94 replies to this topic

[Kurayami]

kinda confusing since i can both put them up to good use and dodge them quite well due to experience.
currently they are lawn darts. not by numbers - 1.7 damage and buffs from artemis\tag should still make them fearsome weapon... but they are not. so i can only assume that something is still wrong with implementation of said numbers. From my fatlas experience it looks like half of missiles simply wont do any damage while perfectly hitting me.

to compare - 2xlrm15 salvo on fatlas without tag (before artemis introduction) would shave about 3%% off (up to 5% with tag). sometimes less sometimes more - depends on location so atlas would survive about 20-25 salvos (% count on whole body while lrms will hti only upper body on stationary target) from me alone which is seems normal and actually is normal.

now problems started with introduction of assault class missile boats - say hello to doubled amount of missiles per salvo and nonstop cabin rocking while still running cool and with full compliment of assault mech armor and backup weapons. result - 10 salvos. now add another one or 2 and any target will die in 3 volleys max. add to this weird ams and transparent maps - this was seriously wrong BUT not because LRM by itself were overpowered but because of way people used them (proper matchmaker would not allow to have more than 1 or 2 of lrm boats, proper c3 system would limit indirect fire capability, proper tag would force to use expensive ammo etc and sheer amount of hits resulted in granted heavy crits, or they could just introduce closer to cannon customization with mount points size like in LL so an atlas couldn't mount more than 1 lrm launcher etc ) and game bugs (transparent maps, insane ams etc)

but now same 2xLRM15 WITH Artemis AND TAG shave 1-3% - sorry but this is plain wrong to have such damage spread on standing perfectly still biggest target currently implemented ingame (both without AMS) while using both support systems! i dont ask for KILL IT button - all i want is to have tactical weapon - not some fireworks launcher.

another example. my fast fatlas teared thru 2 hbk and 1 cent all while being showered by 45 lrm build fatlas missile boat. i didnt used cover or dodged them - i was too busy with hbks\cent all i had is ams and 1k of ammo. result? since there were no rocking at all i lined up my shots and killed all 3 meds in a couple of minutes with medium damage. think for a second - few minutes under heavy lrm fire with perfect lock on me AND direct los (about 600m) in the open and i still end up with medium damage! is this how they supposed to work? i don't think so.

but then again when i use them they somehow manage to damage opponents better then described above so what i propose is to OVERHAUL LRM systems since im pretty sure while they are slightly underpowered now, they are also heavily bugged.

Edited by Kurayami, 19 November 2012 - 11:53 AM.

[River Walker]

LRM are hard hiting when they are used in grop fire.

I have been drop where a laces of Mech with LRM held off are side for all most 5 minuets and we lost Mechs just trying to move from cover to cover.

LRM Rain is not fun to deal with if what you are dealing with is a Mix lance with LRM and SSRM and small laser HB that kill off the scouts
I do think the Ammo price for LRM is insane and is the number one reason why I drop my LRM Cat.

Edited by River Walker, 19 November 2012 - 11:59 AM.

[Sevaradan]

River Walker, on 19 November 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

LRM Rain is not fun to deal with if what you are dealing with is a Mix lance with LRM and SSRM and small laser bouts HB.

I enjoy lrm rain its fun drawing fire and pulling back into cover making em waste missiles. I run an atlas with nothing longer ranged than an ac20 and baiting LRMs is how I contribute in long range engagements.

[Kaijin]

Kurayami, on 19 November 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

problems started with introduction of assault class missile boats - say hello to doubled amount of missiles per salvo and nonstop cabin rocking while still running cool and with full compliment of assault mech armor and backup weapons.

This was the turning point. Drops restricted by tonnage or class would significantly reduce the chances you'd see even one of these on the field. If there are only 2 assault-class mechs allowed per team, how many teams are going to make them both LRM boats? Odds are near to none, and the indirect fire support role will be picked up by heavy-class and medium-class mechs, which is more conventional. What PGI has done though - nerfing LRMs so that only mechs sporting 3 or more LRM15s (or the equivalent) are doing significant damage - that's bad.

