2926 replies to this topic

[CyBerkut]

StORmTrAin, on 27 January 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

I'm telling you that without a shadow of a doubt 1st person was unpopular in MW4 and those players seldom performed better than "average".

1st Person View was the only view allowed in the NBT (NetBattleTech) league. I'd say it was pretty popular there.

As for comparing players... well, you are actually making our point. If 3rd Person View players can be said to be better on average, one has to logically suspect that there is an advantage being gained by it's use.

Quote

First person players were a minority.

Have you got a source for statistics on that?

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I'm betting that you never played MW4, or piloted a mech in 3rd person mode in your life. And I'll say that about the majority of the folks whining now about switching to 3rd person. The majority of ones complaining now about 3rd person have never tried it.

I played MW4 in 3rd person in another league for awhile. My impressions were quite different than yours. The players weren't noticeably 'better', and the game play was not as interesting. Pilots using 3rd Person View advantages to pop tart, and look around/over obstructions without risk of taking damage was just lame. Playing in a 1st Person View league was far more interesting.

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You don't hear any of the 3rd person players crying or whining because 1st person sucks. That's because the majority of those ones are the better pilots and truly love MW and will play the game regardless.

I've seen them whining in these forums. As for what the better pilots played, you're entitled to your opinion, but that is all it is. Hopefully, they will play MWO regardless.

[BerryChunks]

Rejarial Galatan, on 06 January 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

Lynx, the bottom line is covered in my post above yours. This game was touted before we knew how it 'runs/plays' to be 100% out of the box FIRST PERSON ONLY. Paul Inouye our LEAD DESIGNER, speaking as such, and under the guise of a PGI employee in GOOD STANDING and duly authorized to make such a statement, says in no uncertain terms, that 3rd person POV breaks a KEY DESIGN PILLAR ON MANY LEVELS. To do anything less than this, and include 3rd PPOV would irrevocably alter the game at its most fundamental level, add in a very unneeded level of coding difficulty to the Dev's when we have so many more things that are in need of desperate attention, and, in no uncertain terms, turn PGI into a company that we cannot trust as players, because they break key design pillars and openly flip flop positions and lie to us. That alone will kill the game. So many things can be fixed <that causes this SUPPOSED NEED> for 3rd PPOV by adding in a PROPER, PLAYABLE, FORCED Tutorial.

Exactly. It'd be like removing the Fog Of War from games like Starcraft 2. It breaks the game's design and purpose.

[Cannibal Cat]

I'd love 3rd person view for taking screen shots, but otherwise I can't see myself using it for actual game play.

If other players want to use 3rd person, then they are more than welcome to as far as I'm concerned.

[BerryChunks]

Cannibal Cat, on 27 January 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

I'd love 3rd person view for taking screen shots, but otherwise I can't see myself using it for actual game play.

If other players want to use 3rd person, then they are more than welcome to as far as I'm concerned.

Cannibal Cat, on 27 January 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

I'd love 3rd person view for taking screen shots, but otherwise I can't see myself using it for actual game play.

If other players want to use 3rd person, then they are more than welcome to as far as I'm concerned.

So that they can see you sneaking up on them from around a corner and blast you with dual AC20 as you come out, instead of being unaware that you're there, while you aren't able to get the same advantage? herpherpherp

[Neput Z34]

Driving a Mech in anythig other first person, detracts for the experience of driving that chassis.

Third person viewnot only brakes the immersion but the game balance too, this not only gives every one who uses 3rd person view to see over the hills and around conners.

This gives Assault mechs a massive boost in situational awareness, considering how poor is their twist/ turn rates are and makes them less relian on others for protection against Light mechs.

If 3rd person view is implemeted in anythig other then spectator mode, in an arena/ Solaris type of "match" it runs a risk of turning MWO in Assault only Mechs Online.

