87 replies to this topic

[DivideByZer0]

I've had a bit of an experiment going for a few games now:

Before match, tell teammates to say something like
"SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS" when the game starts.
Then when game starts say "GO TEAM COBRA"

Watch enemy team cower in fear of premade that doesnt exist.
Profit.

Like i said , its more of a psycological experiment than anything.

[Icebound]

Vermaxx, on 15 November 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

Garth also said that true DHS let him kill an atlas in 3 seconds. Presumably using weapons with about a 3 second recycle time.

Meaning he was able to (at ABSOLUTE LONGEST) two shot an Atlas in a Jenner. So far I haven't heard anyone come here and report having replicated that.

Yeah I was skeptical about that as well. On my Jenner-F with 6 medium lasers I can't 2-shot the back of an Atlas, even if it's a trial mech. Maybe he has a special dual gauss Jenner, which would explain why they are taking so long to nerf them.

[Kell Draygo]

Sevaradan, on 15 November 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Spoken like an arrogant puggling who thinks his way is the best way to play. Quite sad. It's people like him that makes this game worse and worse, burying their heads in the sand like an ostrich, pretending its not their fault they loose games blaming the evil premades.

Quite funny, pugs, unlike premades, have never said that premades shouldn't exist. On the contrary though, premades wishes for status quo since you get free C-Bills and ez-mode. It's no surprise people do not like to join your 'hardcoreness'.

[Sevaradan]

Actually, there's been a number of posts where pugglings have asked to have grouping disabled till they were separated

[shintakie]

Sandpit, on 15 November 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

My point being that's the closest you have to empirical data. Everyone else is complete and total assumption. Again I point out that I'm sure the devs would lie and ruin the game and drive it into the ground instead of fix a huge lopsided system like what you describe because I'm sure they'd love to be looking for work again as opposed to being gainfully employed like they are now.
My entire point was to show that everyone running around screaming premie this and premie that are working on even less data than what Garth posted. If his is anecdotal then everyone else's is irrelevant at best.

That isnt how empirical data works though? Sayin his is closer to empirical data is an outright misunderstandin of how empirical data works. Its anecdotal evidence among the thousands of other posts containin nothin but anecdotal evidence. Until they release data (actual data, not the oh I didnt see a premade one night data), this will continue to be an issue.

[tvih]

If they wanted to prevent all the premade or not debate, they could've just added indicators for grouped players like what WoT has. Then all you'd need to do is look at the players list to know how many are in a group. Less relevant now that you don't get 8-player premades against 8-player pugs anymore, but still relevant.

[Sandpit]

shintakie, on 15 November 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

That isnt how empirical data works though? Sayin his is closer to empirical data is an outright misunderstandin of how empirical data works. Its anecdotal evidence among the thousands of other posts containin nothin but anecdotal evidence. Until they release data (actual data, not the oh I didnt see a premade one night data), this will continue to be an issue.

No, it's not. Your sampling isn't accurate. He has hard data as in numbers and looking at the information that isn't based on a random sample.

You stop 20 people in front of a store and ask them how much money they spent as a survey.
They give you answers and you base statistical data on this and draw a conclusion on good faith that you get honest answers and the data is accurate. You come up with a number of 200 spent between the 20 people you surveyed

The store manager reviews 20 receipts and comes up with a number of 75 spent between the 20 people

Which data is more accurate?

Neither is a large enough sample size to get the median or average but the store manager has more accurate data to base an assumption on.

I'm not a statistician but I do have a working knowledge of how statistics work and how to get accurate information regarding this. My entire point is that we simply don't have the data to say "Premies are stomping pugs"

[shintakie]

Sandpit, on 15 November 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

No, it's not. Your sampling isn't accurate. He has hard data as in numbers and looking at the information that isn't based on a random sample.

You stop 20 people in front of a store and ask them how much money they spent as a survey.
They give you answers and you base statistical data on this and draw a conclusion on good faith that you get honest answers and the data is accurate. You come up with a number of 200 spent between the 20 people you surveyed

The store manager reviews 20 receipts and comes up with a number of 75 spent between the 20 people

Which data is more accurate?

Neither is a large enough sample size to get the median or average but the store manager has more accurate data to base an assumption on.

I'm not a statistician but I do have a working knowledge of how statistics work and how to get accurate information regarding this. My entire point is that we simply don't have the data to say "Premies are stomping pugs"

That is not what he did though. He didn't look at a bunch of data and add it to his data. He looked at a night of his own playin and said "Yep, no premades." The only difference between his data and ours is he knows (maybe?) whether somethin actually is a premade or not.