[Sevaradan]

Kaijin, on 19 November 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

This was the turning point. Drops restricted by tonnage or class would significantly reduce the chances you'd see even one of these on the field. If there are only 2 assault-class mechs allowed per team, how many teams are going to make them both LRM boats? Odds are near to none, and the indirect fire support role will be picked up by heavy-class and medium-class mechs, which is more conventional. What PGI has done though - nerfing LRMs so that only mechs sporting 3 or more LRM15s (or the equivalent) are doing significant damage - that's bad.

I love assault missile boats when I play my brawler atlas, guaranteed easy kills as soon as I close range on them with out even loosing much armor. Currently, I have no difficulty dictating the range of engagements (either by pushing the mechs directly or fighting on their cap forcing em to stand in the red square).

Edited by Sevaradan, 19 November 2012 - 12:10 PM.

[Kaijin]

Sevaradan, on 19 November 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

I love assault missile boats when I play my brawler atlas, guaranteed easy kills as soon as I close range on them with out even loosing much armor. Currently, I have no difficulty dictating the range of engagements (either by pushing the mechs directly or fighting on their cap forcing em to stand in the red square).

If it weren't for them being a sign of badly broken LRMs, I would love my encounters with Catapult A1s stuffed to the gills with LRM launchers and nothing else. I just put them out of my misery with my Jenner or brawler Cat.

[Lanessar]

They need a slight increase in damage, (probably up to 1.75 or 1.85) and Artemis grouping should be as it was pre-patch. The problem was with the flight paths arcing up, up, up and then straight down, and flying through cover to make headshots like mad - not particularly the damage or grouping.

[Wispsy]

TAG and NARC have the exact same effect, NARC lasts 15 seconds but is a missile TAG lasts 1 second but is a laser and you only need put the circle in the big red square to make it work (just like keeping lrm lock), both work with artemis.
Missiles kill things, yes it takes longer then 10 seconds if you are doing it alone....unless they are a light/medium ofc. Honestly how can people assume a weapon which has such great tactical advantages would be balanced if it could core an atlas in the time it took him to move 100/150m....just by boating it, no need for aiming at anything smaller then a 2cm box :/

Edited by Wispsy, 19 November 2012 - 12:36 PM.

[Kurayami]

Wispsy, on 19 November 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

...

well sorry but boating ac5, uac5, ac10 ,gauss, ll, ppc etc requires me to just line up shots in general direction of the enemy to achieve better than lrm results now. or do you think ppc\ac5 builds emerged amass because of dhs? before nerfs noone bothered with ac2 or ppc or even ac5 - gauss and lrm worked just fine for anything when handled right. now almost every match i see someone boating ppc and some mechs with AC's while i find diversity a good thing, im also painfuly aware that this diversity achived not because said weapons become were overhauled and now usable and competitive but because most common alternative was gutted down with nerfs and bugs. so now we have gauss as godhand weapon and everything else down in the gutter.

[Solis Obscuri]

LRMs are working great - I really don't see why people aren't using them. The pathing is very good and the damage is fine at 1.7.

I think a lot of people just read whatever the current forum hysteria is and change all their loadouts according to it, without actually testing anything, which is why LRMs went from being a ubiquitous boated weapon to being almost non-existent in most PUG matches overnight.


Oh, and don't underestimate the lethality of lawn darts.

[Kurayami]

Solis Obscuri, on 19 November 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

...

it is working kinda not like it should. for starters i think single launcher should pose more treat, but i also think that quantity of said launcher should be strictly limited. This way there will be no need in extensive boating for lrm to work "great" and noone will be able to amass them to the point of killing anything with less than 5-7 salvos. a VERY good system was introduced in LL where mount points were restricted by size - not true to TT but i realy doubt that any fluff ever mentioned dual gauss cat or 55 lrm fatlas etc. this way force diversity while allowing to have a very interesting and deadly weapons instead of dumbed down nerfed to the ground flashlights and fireworks.