[Rejarial Galatan]

StORmTrAin, on 27 January 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

<snip>

Got something to say to your post. You do know what the titles of these games are called right? mech WARRIOR. we are PILOTS of these massive war machines, sitting in the cockpit's of these mechs, not sitting in some office somewhere piloting them by remote. Every single source book, every story, every book has the pilot IN the mech. THIS is only ONE reason we are against this game breaking crap. The rest speaks for itself. MW4 as you so kindly pointed out is one of our biggest and BEST reasons to NOT have the stupid camera. It forces the game from being tactical and enjoyable into a pop tarting 3rd person spectacle better reserved for an ARCADE game or worse yet a mech ASSAULT game. We have <by and large> ALL used 3rd person at one point or another, and we speak from experience when we say how damaging it can be and WILL be.

[p00k]

Rejarial Galatan, on 27 January 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

Got something to say to your post. You do know what the titles of these games are called right? mech WARRIOR. we are PILOTS of these massive war machines, sitting in the cockpit's of these mechs, not sitting in some office somewhere piloting them by remote. Every single source book, every story, every book has the pilot IN the mech.

oh god wouldn't it be hilarious if pgi's 3rd person view was a 3rd person view of the pilot in the cockpit, and not 3rd person of the mech?

SURPRISE HERE'S YOUR 3RD PERSON VIEW. NOW YOU CAN SEE HOW PRETTY YOUR PILOT'S JUMPSUIT LOOKS IN 3RD PERSON!

[StORmTrAin]

Rejarial Galatan, on 27 January 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

<choke>

Another purist who is to immersed in unreality. I'm not sure if you know this but you actually are piloting remotely. How's that for immersion?

[StORmTrAin]

CyBerkut, on 27 January 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

1st Person View was the only view allowed in the NBT (NetBattleTech) league. I'd say it was pretty popular there.

How about MekTek, the more popular league? 1st person wasn't very popular there. Maybe that's why you chose the less popular league,...1st person. You cannot say that most of the public servers (you know, people who hosted their own servers) were ALWAYS full of 3rd person players and the ONE 1st person server seldom had 16 players.
---------------------------
As for comparing players... well, you are actually making our point. If 3rd Person View players can be said to be better on average, one has to logically suspect that there is an advantage being gained by it's use.

3rd person players were genrally better players in 1st person because the were usually more aware of their surroundings.
-------------------------------

Have you got a source for statistics on that?

Do you?
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I played MW4 in 3rd person in another league for awhile. My impressions were quite different than yours. The players weren't noticeably 'better', and the game play was not as interesting. Pilots using 3rd Person View advantages to pop tart, and look around/over obstructions without risk of taking damage was just lame. Playing in a 1st Person View league was far more interesting.

If you don't like pop tarting why don't you cry about jump jets? I see your reason now for not liking 3rd person, you always got your butt kicked and you could not adapt, unlike the 3rd person players who adapt to 1st person and still kick butt.

------------------------------

I've seen them whining in these forums. As for what the better pilots played, you're entitled to your opinion, but that is all it is. Hopefully, they will play MWO regardless.

The simple fact that your lobbying against 3rd person testifies to the fact that you employ a limited skill set. My opinion states that MWO should try to integrate a 3rd person option. 1st person players don't even want people who like 3rd person an option to play how they like to play. I say, bait the hook and see what catches on. 1st person players will whine about this as well...because those people only want the game to be what they like it to be without concern to what other gamers might enjoy.
You all want your way but you don't want to give anything. The simple answer is, allow a 3rd person drop option and leave the decision up to the individual, or the drop leader. If there's noone to play with then that is life. when the 1st person players find that everyone has gone 3rd person then they will adapt too, like the 3rd person players do now.

[Mordynak]

80 ******** pages? Really, what the hell?

Can we not just leave this to a poll?

[JoeKano]

Just dont mix the drops. That's whats needed, 3rd person enabled and 1st person enabled should be segregated.

