299 replies to this topic

[Rokuzachi]

Gorith, on 18 November 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

So after maxing your favorite mech what would you do? Having different variants of the same chassis will actually help you in the long run when the metagame gets put in because you will likely know the heat index/terrain style of the planets you are dropping on so you can have 3 of your favorite mech ready to go decked out for whatever environment your getting dropped down onto

Assuming that you actually like the other variants that a chassis has. Some variants have a different enough hardpoint layout that it's pretty well impossible to 'clone' your load out over to them. My best personal example - Love the Dragon 1C, hate the 1N and 5N. Given the chance, I will never play those two variants again after I'm done grinding them.

After maxing out my favorite mech, I would continue to play it because I enjoy it and have gotten better at generating XP/Cbills with it than mechs/variants I do not enjoy. Just because there's no more progression (if you can call it that atm) with a mech doesn't mean you have to bail on it.

Edited by Rokuzachi, 18 November 2012 - 10:35 AM.

[Oriius]

I'm a little torn, I think it could stay that way in order to ge tto the master skill, but I think to get to elite you should only need 2 with basic's maxed out.

This would ease the "grindyness" of it all i think if only just a little bit, it would make the progress feel a little more fair alround.

[OpCentar]

It's OK if you have to buy 3 variants once .

It's not OK if you have sold them while not Mastering and then you have to buy them again just to spend XP in the Pilot tree.


And remember, converting MXP to GXP costs MCs. Now, here's a brilliant opportunity to capitalize on that PGI.

Why don't you allow us to "unlock" variant upgrade tree by using GXP instead of buying the actual mech?

The cost would have to be specific per chassis but slightly lower than the MC cost for the mech itself. That way you could allow players to play only their favorite variant and Master it by spending MCs on the XP conversion, also they would need to pay a one time MC fee for unlocking the additional variant or two.


Of course players could take the longer, but C-Bill only route like we have now - buy each variant, play it and accumulate specific MXP for each one.

Or simply choose the quicker, some MC required, route explained above.

A win-win situation if you ask me.

Edited by OpCentar, 18 November 2012 - 10:38 AM.

[HarryMannbach]

Oriius, on 18 November 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

I'm a little torn, I think it could stay that way in order to ge tto the master skill, but I think to get to elite you should only need 2 with basic's maxed out. This would ease the "grindyness" of it all i think if only just a little bit, it would make the progress feel a little more fair alround.

I think that is actually a phenominal way to implement the system, and still have it make sense.

Well, and maybe throw one more perk in Master level >.>

Edited by HarryMannbach, 18 November 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[Chrithu]

HarryMannbach, on 18 November 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

I think it is certainly a matter of keeping people playing, but the gaming industry has been doing this for years, first via multitudes of sequels, now many games are trying to find ways to have one title become more long-term viable. It's simply business. It's not free for them to do what they do, so consumers have to choose the products they want and support them financially. Personally, I think the 3 variant requirement makes sense from a lore standpoint, if nothing else. You are getting credit for mastering the chassis, not a variant, so I can't bring myself to vote yes.

As with my edit. You have a fair point. And I certainly didn't want to say that trying to keep people playing was a bad thing per se. But in my view there are clever and not so clever ways to do it. As the vote shows: How this particular part of the game mechanics is perceived is highly dependend on the personal view of each player.

In my view:

Have me gather XP and CBbills in order to unlock and special traits and get certain Mechs that I want to play is good and clever. It gives me a purpose, a target to work towards other than simply playing the same 4 (soon 6) maps and their variants over and over again, I certainly need that and I guess this is the same for many here.

Forcing me to play other variants of a mech that I normally would never touch because I do not like the hardpoint setup (CDA-3M) or view them as redundant and thus not needed (JR7-K). But much more forcing me to spend my CBills on tose variants (especially when it's about assaults) in my view is not clever since for me there is no fun involved in that. Much more it brakes down my pace on achieving my goals and thus is an annoying harassment to me.

There is a fine line between making me play longer and at the same time make it more fun for me and making me play longer and with it break the fun. And that line sits at a different place for everyone I understand that.

Still I think if the top priority design goal was to make the game fun in all departments for as many people as possible we'd probably have a different mechanic in the XP and Skilltree system. I know this implies fun is not the highest priority design goal in games anymore and of course I might be wrong. I even hope so. But that hope isn't big having seen interviews with actual game designers (for F2P games) that say that even to them it is no fun creating such systems that have forcing the player to keep playing parts of the game that might be no fun for a part of the playerbase as their top purpose.


