94 replies to this topic

[Shamoo]

SkkyHigh, on 19 November 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

I read these forums and all I see are ppl saying they dont use AMS, dont head for cover, or no longer mount LRMs cause they no longer cause enough damage or shake a cockpit like a cloud of missiles raining down upon an someone should.

0.1 dmg buff will not be enough.
the nerf to artemis missile grouping was a little much.
"missles incoming message", takes all the skill out of doging missles. In the catapult founders video it mentions something about wanting to kill the enemy without ever being seen? kinda hard when their mech knows when you're coming.
hitting atlases walking backwards is as hard as hitting a jenner doing 140.

tag doesn't help, <-- with my artemis equipped LRMs in my oppinion
narc does a bit but doesn't last long enough, at 900m one maybe two salvos long.

sometimes my missiles shoot out at 90 degrees to my mech.

I'm putting my two cents in because my wife no longer wants to hear me complain about a game that takes all my time.

Keep up the good work PGI, don't get me wrong I love this game which is another reason why I share these thoughts.

Weapon System or Lawndarts?

-Skkyhigh

I think you need to play more with the LRM system. I completely disagree on your take on the LRM's.

1) LRM's used to be 2.0 dropped to 1.7 (Per Missile that hits) + 0.1 = 1.8 Damage Per Missile that hits.

2) Artemis provide's -30% to missile spread, add TAG +30 to Missile hit rate = Tighter Damage Pattern + More Missile hit's on target.

3) Missile Warning does not stop missiles from hitting it just gives the target pilot a "chance" to do something about being the target (More for the unobservant pilot) The initiated already know missiles are incoming without the flashing warning.

[TheMightyWashburn]

SkkyHigh, on 19 November 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

Do i need to mount the kictchen sink as a luncher to get kills?
Cause 4x LRM10 and 2x LRM5 shouldnt have a problem. try using the Trial CAT with 2x LRM15s no art, or LRL15 LongRangeLawndart

That isnt an LRM boat is it? I dont expect my SRMs on my awesome to get the majority of my kills. (I have 2 srm 4s)
My point is a BOAT is still dangerous. People only think LRMs are weak now because you arent fighting 4-6 LRM boats at ONE time. A dedicated LRM platform does a good amount of damage, sometimes even the most damage. I literally have no armor on mine and rarely die, I only go 37 kph aswell. yet somehow Im getting kills and rarely dying.

[Myc]

If you're playing against skilled players, their going to find a way to counter your tactics. People are getting better at using cover. If you pack 2 AC20s, I'm keeping my distance. If I see a sky full of LRMs, I'm not going out in the open. I see people killed and damaged by them all the time. An Atlas is first and foremost an armor boat with mediocre damage for it's weight class. It's a poor example to use to measure weapon effectiveness. I can solo an Atlas with my brawling Jenner, if time doesn't run out first. It takes a long time.

[Odins Fist]

Nope, wrong... LRMs are "EXACTLY" where they need to be, so the blubbering needs to end.. PERIOD
I see more kills spread out amongst a team now, and have seen more "good game", and "WOW, what a match", with results closer, and actual enjoyment expressed from both "Vets/Founders" and "NEWCOMERS" in MWO (game chat from both teams) than I have seen in a long time since closed beta.. This is a good thing...
.
LRMs are a "SUPPORT" weapon, and they are now perfectly (EDIT: maybe not perfectly) tuned into that role... Now it takes (3) missiles boats to assist the team, and "NOT" 2 missile boats to dominate a match... And don't try to sell me anything different, I ran with a friend, just (2) of us to test this theory, and we were competing to see who got to 1000+ damage (FIRST), and who got the most kills before the "HOTFIX", and we consistantly did more than half, to half the kills on our team testing LRMs out right before the "HOTFIX", and the results/numbers do not lie..
.
The verdict is in, and actual shoot-outs between brawler Mechs are happening again, the "VETS" and the "NEWCOMERS" to MWO are having a great time, and last night I saw more praise for MWO during matches than I have seen since closed Beta started... PGI will have it figured out, and as the game stands right now, I haven't seen more than one "I'M LEAVING" post from "VETS" or "NEWCOMERS" for a week, and that my friends is a record..!!!
.

[SkkyHigh]

Shamoo, on 19 November 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

I think you need to play more with the LRM system. I completely disagree on your take on the LRM's.

1) LRM's used to be 2.0 dropped to 1.7 (Per Missile that hits) + 0.1 = 1.8 Damage Per Missile that hits.

2) Artemis provide's -30% to missile spread, add TAG +30 to Missile hit rate = Tighter Damage Pattern + More Missile hit's on target.