[grayson marik]

Rejarial Galatan, on 27 January 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

Got something to say to your post. You do know what the titles of these games are called right? mech WARRIOR. we are PILOTS of these massive war machines, sitting in the cockpit's of these mechs, not sitting in some office somewhere piloting them by remote. Every single source book, every story, every book has the pilot IN the mech. THIS is only ONE reason we are against this game breaking crap. The rest speaks for itself. MW4 as you so kindly pointed out is one of our biggest and BEST reasons to NOT have the stupid camera. It forces the game from being tactical and enjoyable into a pop tarting 3rd person spectacle better reserved for an ARCADE game or worse yet a mech ASSAULT game. We have <by and large> ALL used 3rd person at one point or another, and we speak from experience when we say how damaging it can be and WILL be.

Thank you for pointing that out!

Mordynak, on 27 January 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

80 ******** pages? Really, what the hell?

Can we not just leave this to a poll?

It has been in a poll already and >90% voted against 3rd person view.
The poll was erm...deleted, moved, whatever.... during the last forum censo.. ahhh restructuring by the website admin team.

[Mordynak]

grayson marik, on 27 January 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

It has been in a poll already and >90% voted against 3rd person view.
The poll was erm...deleted, moved, whatever.... during the last forum censo.. ahhh restructuring by the website admin team.

Ahh, i was not aware of that. Seems off they are still considering it no?

HJ JoeKano, on 27 January 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

Just dont mix the drops. That's whats needed, 3rd person enabled and 1st person enabled should be segregated.

Why have i never seen this suggested before?

What would be nice for starting a match is options like you get in battlelog for battlefield 3.
Before a match, instead of just clicking "Launch" you would be able to set certain filters
Like so

Edited by Mordynak, 28 January 2013 - 12:38 AM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

StORmTrAin, on 27 January 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

Another purist who is to immersed in unreality. I'm not sure if you know this but you actually are piloting remotely. How's that for immersion?

from earth to the battle fields of the Battletech universe, I suppose you are right, but, when you strip away reality and immerse yourself into the game, you are no longer in remote control, but in direct control of a battle mech in the year 3050, and thusly, no longer do you call it REMOTE. saddens me, you try to implant earth of 2013 into a game that is taking place 1037 or so years FROM now.... by and large, 3rd person goes against a KEY design pillar. never forget that.

p00k, on 27 January 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

oh god wouldn't it be hilarious if pgi's 3rd person view was a 3rd person view of the pilot in the cockpit, and not 3rd person of the mech?

SURPRISE HERE'S YOUR 3RD PERSON VIEW. NOW YOU CAN SEE HOW PRETTY YOUR PILOT'S JUMPSUIT LOOKS IN 3RD PERSON!

i think you found the ONE 3rd person that would be acceptable, if for nothing more than the hilarity

[ChaosInc]

Garth Erlam, on 16 November 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

If we find that there is a relevant role for an optional 3^rd person camera mode, then then would simply be an additional option that, if you don’t want it, won’t affect you. Bryan will be writing a detailed Command Chair post on this (he's currently at 40,000 feet, and not by Jump Jetting) with more details. For now, be assured we're acutely aware of past problems with 3rd person view, and will make sure those same issues are thoroughly addressed. We wouldn’t settle for anything less.

What every happened to your old stance of not adding 3rd person view until a way can be found that offers neither view a competitive advantage?

[StORmTrAin]

Rejarial Galatan, on 28 January 2013 - 01:38 AM, said:

from earth to the battle fields of the Battletech universe, I suppose you are right, but, when you strip away reality and immerse yourself into the game, you are no longer in remote control, but in direct control of a battle mech in the year 3050, and thusly, no longer do you call it REMOTE. saddens me, you try to implant earth of 2013 into a game that is taking place 1037 or so years FROM now.... by and large, 3rd person goes against a KEY design pillar. never forget that.

What should sadden you is the fact that 2013 technology is ahead of this game, lmao! I know you'd like to appear as though you know what you're talking about being a lore fanboy and all that, but the fact of the mattter is today's technology IS advancing into remote control concepts, you see, because it limits the damage the humans receive. Oh yeah, and we have radar. If you want immersion go buy one of those stupid vibrating joysticks and stick your monitor in a carboard box and cut out little windows and draw nice little pictures on it with a cute little cyclops smiley face. So why don't we all get with the times and except the fact that remote control is a reality an experience true game immersion?? Now go back to your card board box and let the grownups play their game.

