112 replies to this topic

[Mizore]

When i think of the most dangerous mech-variants you can oppose, then the top 4 are all Catapults:

Gauss-Cat (K2-Catapult)
AC20-Cat (K2-Catapult)
6xSSRM2-Cat (A1-Catapult)
6xSRM6-Cat (A1-Catapult)

It seems strange, that no other mech is such a threat to me, that i call them a first target, because they can take out half of my team in a very short time.
A1-Catapults can be easily countered, when you shot off his "ears", but K2-Catapults have the unfair advantage, that they can mount 2 of the most dangerous weapons in its little side torsos that are very hard to hit.

PGI is trying to balance the gauss cannon in the way that they make it more fragile, but this nerf doesn't hit the K2-Catapult, because of the small side torsos. The Gauss-Cat will become even stronger in comparrison, because all other gauss using mechs are getting weaker with the upcomming gauss nerf.

The same problem is with the AC20... PGI said they will buf the AC20 and so the AC20-Cat will become even more dangerous than it already is!
At the moment you even have very bad chances to defeat an AC20-Cat when you're sitting in an Atlas that's specialised on short range combat, exept you get some lucky shots on the Cat's cockpit.

It's just unfair how ridiculously strong for an 65t mech the Gauss-/AC20-Cat is... get rid of this build, it'll destroy any effort of balancing.
Restrict the balistic slots in it's side torsos so that a gauss cannon/AC20 can't be mounted there any more!

Edited by Mizore, 17 November 2012 - 10:10 AM.

[CompproB237]

I've actually theorized that a critical restriction on hardpoints would mitigate this issue. Much like Mechwarrior 4 had (I know). At least it would make the 'Mechs make more sense. Small hole in nose of K2 for MG. Can only place a 1 Critical ballistic weapon in the slot... etc.

SSRM-Cat/SRM-Cat - Stay >300m away from the mech. Easymode.

[Darwins Dog]

I finally had a chance to see the AC20 cat in action today. I was spectating him and it was pretty brutal. 4 kills in about 3 minutes. Like the streak cat, you can out range it pretty easily, but once the brawl started, the match was essentially over.

I think that the K2 in particular needs work. I don't like the idea of hardpoint restrictions for everyone because imo this is the only real problem.

Best solution I've heard is to move the ballistic hardpoints to the center torso.

[DivineEvil]

I think that a number of critical slots should be relative to the size of the mech's secton. This way you can mount a heavy weapon in the place if that place is big enough, thus making mech variant more sophisticated. If you have a Wang, that is refitted to mount an AC/20 into his arm, then why any other Centurion with Ballistic slot can house the same AC/20 into the arm, that is substantialy smaller? Atlas mech, that has just the same physical volume in his side torso, as Jenner's Arm actuator, is simply ridiculous.

That change must fix the problem, but require some further changes.
For example, Double Heat Sinks - they are supposed to take 3x slots, same weight and give 2x heat dissipation, but that were tested to be overpowered. Since now they're not even 1.5 Heat Sinks, thus they should make them take two slots, so they would be Double at least in that consideration. That will make the limitation of critical slots less terrible for Lights, that are upgraded for high-price, high-reward performance.

Some other weapons and their slot and weight requirements must also be reviewed to accomodate for such change, because it should still allow a reasonable space for personal builds.

Edited by DivineEvil, 17 November 2012 - 11:51 AM.

[Seravos]

Solution: Restrict gauss and AC/20 to only one per mech.

[CompproB237]

Seravos, on 17 November 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

Solution: Restrict gauss and AC/20 to only one per mech.

*sees AC/20+AC/10-Cat or Gauss+AC/10-Cat*
Nope. I still think Hardpoint Critical restrictions would work better. Best you could put on K2 with Ballistic Hardpoint restricted to 1 Critical would be 2x AC/2s. Really does solve the problem in my eyes. Also goes with DivineEvil's post. Regular Centurion Vs. Yen-Lo-Wang would also support this. Hardpoint Critical Restriction would make the Regular Centurion (7 Criticals for AC/10) incapable of equipping an AC/20 (10 Criticals) of which the Yen-Lo-Wang was specifically designed to carry.

I know the Arm Actuator was removed to make room for this modification (Hence why it cannot move) but I'm using it for a reference to support my example.

Further Edit: It would also make Jenner's incapable of equipping a PPC or LRM 10. Although, I did love the looks I got when I made my Jenner with a PPC for laughs. The entire team immediately looked at my 'Mech. O_o

Edited by CompproB237, 17 November 2012 - 12:23 PM.

[deadeye mcduck]

Just wait till Tuesday, as the Cataphract arrives. I bet you will see plenty of those armed with dual gauss rifles come post patch day.

[DivineEvil]

Seravos, on 17 November 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

Solution: Restrict gauss and AC/20 to only one per mech.

Ummm, a post like that just shows how little som people know about the MW universe. There is some mechs, that can legitimally carry a double Gauss or AC/20. Hell, there's even that Thunder Hawk, which houses 3x Gauss Rifles.

But, housing such arsenal requires some prerequisites to be met, for example... a space to pack that things inside? And currently, that most basic requirement is ignored by the Critical Slot system, because the amount of critical space between mech's parts is ignored and work only as an initial limitation, that just doesn't allow to pack heavy weapons into single space, and nothing beyond that.

[Deadoon]

Seravos, on 17 November 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

Solution: Restrict gauss and AC/20 to only one per mech.

http://www.sarna.net...ad_(BattleMech)
2X Gauss 60 ton mech.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Annihilator
C2 variant, 4 Gauss rifles and an erppc on a 100 ton slow mech.