Edit: Again I'm just criticizing without providing something constructive and I hate doing it so here is a proposal for change in the system: Give me the ability to unlock elite on a variant by gathering a significantly high mutlitude of the XP I'd need to gather by playing the other two variants. So I can choos if I spend my time gathereing the CBills for the other variants and play them until I unlock basic on them or if I just keep playing my desired variant for a longer time. I think this could be balanced in a very fair way. Maybe even include a CBill fee for unlocking eote/master without playing othr variants/mechs.

Edited by Jason Parker, 18 November 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[HRR Nighthawk]

It forces a diverse loadout of mechs every match right now, instead of everyone just running the best loadout of a particular mech every game. Once the game mode is introduced that requires you to use 4 mechs at a time, it'll help that people have been buying additional chassis to up their skills. For these reasons i'm ok with it. Otherwise i'd f'ing hate it.

[Hex Dog]

I laugh when people call it grinding.

For most of us its called 'playing the game'

Do you need to be twink that badly that you don't enjoy the game till you're the best?

Additionally, why are you so bitter that the games company wants to make money and throw it in their face? They don't make you pay to play the game so lighten up - it's an open-ended demo - its open beta - YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY A PENNY - so shut up and go away or play the game and enjoy it like the rest of us who never bother typing in the forum cause we're too busy playing!

Edited by Hex Dog, 18 November 2012 - 10:48 AM.

[Rokuzachi]

I'd rather spend a combination of Cbills + XP to unlock stuff, without having to play other variants. PGI could still encourage MC sales with this because if you made the skill unlocks pricey enough (cbills), you'd have folks converting their MC into Cbills via mech purchase/selling, or if they had an option to straight up convert MC to Cbills.

Free players could still just make the time investment to grind it all out, and if the grind was tuned correctly, would encourage premium account time.

[Jman5]

I don't like the way it works now. I hate the fact that I have to pilot a variant I have no intention of using afterward, but it adds a money sink, and makes you branch out to try new mechs.

"Hey remember that variant you hate? Well you're stuck piloting it for 20 games because you want to unlock the third tier for the mech you really want to play. Enjoy!"

Instead of focing players to buy 3 of the same weight class, they should have players buy a mech from each weight class. So speed skills are unlocked when you buy a light mech, defense skills are unlocked with the assault, and then you can add some for the heavy and medium classes.

This would force players to branch out and try different mechs, add a money sink, and would actually make sense. Plus you're actually trying totally different mechs instead of hunchback version 1, 2 and 3.

[HarryMannbach]

Jason Parker, on 18 November 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

As with my edit. You have a fair point. And I certainly didn't want to say that trying to keep people playing was a bad thing per se. But in my view there are clever and not so clever ways to do it. As the vote shows: How this particular part of the game mechanics is perceived is highly dependend on the personal view of each player. In my view: Have me gather XP and CBbills in order to unlock and special traits and get certain Mechs that I want to play is good and clever. It gives me a purpose, a target to work towards other than simply playing the same 4 (soon 6) maps and their variants over and over again, I certainly need that and I guess this is the same for many here. Forcing me to play other variants of a mech that I normally would never touch because I do not like the hardpoint setup (CDA-3M) or view them as redundant and thus not needed (JR7-K). But much more forcing me to spend my CBills on tose variants (especially when it's about assaults) in my view is not clever since for me there is no fun involved in that. Much more it brakes down my pace on achieving my goals and thus is an annoying harassment to me. There is a fine line between making me play longer and at the same time make it more fun for me and making me play longer and with it break the fun. And that line sits at a different place for everyone I understand that. Still I think if the top priority design goal was to make the game fun in all departments for as many people as possible we'd probably have a different mechanic in the XP and Skilltree system. I know this implies fun is not the highest priority design goal in games anymore and of course I might be wrong. I even hope so. But that hope isn't big having seen interviews with actual game designers (for F2P games) that say that even to them it is no fun creating such systems that have forcing the player to keep playing parts of the game that might be no fun for a part of the playerbase as their top purpose.

I think everything you've said makes perfect sense, and I don't disagree with any of it, really. I just think it is also important to keep in mind that the game is still being actively developed and there is a whole lot yet to add to it in terms of content (maps, mechs, game modes, factions) that are all going to eventually be a very large part of what this game is, at which point I think the risk of pushing people to their lack-of-fun point gets considerably smaller. I do feel it is important to remember that we are all still part of the testing process. Heck, I think this thread alone has generated a few very solid ideas about how to improve the system in question without unmaking it

[Hex Dog]

I think the system is fine as it is.