[CyBerkut]

StORmTrAin, on 27 January 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

[snip]

How about MekTek, the more popular league? 1st person wasn't very popular there. Maybe that's why you chose the less popular league,...1st person. You cannot say that most of the public servers (you know, people who hosted their own servers) were ALWAYS full of 3rd person players and the ONE 1st person server seldom had 16 players.

So? Yes, if 3rd person is available as an option on a server, or in a league, MORE players choose to use it. Why would that be? Because it is easier, due to the advantages it bestows.... D'oh! Playing in 1st person view in a server that allows 3rd person view as well, is logically a poor choice. It only makes sense to go play on 1st person only servers so that everyone is playing with the same tactical challenges / options.

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3rd person players were genrally better players in 1st person because the were usually more aware of their surroundings.

That is completely illogical, and I don't believe you. If they were playing in 1st person view, they had the same information available to them as everyone else in the match. There is no reason to believe they were somehow magically more aware of their surroundings.

StORmTrAin said:

CyBerkut said:

Have you got a source for statistics on that?

Do you?

Do I what? I wasn't the one making sweeping generalizations as if they were facts... you were. If you want them to be seen as credible, back them up with a source for statistics. I don't expect that you will, because I doubt there is such a source for statistics on that.

StORmTrAin said:

CyBerkut said:

I played MW4 in 3rd person in another league for awhile. My impressions were quite different than yours. The players weren't noticeably 'better', and the game play was not as interesting. Pilots using 3rd Person View advantages to pop tart, and look around/over obstructions without risk of taking damage was just lame. Playing in a 1st Person View league was far more interesting.

If you don't like pop tarting why don't you cry about jump jets? I see your reason now for not liking 3rd person, you always got your butt kicked and you could not adapt, unlike the 3rd person players who adapt to 1st person and still kick butt.

1st off... I didn't have a problem with pop tarting (jump sniping). It's a valid tactic. What I objected to was 3PV players having an unrealistic advantage while doing it.

As for what you "see"... well, you go ahead and imagine whatever you want to, and attribute things to what you come up with. You seem to have a knack for it. As to the reality of the matter, I already have explained that I found 3rd person view play less interesting, and frankly, lame.

As to jump jets... they are available to anyone who chooses to pilot a variant that can equip them, and they are canon. Furthermore, using them to see what is on the other side of an obstruction exposes the jumper to potential enemy fire... so no unfair advantage is being gained by their use. They also do not provide a player with the ability to see around a corner without being exposed to enemy fire, like 3PV can provide.

StORmTrAin said:

CyBerkut said:

I've seen them whining in these forums. As for what the better pilots played, you're entitled to your opinion, but that is all it is. Hopefully, they will play MWO regardless.

The simple fact that your lobbying against 3rd person testifies to the fact that you employ a limited skill set.

Hmmm... First off, my opposition to 3PV is a bit more nuanced than you have bothered to notice. For instance, on the 2nd of December, 2012, in http://mwomercs.com/...53#entry1531653

I said:

Quote

If 3PV play is to be made available, then segregating it via the match making system seems to be a reasonably viable option. I'm not overly concerned about splitting the player base, as in theory it should increase the player base size overall. I don't think we'll lose all that many out of the 1PV side of things, and if it manages to bring in significant additional $$$ for PGI while not screwing up 1PV play... that sounds like a good thing (in and of itself).

I'll note that I didn't hear what they would do with the upcoming Community Warfare, if this gets implemented. Would they run parallel Communities? It would seem that they would have to, in order to avoid the 1PV vs 3PV teams battling for the same planet scenario.

If they implement segregation via the match maker, and also in Community Warfare, then the remaining concern would be the client getting hacked to make the 3PV available to someone in a 1PV only match. That is not a trivial concern in my view, and pointing out that other things can be done (ie. making mechs appear to glow, or putting floating billboards over them) doesn't really negate that. If 3PV mechanics are programmed into the client, it makes it easier to exploit. Reality is however, there is already stuff going on that needs to be addressed (ie. an autoaim bot). It looks like some kind of punkbuster-like solution needs to be added in, sadly.

