87 replies to this topic

[Clay Pigeon]

PGI please keep working on the next patch, unless you happen to have a bored intern that can compile stats and can't help with the patch.

[RedHairDave]

Lorcan Lladd, on 15 November 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

It's everyone else's fault, actually.
But it would appear too conceited to lay all blame on noncommunicating and uncooperative team mates as opposed to premades and pugs on voice channels.

I don't care about appearances, however, and as such I feel perfectly comfortable in claiming that scrubs, Rambos, AFKs, disconnects and sucide farmers are ruining my matches to no fault of my own.

then why dont they ruin my pugging games?

when the only thing staying consistent through all your matches is you, does that not make you the only thing worth worrying about

Edited by RedHairDave, 15 November 2012 - 03:45 PM.

[Hexcaliber]

This idea some hold that playing in a premade is a measure of ability marking a player as being better than a pugger is bollocks and complete fantasy. Clearly, given the rubbish spouted from some of the players here who play in premades, any **** can find a group.

Most of you, the majority, like most puggers, are nothing more than average gamers. You see, premade, pug, it doesn't matter, there are good, bad, and average in each group, and preferring play in one, doesn't make you a better gamer than someone who prefers the other.

You should enjoy greater success, premade V pug, it’s a given, but nothing to gloat about, and nothing to do with the prowess of members of the group. Because, assuming you have an ounce of common sense, the real reasons why are obvious. It has less to do with individual player ability, and much more to do with coordination and control.

Oh and for what it’s worth, having led several clans in the past, it is my experience that many who only play in premade groups are happy to disappear into the background like sheep; preferring to be led by others who really do have a clue.

[RedHairDave]

Hexcaliber, on 15 November 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

This idea some hold that playing in a premade is a measure of ability marking a player as being better than a pugger is bollocks and complete fantasy. Clearly, given the rubbish spouted from some of the players here who play in premades, any **** can find a group.

Most of you, the majority, like most puggers, are nothing more than average gamers. You see, premade, pug, it doesn't matter, there are good, bad, and average in each group, and preferring play in one, doesn't make you a better gamer than someone who prefers the other.

You should enjoy greater success, premade V pug, it’s a given, but nothing to gloat about, and nothing to do with the prowess of members of the group. Because, assuming you have an ounce of common sense, the real reasons why are obvious. It has less to do with individual player ability, and much more to do with coordination and control.

Oh and for what it’s worth, having led several clans in the past, it is my experience that many who only play in premade groups are happy to disappear into the background like sheep; preferring to be led by others who really do have a clue.

this game is very little about the "skill" of the player, there is a lowish celing, its about the ability to work together. 100% team work.

[Taryys]

I agree completely.
On a good day I am, at best average, on a bad day I am a complete suiciding newb and it saddens me.
I just happen to have decent people to play with to make me not look so bad and to allow me to make mistakes and attempt to recover from it without causing us a loss. PUGs do not have this luxury.

Hexcaliber, on 15 November 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:

This idea some hold that playing in a premade is a measure of ability marking a player as being better than a pugger is bollocks and complete fantasy. Clearly, given the rubbish spouted from some of the players here who play in premades, any **** can find a group.

[Sevaradan]

Can we limit pugs to 1 per side instead? Having to run with 4 of them running in circles shooting snow, suiciding etc is un-fun.

[Greyfyl]

Teralitha, on 15 November 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

No, it wasnt happening too frequently. What was REALLY happening was one team played really dumb, and the other played really smart, and dominated the dumby team. And the dumby team assumed they lost to a premade. Most premade accusations were ASSUMED. No one wants to admit getting butt ***** by another random team, they prefer to blame it on premades.

You are so off base it's not even funny.Do I think Garth lied about the numbers? I have no idea. Do I think it's possible that he lied - of course it's possible. Do any of you actually work in the real world, ever met a salesman? Seriously, I find it appalling that there could be this many people in one place that actually believe that there is no possibility that he would lie.

Secondly - what time of the day did he run this little test? I can believe that he got the numbers he stated if he did the test in the morning or early afternoon. I saw basically the same results the first week of open beta during the day - and I said as much right away. If he played in the evening then I call shenanigans. I played premades, I have a friends list and contrary to what most of you think, even though I mostly do pugs, I am smart enough to open TS and join the server and see who's playing.

The first week of beta I saw almost every other game against a premade that I could VERIFY. I'm not talking about looking at the 8-0 score and screaming premade. I'm talking about clans posting their website before the match or seeing a GROUP of players that are on my friends list or seeing people that I know are in a TS channel together. It's not rocket science.