3) Missile Warning does not stop missiles from hitting it just gives the target pilot a "chance" to do something about being the target (More for the unobservant pilot) The initiated already know missiles are incoming without the flashing warning.

Play more? I've been playing with LRMs for months! My take is purely based upon in game experience.

[Kilgore]

AlexEss, on 19 November 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

I tested this in my Jenner.. standing still in the open hurt.. a lot. So my vote goes to weapon system. But ymmw

Being a jenner standing still and seeing how hard LRMs hurt is about as useful as having an atlas take their LT, CT & RT armor down to 20 and not torso twisting.

But lets say you are a Jenner and you went AFK to go get an adult beverage...

Two salvos of dual LRM 15's w/ Artemis should do a max of 102 damage. So if 70& of missiles hit and spread out 70 damage, I would expect the LT, CT & RT armor to be completely gone. Assuming the Jenner is running a 300XL engine, the jenner is most likely dead.

Try testing that. How many full salvos can a Jenner take to the chest before they die? I don't think those 60 missiles will do the trick. I think you'll need 3 salvos, and that's 90 missiles on a STATIONARY Jenner, so we're talking about an unrealistic scenario and essentially easier of a kill than anything else you can possibly encounter. 90 Missiles is half of a ton of ammo.

The easiest conceivable scenario of killing a mech with LRMs takes half of a ton of ammo. Tell me who is willing to run those instead of more lasers and Gauss? Two Gauss in the face and it's lights out.

When you take the arc, grouping and damage reduction into consideration, it's no doubt that LRMs took too big of a hit. I agree with the opening post in my thinking that .1 damage boost won't be enough of a boost.

I'll still try it out because I've already spent the money to equip Artemis on my Atlas D-DC and I don't feel like spending the money to take off that waste of space and tonnage.

[Joseph Mallan]

If Brawlers are "dominating again the balance is not right... yet. No one "type" should dominate. I assist my team with Kills a lot. I even wracked up 3 kills and 4 assists, an extra 0.1 is the right buff, so long as there are no other Nerfs. I don't count ECM as a Nerf, as it only is supposed to affect "advanced" targeting. Brawling is fine but I like it when I hear a Call for fire and i am able to aid my team kick some Ash with a kill or assist as the missiles fly! So keep your head down and watch out for sudden rain!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 19 November 2012 - 10:35 AM.

[wanderer]

Mind you, there's some flaws to the rollback they did.

LRMs didn't just get damage adjustments, but the fire pattern and guidance was also "dumbed down" to earlier coding as well. Way back. Missiles are doing an excellent job of splattering on terrain uselessly again, where they used to at least partially bypass terrain when fired. Non-TAG/NARC salvos are 100% missing fast targets- to the point of zero splash damage, even. The impact pattern is wider- meaning even on a straight shot, fewer of the (now weaker) missiles are impacting and that damage is more spread/splash and less direct hits. Missile warnings are indeed good enough to allow for much easier pop-up fire and then ducking behind terrain- which the dumber missile AI makes it easier to have cover result in missiles plowing harmlessly into dirt.

Not only did the hotfix revert missiles, it reverted them back to something more akin to rocket launchers than semi-guided missiles.

[TheMightyWashburn]

Some of you dont realize forcing the enemy team to take cover IS HELPING YOUR TEAM. I realize many of you dont know modern military tactics but forcing peopling into cover is called suppression Guess what people in cover cant do effectively? Shoot? yes. Shoot. They cant shoot their lazorz and my team and rush them, they can flank them, or go for the cap. THIS IS CALLED STRATEGY.

[Joseph Mallan]

Wanderer I have noticed that even with solid target lock my first salvo usually shoots off in a totally random direction. Which supports your rocket launcher theory. But after that I generally get good hits consistently.

Strategy is OP Washburn

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 19 November 2012 - 10:41 AM.

[Shamoo]

SkkyHigh, on 19 November 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

Play more? I've been playing with LRMs for months! My take is purely based upon in game experience.

Neither position in your post, nor your layout of your argument lend any strength to your above comment.

Bottom line is LRM's were overpowered against other platforms, which was backed up by the fact that they were reduced in a hotfix. We may yet see the LRM's climb back to 2.0 damage per missile in time with the correct counter systems in place.

[Axeman1]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 November 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

If Brawlers are "dominating again the balance is not right... yet. No one "type" should dominate. I assist my team with Kills a lot. I even wracked up 3 kills and 4 assists, an extra 0.1 is the right buff, so long as there are no other Nerfs.

LRMS without artemis is gimping your team

ECM > Artemis

LRMS = gimping your team

[Kilgore]

And when it comes to a support mech, your lance is better off with a Jenner D with 4 Med lasers and 2 SSRMS. The Jenner will make easy work of the boat 1 on 1. It is also great at supporting base defense by being able to return to base in a hurry. It's also a great support mech because it can distract opponents more than the distraction caused by mechs running for cover as if their lives depended on it because of the oppressive LRM fire (LAWL).

