351 replies to this topic

[Rejarial Galatan]

whether somethign has limited use or not, should have no effect on something be 'bothered' with. Its like saying: Well, that EPIRB has a limited use, namely only when it goes under water, dont bother with it. what are the odds of that happening anyway?.......

[Sassori]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Coolant_Pod

One time use, for one turn in TT which would be... about 3 seconds judging by the LRM recycle time in MW:O. If they get hit, they are 10 to 20 points of internal damage explosion, and take up critical spaces.

So you can choose to take a fully functional heat sink, which works every turn, and doesn't /explode/ when hit, or you can take a coolant pod, in 7 years, as they're not even experimental till 3056.

Otherwise, this particular topic is pointless, and has no bearing on the real topic of the thread.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Dayson, I dont know if this was your intent, but you danced me into a fun comparison, for that, thank you. Saying bringing a coolant truck into a fight is a risk. One, that I accept. The comparison is this: is it not a risk to have a few<or> more tons of ammunition on a mech? Please, correct me if I am wrong here, BUT, wouldnt a sudden critical into a lets say FULL ammunition magazine in a mech be just as unhealthy for a mech? No one says, or would say: ammo is too big a risk, it shouldnt be considered. Look, for me, and this is JUST me here. Id risk being next to a coolant truck for a few moments sooner than risk bringing several tons of volatile ammo on my mech. Gauss slugs? sure, they are just hunks of metal, slight risk from them turning into slag, but no more risk than that from the ammo of a GAUSS rifle. Missiles? AC round? chemical propulsion yes? risk. Do what you gotta do to have fun, and I will do the same. But, coolant trucks are an acceptable risk to this pilot. just as ammo is to others. Fair comparison yes? <readies for onslaught of those saying I am wrong some how>

[Owl Cutter]

The MW games that had a "coolant flush" feature suggested that flushing coolant immediately drops your operating temperature. I dunno about you, but to me the most bloody obvious explanation is that the operating principle is rapid phase change. ...you know, since no dumping of any amount of mass at any temperature is going to cool your 'mech unless that discarded mass somehow takes on some extra heat on the way out. I suggested phase change-based cooling a long time ago, so what's wrong with that explanation?

The high tendency of the coolant used for this purpose to rapidly evaporate on release probably powers the fluff behind the canonical pods and their "all at once" use, but it could also work for a standard, non-dangerously volatile system that exists in this game's timeframe and can be used a little bit at a time. When we're talking about thirty-first century machines wielding death rays, I think being able to safely contain some liquefied air (or whatever would make the most sense for this application- CFCs, I guess?) should be trivial.

More importantly... I am hoping that, if such a feature is implemented, that you will be able to trade it for something else. Want to run a cool ballistic setup? ...or, you know, practice some fire discipline? Great, trade that "get out of jail free" card for a bit more ammo, or armor, or CASE, or one of them newfangled cockpit modules. It would most likely be one of them modules, since having it occupy tonnage and/or crit space would not fit well into what Piranha's intent seems to be.

[Sassori]

Nice. I'm not going to say you're wrong. Coolant trucks exist, mainly to try and cool down a nuclear reactor before it goes critical due to battle damage after it hobbles back to base. Given that coolant is very much a limited resource on many worlds, and in many situations such as out in the wild or non-developed planet, I don't see many commanders even contemplating sending coolant trucks out into the battle field.

They are unarmed. They are unarmored. Resources devoted to protecting them would be better spent destroying the enemy if they're suitable to field operations to begin with.

None of that has anything to do with coolant pods (Which were those 'reserves' you were talking about before) nor is any of it really appropriate to the topic at hand. I'm not trying to debate with you anymore, your 'cup is full' as you like to say. From this point on I am only pointing out actual timelines and physical rules of the game.

The Economics of Energy vs Ammo is an easy one to make. Heat Sinks may need to be replaced when shot, which adds cost, energy weapons may need to be recalibrated for general maintenance, which adds cost.

Otherwise? You're paying for the ability to fire off good damage at good ranges for very little overall heat which makes balancing a mech that much easier.

Economically, it's an easy fix, if the costs of ammo are even a problem to begin with.

[William Petersen]

Christopher Dayson, on 09 May 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

Well as for the failing spectacularly, I seem to recall it being bad juju when they were shot, and that because of the weight and size of the liquid in the pods they had to be externally mounted? I just recall it not being really good technology and when the data core was found the Star League double heatsink was /way/ better in about every way so it was scrapped. Or maybe I'm thinking of something else.

Either way, it's still situational tech, limited use, and not really worth bothering with.