The secondary problem is that the matching system as it stands seems like it goes out of it's way to put as many players in trial mechs up against a team of founders in full custom mechs. Many of us that are adamantly against premades vs pugs admitted that the pug vs premade issue is simply a part of the bigger issue of just bad (no) matchmaking. We emplored the community to use restraint in order to not drive off new players and you all basically said 'screw the newbies, I can't play if I'm not in a group'.

There were so many things that PGI could have done, but they did nothing. To be honest I will probably go back to premades myself pretty soon, there is no hope of pugging being fun anywhere in the near future, and I don't think this game will last to much longer so I might as well newbstomp as well.

Edited by Greyfyl, 15 November 2012 - 04:37 PM.

[Sevaradan]

Greyfyl, on 15 November 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

I don't think this game will last to much longer so I might as well newbstomp as well.

[Greyfyl]

Sevaradan, on 15 November 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

The funny thing is I've been to the dark side.

[Ghogiel]

Right now the stats would be meaningless. We'd need them from closed beta when it was actually annoying.

[Greyfyl]

Ghogiel, on 15 November 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

Right now the stats would be meaningless. We'd need them from closed beta when it was actually annoying.

The matchmaking is still very annoying to say the least. I played on Tuesday night and the matches were all ridiculously lopsided, in two and a half hours I had 0 game where the losing team had more than 2 kills.

I know at least 5 or 6 games had 4 man premades, but I honestly didn't care enough to check TS or ask. But premades or not, the games were not fun (even the ones in which I had premades on my side).

[Broceratops]

Greyfyl, on 15 November 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

The matchmaking is still very annoying to say the least. I played on Tuesday night and the matches were all ridiculously lopsided, in two and a half hours I had 0 game where the losing team had more than 2 kills.

I know at least 5 or 6 games had 4 man premades, but I honestly didn't care enough to check TS or ask. But premades or not, the games were not fun (even the ones in which I had premades on my side).

this has always been the case, even when premades with players of decent skill play each other. its a failing of the maps and game size. once one side gets a 1-2 kill advantage, its just a big big hill to climb back from and usually snowballs.

[Greyfyl]

Broceratops, on 15 November 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

this has always been the case, even when premades with players of decent skill play each other. its a failing of the maps and game size. once one side gets a 1-2 kill advantage, its just a big big hill to climb back from and usually snowballs.

I've seen plenty of games in which the losing team ends up with 5 or more kills. But for that to happen the teams have to be semi-close as far as experienced players and trial mechs. I played about 4 hours on the Wednesday morning after open beta started and almost every game was balanced. I don't know how, I don't know why, but almost every game had roughly the same number of founders per side and the same number of trial mechs.

[Bogus]

Greyfyl, on 15 November 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

The first week of beta I saw almost every other game against a premade that I could VERIFY. I'm not talking about looking at the 8-0 score and screaming premade. I'm talking about clans posting their website before the match or seeing a GROUP of players that are on my friends list or seeing people that I know are in a TS channel together. It's not rocket science.

Likewise, I play mostly evenings US and between OB and phase 1 I'd say roughly one in six games had the opposing team self-identify as a clan, and another 1-2 were obviously using predetermined builds, i.e. couple of lagscouts and the entire rest of the team in LRM boats. The handful of times I've played in the afternoons I went nearly undefeated and I'm hardly a good player. So, shenanigans indeed.

Stats would be nice, but at this point wouldn't really matter unless they all came from before phase 1 because even the most diehard anti-premades have to admit that gameplay has greatly improved since then.

[Ghogiel]

Greyfyl, on 15 November 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

The matchmaking is still very annoying to say the least. I played on Tuesday night and the matches were all ridiculously lopsided, in two and a half hours I had 0 game where the losing team had more than 2 kills.

I know at least 5 or 6 games had 4 man premades, but I honestly didn't care enough to check TS or ask. But premades or not, the games were not fun (even the ones in which I had premades on my side).

What you just said isn't selling me on the idea it's these premades still ruining the game experience.

At least like in closed beta. Where it really did seem like a 1/5 of pug games were stacked against an 8man premade. Now we have other issues... namely since there are no wipes people are AFK grinding for their cbills now and there is a fairly substantial influx of terrible players to pad out the losses. And most premades aren't trying to sync drop so even if you do get a premade it's just 4 man, which I ENJOY playing as a pug, I like a challenge... unlike the 8man premade waste of time games

Edited by Ghogiel, 15 November 2012 - 05:39 PM.