[Copious]

shintakie, on 15 November 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

That is not what he did though. He didn't look at a bunch of data and add it to his data. He looked at a night of his own playin and said "Yep, no premades." The only difference between his data and ours is he knows (maybe?) whether somethin actually is a premade or not.

Exactly. He knows, and everyone else is for the most part assuming.

Go look at the public TS server. Now assume ten times as many people are on private servers. Unless there are only 5K people playing this game, the number of premades is a tiny fraction of the total playerbase. If there are only 5K people playing this game, we're screwed anyways.

[Darian DelFord]

Chris K, on 15 November 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

Guys, we always encourage you to give us your feedback but please keep it civil and on topic!

Thank you

Any help on my topic by chance? )

[Sandpit]

Sandpit, on 15 November 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

Neither is a large enough sample size to get the median or average but the store manager has more accurate data to base an assumption on.

shintakie, on 15 November 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

That is not what he did though. He didn't look at a bunch of data and add it to his data. He looked at a night of his own playin and said "Yep, no premades." The only difference between his data and ours is he knows (maybe?) whether somethin actually is a premade or not.

Again that's why I said neither was good to use as an accurate sample.
The entire point is that players running around screaming they got beat by a premie as a pug doesn't make it any more true.
The basis of it all is this:
Some players get rolled which leads to a bad situation because then they lose interest in the game. This is bad all the way around. It will cause the game to be less successful which means no more MWO

We all pretty much agree on this point. Where the differences come in (at least in this particular case) is whether it's a premie stomping pugs issue. It's not

Dropping in a team and on voip isn't what's causing this. New players dropping against experienced players (regardless of whether they're pug or premie) is the core issue. Removing premies to a separate cue isn't going to solve the problem. Having the new players drop against other new players is what will solve this. Having them drop with other new players for xx amount of games or time will allow them to learn the game against others at their skill level while at the some time learn how to play a bit. Then when they graduate from that they're at least semi-ready to play with the big boys so to speak.

It just really gets old to get on here and in game day after day and hear about how horrible I am because I have made some friends and enjoy dropping into games with them.

Darian DelFord, on 15 November 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

Any help on my topic by chance? )

I'm not sure the mods would even have access to that data. They are players just like we are although they might have faster and easier access to the devs

[Broceratops]

well my exp is that i win about 50% of my games as a pug and pretty close to 100% in a 4 man. i dont think this is unusual. so yeah its not exactly fair or challenging, or fun for anybody involved.

[Faldrin]

Vermaxx, on 15 November 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

Garth also said that true DHS let him kill an atlas in 3 seconds. Presumably using weapons with about a 3 second recycle time.

Meaning he was able to (at ABSOLUTE LONGEST) two shot an Atlas in a Jenner. So far I haven't heard anyone come here and report having replicated that.

you sure it was a jenner as the aws-8q can fit 6 large lasers with DHS XL engine and could in theory fire 5 alphas before over heating. 6 large laser hitting any mech is a lot of hurt with some one who can kinda aim. With the heatsinks as they are now I can get of 4 alphas with 5 large laser before over heating, full DHS would be abit over power for full energy builds with how aiming works now.

[Lefty Lucy]

Broceratops, on 15 November 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

well my exp is that i win about 50% of my games as a pug and pretty close to 100% in a 4 man. i dont think this is unusual. so yeah its not exactly fair or challenging, or fun for anybody involved.

I was like the worst PUGboss ever when I dropped with you earlier

[Ghogiel]

DivideByZer0, on 15 November 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

I've had a bit of an experiment going for a few games now:

Before match, tell teammates to say something like
"SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS" when the game starts.
Then when game starts say "GO TEAM COBRA"

Watch enemy team cower in fear of premade that doesnt exist.
Profit.

Like i said , its more of a psycological experiment than anything.

I pretended I was a goon and squawked in the chat once. They ended up being a 4man premade, and saw red and recklessly tried to focus me, While I ran around in 90kph hunchy leading them around the whole game. Was kinda funny because they got ganked by the pubs in the end.