Well yeah, that's one of their drawbacks. Like taking ammo-based weaponry (it worked just like an ammo explosion; the pod itself had to take a critical hit before being used). I didn't consider them being volatile a 'spectacular failure' of the technology itself. But perhaps you meant the component itself could fail spectacularly, and you're quite right. (Though 10 internal damage isn't *that* much in the grand scheme).

Mmmnope. You're rpetty much on the money. Upgrading to DHSes is perfectly superior is almost every way (crit space muddies the waters a little, but in general, DHSes come out on top). Though Coolant Pods can work with them, too, the effect is not as pronounced.

I will say that clans improved upon the SL DHSes and *still* did research into Coolant Pods, but it didn't really go anywhere. Especially since, as before, they can't get them to work on OmniMechs which, upon invention, became the preeminent BattleMech technology.


Thank you! 3056! I was wondering when they were developed.

[guardian wolf]

Okay Rejarial, you are trying to say that you would like a coolant flush with access to coolant pods correct? Peterson, Dayson, you keep saying that you could use this extra tonnage for heatsinks correct? Well in a manner of speaking, you two are not really arguing about the same thing, all Rejarial wants is to be able to either a) flush coolant from a coolant pod, or use it to increase efficiency, or have a coolant truck to swap out, or flush coolant with. All Dayson and Peterson are basically saying, that while it's possible, not the best idea, so this really is an opinion discussion quiaff? This means that in actuality it is a matter of opinion, and therefore, not able to have factual evidence prove or disprove how one tactic is better than the other. Now, if you were discussing the tactics of said playstyles, this would be more interesting. So, let us switch from how it might, or should be implemented, to if such was implemented, how would you use said items to your advantage, and, opponents' disadvantage?


EDIT: REALLY? IT PUT [[ ]] AS THAT?

IT DID IT AGAIN!!!! ARGH, I GIVE UP!!!

Edited by guardian wolf, 12 May 2012 - 08:23 PM.

[Deathz Jester]

Didn't mechwarrior 3 have coolant flushing?

[Rejarial Galatan]

Guardian Wolf: I like what you said, and before I move on, what exactly is the emoticon you are trying to do? perhaps show the key strokes with alot of space?? ANYWAY... You are right. Either C.Pods or a truck to flush fresh coolant directly into the reactor while removing the hotter coolant or something of the like. Now, how I would use it is: IF Pods: Save the 2-3 seconds of coolant the Pods have for when I am in the death throws of combat when it is me or playerXYZABC, and my NEXT alpha is life or death for me, giving that we are hurt equally bad. Flushing that 2-3 seconds COULD give me the room to alpha for my life. OR, IF truck: while the scouts, mediums and heavies are harrassing the opfor, I could make a dash to the coolant truck or if its an ability call, call the thing to me under some cover, and have it swap my reactors coolant out, then return and rejoin the fight.

[William Petersen]

Iron Harlequin, on 12 May 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

Didn't mechwarrior 3 have coolant flushing?

Yes, and so did 4 and they were both [Blam!] retarded because of it.

Edited by William Petersen, 12 May 2012 - 08:54 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

oh my, calling a game retarded because of ONE of its mechanics, and one that was relatively useful in extreme situations? Then again, I expect this sorta thing from certain parties. Look Petersen, in and of itself, the idea of coolant flushing or using coolant in SOME method to reduce heat and momentarily INCREASE heat loss, is NOT a retarded idea. It in fact is a GOOD idea. But, this is going to turn into a circular argument. Look, in honesty Petersen, you DO NOT like a CF idea, I get that, leave those of us who DO like it, and would LOVE to see SOME iteration of it alone to play in our corner of the sandbox.

[Volthorne]

Rejarial Galatan, on 12 May 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

oh my, calling a game retarded because of ONE of its mechanics, and one that was relatively useful in extreme situations? Then again, I expect this sorta thing from certain parties. Look Petersen, in and of itself, the idea of coolant flushing or using coolant in SOME method to reduce heat and momentarily INCREASE heat loss, is NOT a retarded idea. It in fact is a GOOD idea. But, this is going to turn into a circular argument. Look, in honesty Petersen, you DO NOT like a CF idea, I get that, leave those of us who DO like it, and would LOVE to see SOME iteration of it alone to play in our corner of the sandbox.

Mmmmm... Nope. MW4 was just retarded in general. MW3 had a half-decent Mechlab going for it, the graphics were meh, and the coolant flush broke all the energy boats beyond belief.