[Wispsy]

Kurayami, on 19 November 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

well sorry but boating ac5, uac5, ac10 ,gauss, ll, ppc etc requires me to just line up shots in general direction of the enemy to achieve better than lrm results now. or do you think ppc\ac5 builds emerged amass because of dhs? before nerfs noone bothered with ac2 or ppc or even ac5 - gauss and lrm worked just fine for anything when handled right. now almost every match i see someone boating ppc and some mechs with AC's while i find diversity a good thing, im also painfuly aware that this diversity achived not because said weapons become were overhauled and now usable and competitive but because most common alternative was gutted down with nerfs and bugs. so now we have gauss as godhand weapon and everything else down in the gutter.

They work differently to the direct fire projectile weapons. Deal with it.

[Kurayami]

they are not working at all until amassed into assault boat - is that what you call "working differently to direct fire projectile weapons"? as for "deal with it" - im pretty much ok with anything - i have like whole game of alternatives, but the way pgi do things amuse me.

[Squigles]

When I fire 2x LRM 15's with Arty, but no Tag or Narc, on an Atlas, it strips about 2-3%.

2 or 3% you say? Unfathomable! Inconceivable! The weapon is FAR too weak when 2 LRM 15's only do 2-3% damage per salvo!!!!!!

.........

For those that know, 2-3% on your average Atlas is 20-30 damage (Armor + Internals is roughly 1K points). So, a 8T weapon (LRM 15+Arty) is doing between 10 and 15 damage per shot. Or .294 damage per ton per second to .441 damage per ton per second.

Lets compare to a Gauss rifle, which does .25 damage per ton per second. How about an AC 10, that does .333 damage per ton per second. Large laser? That's .423 damage per ton per second (before heatsinks).

All in all, the actual damage the weapon is doing per ton invested, before seeing any assistance from Tag or Narc, is very much on par with the other big weapons systems. The difference is it's spread all over the blasted place, unlike the other weapons. This is what the weapon is DESIGNED to do. Attempting to push it's damage to the point where you're splitting open the mech and killing it with solely LRM's (Which means you're actually gutting 3 torso locations), in just a few salvo's, is just silly.

[Wispsy]

Kurayami, on 19 November 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

they are not working at all until amassed into assault boat - is that what you call "working differently to direct fire projectile weapons"? as for "deal with it" - im pretty much ok with anything - i have like whole game of alternatives, but the way pgi do things amuse me.

I do acceptably in my LRM Raven (and that is not really the optimal use for them imo) and have seen many half lrm builds and full lrm focused boats do very well consistently, utilizing their advantages.

[Shadowsword8]

Kilgore, on 19 November 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

They're not safe to use because you can't defend yourself if ANY mech is in your 180M bubble.

Bad argument. You could say the same of any short range weapon against mid-long range situations.

And if something is within your 180m, just ignore it and let your teammates deal with it. Or use your medium lasers or something.

[Kaijin]

Shadowsword8, on 19 November 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

Bad argument. You could say the same of any short range weapon against mid-long range situations.

And if something is within your 180m, just ignore it and let your teammates deal with it. Or use your medium lasers or something.

So your teammates should be spending all their time defending the LRMs? And medium lasers? Who's got room for them unless the LRM mech in question is a Fatlas? There's an apologist in the forum who brags about all the LRM damage he's pulling down with his Catapult C4 with 4 LRM15s. "You must be running stock armor, minimal HS, a small engine, and nothing for short range then", I told him. Which was pretty much right. His Cat's not glacially slow, but not speedy either, it has stock armor, and for short range - 2 SL. A whopping 6-point alpha he's got to defend himself with and he considers it a good build.

[Lanessar]

Squigles, on 19 November 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

When I fire 2x LRM 15's with Arty, but no Tag or Narc, on an Atlas, it strips about 2-3%.

2 or 3% you say? Unfathomable! Inconceivable! The weapon is FAR too weak when 2 LRM 15's only do 2-3% damage per salvo!!!!!!

..........

I don't think the percentage health is a good measure, THB. That percentage is made up of armor, internals, weapon or item health... I've killed mechs with 75% health with focused fire, and I've had targets go to 8% and still take me down. I'm therefore highly dubious of "mech health percentage" as a number.

[Khobai]

LRMs are useless. And 0.1 damage isnt goinig to fix them.

[JebusGeist]

LRMs have killed mechs, lawn darts have actually killed real people, and I see no "both" option in the poll.