And you should have noticed, since you posted a mere 7 messages later.

Secondly, your conclusion is illogical. If I were not satisified with my skill level, I would be looking for more advantages to compensate for that... such as being able to see over and around obstructions in 3PV.

Quote

My opinion states that MWO should try to integrate a 3rd person option. 1st person players don't even want people who like 3rd person an option to play how they like to play. I say, bait the hook and see what catches on. 1st person players will whine about this as well...because those people only want the game to be what they like it to be without concern to what other gamers might enjoy.
You all want your way but you don't want to give anything. The simple answer is, allow a 3rd person drop option and leave the decision up to the individual, or the drop leader. If there's noone to play with then that is life. when the 1st person players find that everyone has gone 3rd person then they will adapt too, like the 3rd person players do now.

Gosh, if only such a thing as separating 3PV from 1PV had been suggested back in November, or earlier.
http://mwomercs.com/...2729#entry32729

You really ought to lay off the sweeping generalizations, and painting large numbers of people with the same broad brush. It undermines the credibility of your stated position(s).

[Rejarial Galatan]

StORmTrAin, on 28 January 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

What should sadden you is the fact that 2013 technology is ahead of this game, lmao! I know you'd like to appear as though you know what you're talking about being a lore fanboy and all that, but the fact of the mattter is today's technology IS advancing into remote control concepts, you see, because it limits the damage the humans receive. Oh yeah, and we have radar. If you want immersion go buy one of those stupid vibrating joysticks and stick your monitor in a carboard box and cut out little windows and draw nice little pictures on it with a cute little cyclops smiley face. So why don't we all get with the times and except the fact that remote control is a reality an experience true game immersion?? Now go back to your card board box and let the grownups play their game.

you think it doesnt sadden me to know that cheap caddies have rear facing cameras and multi million c-bill mechs do not? I chalk that up to poor engine choice. BUT, when you click launch, you leave 2013 and transit to 3050. deal with that, and the fact we refuse to have a feature that is against a key design pillar and general consensus.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

StORmTrAin, on 28 January 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

What should sadden you is the fact that 2013 technology is ahead of this game, lmao! I know you'd like to appear as though you know what you're talking about being a lore fanboy and all that, but the fact of the mattter is today's technology IS advancing into remote control concepts, you see, because it limits the damage the humans receive. Oh yeah, and we have radar. If you want immersion go buy one of those stupid vibrating joysticks and stick your monitor in a carboard box and cut out little windows and draw nice little pictures on it with a cute little cyclops smiley face. So why don't we all get with the times and except the fact that remote control is a reality an experience true game immersion?? Now go back to your card board box and let the grownups play their game.

what do you smoke it? ...
you've got so many fans that you applaud you already have to your own posts ... Arcade troll;

And for the Statistic ,take the Statistic from this Forum to 3PV ... little nacistic Trollkid

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 29 January 2013 - 03:27 AM.

[Fatal Flaw 1989]

3rd person view to me is unrealistic and why i didnt use it in MW4 (shame there was no cockpit in that game) BUT this game looks aws with its cockpit drawn in detail as if u rly were there, Im going to use 2 joysticks , 1 for movement/jets and other for torso movement and targeting (trying to go for realism without a HOTAS setup) However a rear facing camera?? think the hell a weapon strike on ur rear view camera would do :/ I know it may be the year 3050 but armor gets melted and blown to pieces in this game, then the rear view camera should have the same weakness as to be destroyed/disabled... I dnt like the idea of a rear view camera personally, I mean as far as i know modern day tanks of today don't even have that ( probably for reasons iv mentioned)
I want to use MWO as a futuristic war simulator mech game, hate my post by all means but its just the way i like to play my mechwarrior games from MW3 till today and i wouldnt have an issue with 3rd person view if it didnt give them that extra view over the top of hills etc, that first person doesnt give u.

Edited by Fatal 4, 29 January 2013 - 06:12 AM.