[shintakie]

Sandpit, on 15 November 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

Garth posted on this. The ones screaming against premies either called him a liar, ignored his post on it, or just completely disregarded it as not valid.

Sandpit, on 15 November 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

They did solve this by testing it and posting the results. Garth gave you the information you're talking about. 20 drops 0 premies.
Most people arguing against premies just ignored it or called him a liar outright.
Just because I assume the other side is a premie doesn't make it a premie. Just because I got beat bad doesn't mean the other side was a premie. You were shown it to be nowhere near as rampant as everyone wanted to think it was you just choose to ignore it.

Im quotin you twice because you were wrong twice.

Garths numbers were purely anecdotal. He didn't post actual facts and figures. He said he went a night of about 20 drops and didn't see a premade. This is an awful way to measure it because anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal. A single persons experience which is countered by another persons experience (in this case many persons experiences).

He then went on to say they would gather the data and eventually release it to all of us so we had more than his anecdotal evidence to go off of. This never happened.

If you can't tell the difference between anecdotal and empirical evidence then I'm afraid there's nothin else I can do for you.

[Kell Draygo]

shintakie, on 15 November 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

Im quotin you twice because you were wrong twice.

Garths numbers were purely anecdotal. He didn't post actual facts and figures. He said he went a night of about 20 drops and didn't see a premade. This is an awful way to measure it because anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal. A single persons experience which is countered by another persons experience (in this case many persons experiences).

He then went on to say they would gather the data and eventually release it to all of us so we had more than his anecdotal evidence to go off of. This never happened.

If you can't tell the difference between anecdotal and empirical evidence then I'm afraid there's nothin else I can do for you.

[redacted] in his eyes, devs can do no wrong and everything they say is sacrosanct. Twenty games that Garth gives as evidence obviously shows that everyone else is wrong. Especially when in their personal experience, they've had opponents identifying themselves as premades for them.

Edited by Chris K, 15 November 2012 - 07:36 PM.
offensive

[Sandpit]

shintakie, on 15 November 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

Im quotin you twice because you were wrong twice.

Garths numbers were purely anecdotal. He didn't post actual facts and figures. He said he went a night of about 20 drops and didn't see a premade. This is an awful way to measure it because anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal. A single persons experience which is countered by another persons experience (in this case many persons experiences).

He then went on to say they would gather the data and eventually release it to all of us so we had more than his anecdotal evidence to go off of. This never happened.

If you can't tell the difference between anecdotal and empirical evidence then I'm afraid there's nothin else I can do for you.

My point being that's the closest you have to empirical data. Everyone else is complete and total assumption. Again I point out that I'm sure the devs would lie and ruin the game and drive it into the ground instead of fix a huge lopsided system like what you describe because I'm sure they'd love to be looking for work again as opposed to being gainfully employed like they are now.
My entire point was to show that everyone running around screaming premie this and premie that are working on even less data than what Garth posted. If his is anecdotal then everyone else's is irrelevant at best.

Kell Draygo, on 15 November 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

He's your typical dev brownoser because in his eyes, devs can do no wrong and everything they say is sacrosanct. Twenty games that Garth gives as evidence obviously shows that everyone else is wrong. Especially when in their personal experience, they've had opponents identifying themselves as premades for them.

And you sir are a troll that offered nothing to this conversation. You should really research someone's post before resorting to name calling and being a dbag. I've argued against quite a few things the devs are doing or not doing that I feel is a mistake. I say good day to you now sir as you are on my ignore list

[Kell Draygo]

Typical arrogance by a premade who thinks his way is the best way to play and would say anything to keep the pugstomp going. Quite sad. It's people like him that makes this game worse and worse, burying their heads in the sand like an ostrich, pretending that there is no problem.

Edited by Chris K, 15 November 2012 - 07:32 PM.
offensive

[Sevaradan]

Kell Draygo, on 15 November 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

Typical arrogance by a premade douche who thinks his way is the best way to play and would say anything to keep the pugstomp going. Quite sad. It's people like him that makes this game worse and worse, burying their heads in the sand like an ostrich, pretending that there is no problem.

Spoken like an arrogant puggling who thinks his way is the best way to play. Quite sad. It's people like him that makes this game worse and worse, burying their heads in the sand like an ostrich, pretending its not their fault they loose games blaming the evil premades.