[Darian DelFord]

Sandpit, on 15 November 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

I'm not sure the mods would even have access to that data. They are players just like we are although they might have faster and easier access to the devs

Aye it was the Dev part I was hoping for

[RedHairDave]

Sandpit, on 15 November 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

Again that's why I said neither was good to use as an accurate sample.
The entire point is that players running around screaming they got beat by a premie as a pug doesn't make it any more true.
The basis of it all is this:
Some players get rolled which leads to a bad situation because then they lose interest in the game. This is bad all the way around. It will cause the game to be less successful which means no more MWO

We all pretty much agree on this point. Where the differences come in (at least in this particular case) is whether it's a premie stomping pugs issue. It's not

Dropping in a team and on voip isn't what's causing this. New players dropping against experienced players (regardless of whether they're pug or premie) is the core issue. Removing premies to a separate cue isn't going to solve the problem. Having the new players drop against other new players is what will solve this. Having them drop with other new players for xx amount of games or time will allow them to learn the game against others at their skill level while at the some time learn how to play a bit. Then when they graduate from that they're at least semi-ready to play with the big boys so to speak.

It just really gets old to get on here and in game day after day and hear about how horrible I am because I have made some friends and enjoy dropping into games with them.


I'm not sure the mods would even have access to that data. They are players just like we are although they might have faster and easier access to the devs

i have to kinda disagree, if only new players played together, they would all have the same terrible habbits, at least when they drop with experienced players they can figure out stuff like, cover is almost never a good idea, working together is more important than any other single factor, sharing damage is likely second, focus fire is 3rd tied with spreading damage on yourself. somewhere around 15th is player skill, after if there was coffee this moring, and just before potato

when i go in and see puggers taking cover, then poking out to shoot again, i just laugh and kill their whole team while they do nothing. taking cover is only a good idea when your the only target, if anyone on your team is getting shot, you need to be in the fight, or you have already lost. so many times, i will shoot 1 LL at a target and they take cover, then i start pounding another target, its dies before the guy that took cover comes out again, what did that accomplish my dps didnt drop when you took cover, i was still taking HP from your team, then you come out and i kill you to.

i wonder if this comes from WOT where cover is hyper important, or all the chest high wall FPS games.

this game isnt like that, every battle comes down to 8 HP pools VS 8 HP pools. if you take cover but your HP pool as a team is going down, you are helping the other team win.

Edited by RedHairDave, 16 November 2012 - 06:31 AM.

[Lorcan Lladd]

RedHairDave, on 15 November 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

then why dont they ruin my pugging games?

when the only thing staying consistent through all your matches is you, does that not make you the only thing worth worrying about

You know full well that you usually drop with three other people from your clan/mercenary corp, which makes it much easier to get the puggers on board - not that your disposition and ability to lead them don't make a difference, of course; they assuredly do.

But I've lost count of how many times a pug team I was a part of has been defeated just because the rest of the puggers didn't listen, either to me or whomever else tried to direct them.
Even when specifically addressed, some just ignored any instructions and did whatever they felt like.

Capture the enemy base which lies within a hundred meters from our current position?
No, I think we'll just split up and chase four distinct enemy 'Mechs simultaneously!

Edited by Lorcan Lladd, 16 November 2012 - 08:16 AM.

[Sandpit]

RedHairDave, on 16 November 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

i have to kinda disagree, if only new players played together, they would all have the same terrible habbits, at least when they drop with experienced players they can figure out stuff like, cover is almost never a good idea, working together is more important than any other single factor, sharing damage is likely second, focus fire is 3rd tied with spreading damage on yourself. somewhere around 15th is player skill, after if there was coffee this moring, and just before potato

when i go in and see puggers taking cover, then poking out to shoot again, i just laugh and kill their whole team while they do nothing. taking cover is only a good idea when your the only target, if anyone on your team is getting shot, you need to be in the fight, or you have already lost. so many times, i will shoot 1 LL at a target and they take cover, then i start pounding another target, its dies before the guy that took cover comes out again, what did that accomplish my dps didnt drop when you took cover, i was still taking HP from your team, then you come out and i kill you to.

i wonder if this comes from WOT where cover is hyper important, or all the chest high wall FPS games.

this game isnt like that, every battle comes down to 8 HP pools VS 8 HP pools. if you take cover but your HP pool as a team is going down, you are helping the other team win.

It's not about getting them to "vet" status at that point though. It's about getting them to enjoy the game and see how much fun it can be. Once they're hooked and have a few games under their belt and have a basic understanding of how to pilot mechs they won't do as poorly against experienced players and will have a more enjoyable experience overall. It shouldn't be about "making them better" it should be about letting the enjoy the game without getting stomped. Once they see that the game can be competitive and ELO MM is implemented they will have more fun and play more often and retain more new players overall in my opinion

[Valder]

Chris K, on 15 November 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

Guys, we always encourage you to give us your feedback but please keep it civil and on topic!

Thank you

Too bad your employers wont give us the feedback requested. I'd like to know hard numbers on this as well.