I'm going to keep saying this until it gets beaten through your thick skull: Swapping out hot liquid flowing through hot pipes for cold liquid flowing through hot pipes tends to be a really, REALLY stupid idea. Especially if you want your 'mech to keep functioning. Or not explode. Hence, it is something only a complete moron would do.

If you want coolant flushes, you could always go play some MW3/4.

ALSO: Peterson was trying to use B.) (minus the . obviously) as in "option B", except that's the shortcut for sunglasses smiley. Protip, Peterson: use ] instead of ).

Edited by Volthorne, 12 May 2012 - 09:48 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Now, first, thanks on the info on why the sunglasses thing kept showing up. Next up: Show me, please, where I specifically state, run the COLD coolant into the mech through the HOT pipes. IF such a system is implemented I would imagine the folks 1037 years in the future would have thought further than you seem to be. and would have taken into consideration thermal shock, and would have installed a line for sending in cold coolant and a second line to purge the exceptionally HOT fluids. Now, listen volthorne, MW4 was a bad game, but you consistently forget that it was NOT the first one to give us COOLANT flushing. MW3 takes that honor. While, that game has its OWN issues, a coolant system is NOT one of them, and IF it is, decidedly LOW on that list, near if not AT the bottom. I would have thought, that since your a rabid BTU fan, seeing as we are basically at each others throats, something which makes me think your a Jade Falcon at heart, you could have seen the obviously not stated dual line theory. I guess, I gotta get back up on my soap box and preach it again. So, I guess I will. heads up folks, wall of text coming, sorry, but it happens when I preach this stuff...

My fellow Mechwarriors, please listen, I ask you warrior to warrior to listen to what I say. You all have read the numerous posts by me in varying threads on this subject. I guess my meaning keeps getting lost. I honestly do not care one way or another if we VETERANS who probably grew up on the novels, the table top game, the TCG/CCG <your preference on Trading Card Game or Collectable Card Game abbreviation> MechWarrior 2, MechWarrior 2: Ghost Bears Legacy, MechWarrior 2: Mercenaries, MechWarrior 3 and its 'kids' or any/all of the games, first and third person alike use a coolant system. I will not dictate your play, nor should you mine. I do however implore you to think about this, while YES, we make up a good percentage of those who will play this game, there will be those, who come to this game, who have not read a single novel, seen the cartoon, or played ANY of the numerous games. Players who are YOUNG, like not even legal driving age young <16yo +-> who grew up using every cheat, hack, glitch, mod and anything else to cheat games. They grew up playing games on 'easy button' or 'easy mode' or w/e you wish to call it. They do not know the meaning of gritting through the hard stuff and sharpening real skills. My best example comes from World of Warcraft, prior to the launch of the expansion: Cataclysm, it had 12 MILLION+ players, now, not even 2 years after the expansion, they have lost 2 MILLION and continue to lose players. Im sure you have seen the "play for free till lvl 20' banners circling the net. Why did they leave? simple. the game got Vanilla WoW hard again. Take into consideration this: they will NOT know that heat management is critical and when they over heat they shut down, and most likely will die before they can power up again. OR they will find the override and self detonate. They do this enough, they will leave. SOME will learn, most, probably not.

I implore you to think of them warriors, as the untested, the untrained, the unblooded if you will. They must learn, and it must be fun for them, just as it must be for us. Do we want to see them leave because they cannot win because we keep hammering them down? I for one, do not, and will do what I can, to teach what I know, and guide them, as will most of us. BUT, we for their sakes, MUST dull that blade that I see this games learning curve being. I can only hope that the fact I am not seeing a coolant system in the wonderful videos and break downs we have is not a hint at what we will not have in game. IF not an on board coolant system like a Pod, maybe a coolant truck. While some, if not a lot of you disagree with me that a system like this or some incarnation there of should never be in the game, I ask you this: what of those who come to this game, untested in our ways? I know the kneejerk response from some of you: IF we had to learn, they can too! While, I do agree with you, I would hope they have the patience to learn, but, some, as much as it pains me to say this, and probably pains you all to read it: some will not have this patience. The Clans would call it: flushing out of training and being reduced to a lesser caste. I can only speculate on what we will see in the final product, and would hope to see some form of cooling added, by truck or pod, but, again, I hope for the best, and have faith in our developers to do what they see as right, not what we say or think is right.

[Volthorne]

Rejarial Galatan, on 13 May 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

Now, first, thanks on the info on why the sunglasses thing kept showing up. Next up: Show me, please, where I specifically state, run the COLD coolant into the mech through the HOT pipes. IF such a system is implemented I would imagine the folks 1037 years in the future would have thought further than you seem to be. and would have taken into consideration thermal shock, and would have installed a line for sending in cold coolant and a second line to purge the exceptionally HOT fluids.