The mech you think is useless somebody else enjoys using. The hardpoint config you can't work with, someone else has it fine tuned to mech destruction.

I'm pretty sure there will be adjustments (as with EVE) to the way mechs are balanced in result of seeing them operating if certain mechs could be better.

[I7aggoHok]

Gorith, on 18 November 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

So after maxing your favorite mech what would you do? Having different variants of the same chassis will actually help you in the long run when the metagame gets put in because you will likely know the heat index/terrain style of the planets you are dropping on so you can have 3 of your favorite mech ready to go decked out for whatever environment your getting dropped down onto

Ok. I buy Yen-Lo-Wang. And now i need 2 buy two additional centurions and 2 mechbuys slots to up it. I buy Yen-Lo-Wang just because i full up all my catapults and wait for CATAPHRACT. But now i need to buy 5 slots... so epic fail

[HarryMannbach]

Hex Dog, on 18 November 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

I think the system is fine as it is. The mech you think is useless somebody else enjoys using. The hardpoint config you can't work with, someone else has it fine tuned to mech destruction. I'm pretty sure there will be adjustments (as with EVE) to the way mechs are balanced in result of seeing them operating if certain mechs could be better.

I agree entirely! (Well... except JasonParker has the JR7-K dead to rights... the thing is pretty much pointless Let's get crackin on a new functional Jenner variant, devs!)

[Devils Advocate]

No. It's the only 'endgame' we have right now. It might seem like it takes a long time to buy and grind out XP for three variants from the standpoint of someone who has only played for two weeks but after this game has been out for several months you'll be completely out of stuff to do even with the system we have now.

[Rokuzachi]

Hex Dog, on 18 November 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

I think the system is fine as it is. The mech you think is useless somebody else enjoys using. The hardpoint config you can't work with, someone else has it fine tuned to mech destruction. I'm pretty sure there will be adjustments (as with EVE) to the way mechs are balanced in result of seeing them operating if certain mechs could be better.

And why would I care about what mech someone else enjoys? Why should I have to play or buy two variants I dislike just to advance the one I do?

[Hex Dog]

I discovered the Hunchback 4P when I was previously using the SP and though the SP is more versatile I'm more interested in lasers. So its doing its function to introduce players to different mechs and keep the variety in the game.

Nobody is out to force you to spend money or upset you. This isn't the government. Game developers create content options that are attractive to encourage spending of money. There are a lot of very cynical people who would be better off as revolutionaries instead of persecuting game devs and making them wonder why they bother.

[HarryMannbach]

Rokuzachi, on 18 November 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

And why would I care about what mech someone else enjoys? Why should I have to play or buy two variants I dislike just to advance the one I do?

You don't HAVE to... you'll just never master the chassis by playing one variant None of the unlocks are game-breaking anyhow. I only have first tier myself, as I don't have endless playtime, but I have had my share of dominating moments (alongside my share of get-my-5h!t-beat-in moments).

[Hex Dog]

Reading and critiquing one author doesn't make you a literary master, comparing and contrasting authors puts you on the path to informed genius, however.

[Gorith]

Rokuzachi, on 18 November 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

And why would I care about what mech someone else enjoys? Why should I have to play or buy two variants I dislike just to advance the one I do?

Then don't grind up mech XP and spend some cash to convert it to GXP buy the two other variants unlock them to master in 5 minutes then sell them back... there you haven't played a single match grinding mechs you don't like and you have master.

Edited by Gorith, 18 November 2012 - 11:13 AM.

[Rokuzachi]

Gorith, on 18 November 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

Then don't grind up mech XP and spend some cash to convert it to GXP buy the two other variants unlock them to master in 5 minutes then sell them back... there you haven't played a single match grinding mechs you don't like and you have master.

That's what I'd do - the question is why you have to purchase it to spend the XP on it, as others have stated. I said 'play or purchase', because I have no problem converting XP to shortcut it. My problem is with having to purchase the mech just to spend XP on it.

As it is I converted over 10,000 xp to get through one of the Dragons I had purchased and decided I hated. I'd convert another 10,000 XP off my Cata C1, but I already sold it, and am not about to repurchase it to convert XP off of it. It makes no sense gameplay-wise.

I'd not have sold it if there were messaging warning that I wouldn't be able to convert XP I'd saved up from it. But bad/lack of messaging in this game is another huge matter in itself.

Edited by Rokuzachi, 18 November 2012 - 11:23 AM.