Let's just pretend that we accept LRMs as a support weapon. Mechs that use LRMs are worse at supporting their teams except when the opponent doesn't try to disrupt the LRM fire and the opponents can't kill your front line mechs and the opponents are standing around out in the open. Then and only then are LRMs useful. Even still, they aren't better than anything else you could have been running.

[Suko]

TheMightyWashburn, on 19 November 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

I made my first LRM boat yesterday. cat-A1. Just finished customizing it last night. It kills just fine. And even when I dont get a kill I knock most of their armor off, easy to our team to mop them up. Im using 4 lrms 10s & 2 lrm 5s with artemis alone with 1440 LRMs. I can kill anything that doesnt turn and run to cover.

And you can spend 150k C-bills doing it each match. The cost of LRM ammo + Artemis IV is ridiculous. If the weapon was more effective, then it MIGHT be worth it. But to spend 2/3 your winnings on rearming a weapon that is weak at the best of times is a joke.

[AC]

The problem with LRM's was the recycle. You could keep a constant stream of missiles going due to the recycle and that caused a massive amount of knock and did a lot of damage.... and so we ended up with Missile Warrior Online. They should have cut the recycle down to something reasonable and gave them a modest knock reduction and a bit more heat.

It seems PGI only looks at a weapons damage as their primary balancing stat. There is so much more to balancing weapons though. Travel time, recycle time, heat generation, just to name a few. I feel like they miss out on so many opportunities to fine tune things. Gauss Cats wouldn't be as popular if the Gauss had the travel speed of the PPC for example. There is just so much more they could be doing.

[Broceratops]

i think they're fine. the safest and easiest to use weapon in the game should be moderately effective, at best. which they are.

[Kilgore]

TheMightyWashburn, on 19 November 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Some of you dont realize forcing the enemy team to take cover IS HELPING YOUR TEAM. I realize many of you dont know modern military tactics but forcing peopling into cover is called suppression Guess what people in cover cant do effectively? Shoot? yes. Shoot. They cant shoot their lazorz and my team and rush them, they can flank them, or go for the cap. THIS IS CALLED STRATEGY.

It's actually helping the team that's being targeted by LRMs. They're putting themselves into better, more tactical positions instead of camping out in the open.

So one of the guys on your team brings LRMs. He's dedicating himself to being a LRM boat because they need so much ammo to be effective it takes away any other use the mech could have had. To make things worse for your team, he's helping to put the other team into a better defended position.

Beyond that, he's not a target that the enemy has to evaluate as a threat on the front line. It becomes easier for your actual brawlers to be targeted for assisted fire so they don't last as long.

And ton for ton, the one light mech on the enemy team is going to take your LRM boat out of the game, forcing you to sacrifice them or go save them. If you go save them, then those are mechs taken off of the front line which compromises your position even more.

Make one good case for LRMs and i'll make 5 more that invalidate the logic to run them in the first place.

[Kilgore]

Broceratops, on 19 November 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

i think they're fine. the safest and easiest to use weapon in the game should be moderately effective, at best. which they are.

They're not safe to use because you can't defend yourself if ANY mech is in your 180M bubble.

[Joseph Mallan]

ShadowVFX, on 19 November 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

And you can spend 150k C-bills doing it each match. The cost of LRM ammo + Artemis IV is ridiculous. If the weapon was more effective, then it MIGHT be worth it. But to spend 2/3 your winnings on rearming a weapon that is weak at the best of times is a joke.

I have made 23 Million using Artemis equipped LRMs on both an Atlas-D and a Cat-C3(?) in three days. I even empty the 8 tons of ammo the Cat carries almost every game. And I pay for my R&R. My 13 tons of LRM AMMO ran out for the first time yesterday. OpFor played very defensive and I lost lock a lot. Paid 90K for reloads IIRC. Could have been more.

[Kaijin]

TheMightyWashburn, on 19 November 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

I made my first LRM boat yesterday. cat-A1. Just finished customizing it last night. It kills just fine. And even when I dont get a kill I knock most of their armor off, easy to our team to mop them up. Im using 4 lrms 10s & 2 lrm 5s with artemis alone with 1440 LRMs. I can kill anything that doesnt turn and run to cover.

But you can only die when something get's inside 180m. I do so love encountering all these apologists who carry around 3X the launchers to do the same damage we were getting pre-artemis patch. So I get hit by a few salvos on my way in. I hit the magic number and I've got nothing to worry about because they're nothing but LRM launchers.