And both of these use arm mounted Gauss rifles.

Edited by Deadoon, 17 November 2012 - 01:25 PM.

[DivineEvil]

http://www.sarna.net...ga_(BattleMech)
Just for fun, not to point something out.

Edited by DivineEvil, 17 November 2012 - 01:28 PM.

[Mizore]

deadeye mcduck, on 17 November 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

Just wait till Tuesday, as the Cataphract arrives. I bet you will see plenty of those armed with dual gauss rifles come post patch day.

Sure, i think you're right, but i also think that people will soon recognice, that a Gauss-Cat is still 10x better... you'll see
The only advantage the Cataphract has are the jumpjets.

[Careless_Ocelot]

What I think is the problem is that we don't have a ballistic assault mech yet such as the Annihilator. Right now the K2 as a AC20/Gauss platform is really a crippled assault mech, it doesn't have the maneuverability (due to engine stripping) and arm maneuverability to be a true assault. Having dual heavy weapons on a slow heavy mech is not out of the ordinary for battletech. But there should be an assault mech with equivalent or greater ballistic capabilities. But of course still more mechs to come right?

[DivineEvil]

Assaults will always be slow and will always lack maneuverability. That's absolutely the wrong point. The problem is clear and has been discussed for a while now - we have mechs with equal spaces in all chassis sections, Lights or Assaults, and the only way to fix the issue is to reduce it based on the actual sizes. We have a car and a river that must be crossed. We don't need to build a dam, neither we need to dry the river, neither we need to fill it with dirt, neither we need to make our car amphibious. We just need to build the damn bridge over it.

We might get some 2x AC20 or 2x Gauss mechs in the future, but these mech must be constructed and designed to use these gargantuan weapons and have associated limitations. Right now even 4xMG Cicada can wield a Gauss, which is unrealistic and stupid. It's a real time issue, not a temporary inconvenience in mech selection.

Edited by DivineEvil, 17 November 2012 - 02:56 PM.

[CompproB237]

Reducing the actual critical space on a 'Mech based on physical size is technically not how the tabletop worked but it makes logical sense. DivineEvil's solution or mine would provide relief from these kind of builds as well as encourage diversity. I don't think reducing # of total criticals is a good idea though. If done there would be other things to consider (armor/structure conversions would need to be on a per-chassis/variant basis) but many of these would make further logical sense (bigger mech = bigger skeleton...).

Edited by CompproB237, 17 November 2012 - 03:28 PM.

[Thirdrail]

Darwins Dog, on 17 November 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

I finally had a chance to see the AC20 cat in action today. I was spectating him and it was pretty brutal. 4 kills in about 3 minutes. Like the streak cat, you can out range it pretty easily, but once the brawl started, the match was essentially over.

I think that the K2 in particular needs work. I don't like the idea of hardpoint restrictions for everyone because imo this is the only real problem.

Best solution I've heard is to move the ballistic hardpoints to the center torso.

I agree with all of this. Moving the ballistic hardpoints to the center torso on the K2 is such an elegant solution. It doesn't break six things while trying to fix one thing.

The problem with the disadvantages people always cite for the gauss and cannon kitties is that they aren't very big disadvantages in any match that's more than 1v1. In an 8v8 game, it's incredibly easy to hang back, and get lost in the fracas. Especially when you've got a 1200m range. The maps are so small, and you can shoot so far, it barely matters if you're stuck going 45kph. (You could even argue that it's an advantage, because it means you show up when everyone is already engaged and distracted.)

It's not uncommon at all for a single gun cat to have half the kills on the team at the end of the match. That strongly suggests something is out of balance, just like it did when LRM boats were routinely causing three to four times as much damage as everyone else.

[Donkehote]

Darwins Dog, on 17 November 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

I finally had a chance to see the AC20 cat in action today. I was spectating him and it was pretty brutal. 4 kills in about 3 minutes. Like the streak cat, you can out range it pretty easily, but once the brawl started, the match was essentially over.

I think that the K2 in particular needs work. I don't like the idea of hardpoint restrictions for everyone because imo this is the only real problem.

Best solution I've heard is to move the ballistic hardpoints to the center torso.

Please PLEASE do this.

[WaddeHaddeDudeda]

The QQ on these boards is hilarious.
Even IF they nerf the Catapults, there will be other mechs people will whine about.

Just you wait until you face me in my 1 erppc, 2 gauss + JJ Cataphract 3D. o_O

[Sean von Steinike]

None of those mech particularly scare me. They all have inherent weaknesses. The mech you pilot might not be able to take advantage of those weakness but then, it is supposed to be a team game. The missile Cats have short range. Stay out of their range and hit from a distance. The AC/20 and Gauss Cats, a little more tricky but lights nipping at them and spotting for lrm boats can be a nice solution. Of course, since they are common builds, you likely have a couple of them on your team anyway. Send yours against theirs.

[IKEAhardWood]

*grabs popcorn* i love the drama here.

[Madidus]

It's a one trick pony, though it does that trick extremely well...

In the right hands it can be extremely deadly at picking off damaged or stationary mechs. Once you get past the OMGWTFPWN! front-loaded damage, an organized group can tear one down pretty damn fast. The huge target on the nose that is the cockpit doesn't help much either.

I don't mind the idea of moving the ballistic hardpoints to the center torso, but I feel that would cripple the K2 in a lot of ways. Perhaps moving the ballistic hardpoint to the center torso and adding 2 additional energy hardpoints (1 to left torso, 1 to right torso).