buckminster, on 16 November 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

I think the real answer to your frustration is a no-threat tutorial mode. Something that sits you in the cockpit, says "this is how you control your mech" and "this is how you read your cockpit" and really clarifies a bunch of the intricacies that make MWO a different game from other shooters. MWO incorporates a sim aspect that a lot of us old-school gamers happy. Sim games were very popular in the 80s and 90s, so those of us that grew up "in the cockpit" feel fairly natural in MWO, and I think it makes for a shallower learning curve. I've had friends that have just dropped in now that Open Beta has started, and I can see how they wouldn't really want to play any further if they didn't have someone pointing out things like weapon grouping, heat, target lock and torso twisting. But the answer isn't to make those easier, it's to better describe how those functions work.

I do remember those games, because I played them. Oh, and as I have also pointed out, core elements of BT like heat and torso twist etc. are familiar to me since FASA sold the first Basic Set. But maybe I'm not in the mood anymore for "real" simulators, maybe I can't be bothered anymore. Who knows. Whatever the reaons, it's none of your concern or business. That's why I find the attitude displayed in this thread so appalling. A simple "No, because ABC" is not enough, it has to be "No, because otherwise we cannot seperate the wheat from the chaff, and by the way, I'm wheat, and everyone who proposes or likes 3rd person view, is chaff."

[Kraven Kor]

Pakundo, on 16 November 2012 - 05:41 AM, said:

This near unanimous-hate for 3rd person view is really just sad.
3rd person view as an option can't detract from immersiveness all that much, since you can always choose to remain in 1st person, but having it will be a big plus for people (yes, like me), who loved playing MechWarrior games with 3rd person, who loved watching their mechs as they piloted them.

I'll agree that 3rd person view might change gameplay a bit, but how can it really be bad at all?

And if my arguments fail to convince anyone, think about it this way:
You are all saying no to a feature that I'd like to have for reasons that're... Debatable at best.
It wouldn't harm you, but it'd be a big plus for people like me.

I don't think this is debatable.

3rd Person will drastically change gameplay. Their stated reasons to not add 3rd Person even mentioned the desire to avoid the "problems" of previous MW games - "Pop-tarting" and shooting around corners and such.

This is not debatable.

Again, I won't quit over 3rd Person View, but PGI sold this game to us as an online "Mechwarrior Sim" and swore up and down it would be 1st Person only, etc.

[HRR Mary]

Eisenkopf, on 16 November 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

[...] I simply want a visual interface that gives me more information with less cluttering and less load - 3rd person view. You don't have to like it and you can offer good arguments against it, but a lot of posters here are beyond dislike.

Pardon me, but that's exactly what most posters are against : Having a different view with "More information". It gives you an unfair advantage. This game has a constraint, and you just want to lift it.

[Slaytronic]

if they do this it needs to be separate from the normal game match making but seeing as how they cannot get match making straight anyways this will be a epic fail. and if they do, do this thanx for wasting my money and time on a game i love ********