First, you're welcome for that clarification. Second, it doesn't even matter if there's a second line. As soon as that cold coolant goes into the cooling system (which will have heated up significantly during battle), thermal shock WILL occur, 100% of the time, regardless of two supply lines. Not even tech 1037 years from now can magically solve that problem - unless you can find a way to bypass the laws of thermodynamics.

Rejarial Galatan, on 13 May 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

Now, listen volthorne, MW4 was a bad game, but you consistently forget that it was NOT the first one to give us COOLANT flushing. MW3 takes that honor. While, that game has its OWN issues, a coolant system is NOT one of them, and IF it is, decidedly LOW on that list, near if not AT the bottom. I would have thought, that since your a rabid BTU fan, seeing as we are basically at each others throats, something which makes me think your a Jade Falcon at heart, you could have seen the obviously not stated dual line theory. I guess, I gotta get back up on my soap box and preach it again. So, I guess I will. heads up folks, wall of text coming, sorry, but it happens when I preach this stuff...

Jade Falcon? You're kidding, right? If I was a Jade Falcon at heart, I would have signed on with a Jade Falcon clan, no? I despise all you C(l)anners.

Rejarial Galatan, on 13 May 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

-snip, snip, and, oh yes, SNIP-

Get off that soapbox, this is the wrong place for that. If you want a game that thinks of the kiddies, there are some nice playgrounds over at Activision and DICE. I'm an old school MW2 (vanilla, not Mercs) player. I grew up on overheating and running dry of ammo, until I learned not to do either (mind you, that was way back when I was 5 or 6. If I can learn the hard way at that age...).

Edited by Volthorne, 13 May 2012 - 09:15 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Time for some clarification. I do not mean those JOKE clans running around taking the names of the clans, I mean the REAL Clans. No offense to you folks who for w/e reason decided to try to form a BTU Clan as your own... Back to you Volthorne, Please, look past your nose at what I said. I wasnt saying you or I should/would/will use a coolant system. I am speaking for those who have NEVER: Read a BTU Novel. Played the card game. The table Top game, saw the cartoon, played ANY of the PC/Console games, whos FIRST taste of taking a BattleMech into combat will be THIS game. THEY are for whom I passionately speak for, they are the ones who from the spots in the game mags, the game sites, find this game, and play. Not us, who KNOW what we are doing, but those who are not schooled in what heat means in this game. THEM. the RAW ROOKIES. I shall preach on my soapbox as long as we all think only of the veterans of this universe and continue to ignore the fact those with NO working knowledge of the mechanics from ANY portion of this wonderful universe. Think of them, not ourselves my fellows.

[Zylo]

Volthorne, on 13 May 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

First, you're welcome for that clarification. Second, it doesn't even matter if there's a second line. As soon as that cold coolant goes into the cooling system (which will have heated up significantly during battle), thermal shock WILL occur, 100% of the time. Not even tech 1037 years from now can magically solve that problem.

This is exactly the problem with the coolant temp difference. From a logical point of view the heat generating components would have some sort of heat exchanger built for maximum efficiency under normal operating conditions that would cover the largest surface area possible. Like you said a 2nd line won't make a difference and the reason would be the heat exchangers that are built into or attached to the heat generating systems would be experiencing the thermal shock as the lower temp coolant was pumped into the heat exchanger.

The resulting failure of the heat exchanger seems in line with comments in the sarna coolant pod description.

[Zylo]

Rejarial Galatan, on 13 May 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

Time for some clarification. I do not mean those JOKE clans running around taking the names of the clans, I mean the REAL Clans. No offense to you folks who for w/e reason decided to try to form a BTU Clan as your own... Back to you Volthorne, Please, look past your nose at what I said. I wasnt saying you or I should/would/will use a coolant system. I am speaking for those who have NEVER: Read a BTU Novel. Played the card game. The table Top game, saw the cartoon, played ANY of the PC/Console games, whos FIRST taste of taking a BattleMech into combat will be THIS game. THEY are for whom I passionately speak for, they are the ones who from the spots in the game mags, the game sites, find this game, and play. Not us, who KNOW what we are doing, but those who are not schooled in what heat means in this game. THEM. the RAW ROOKIES. I shall preach on my soapbox as long as we all think only of the veterans of this universe and continue to ignore the fact those with NO working knowledge of the mechanics from ANY portion of this wonderful universe. Think of them, not ourselves my fellows.

These "RAW ROOKIES" you *claim* to be fighting for wouldn't know the difference if coolant flush was in or not. It's still quite clear that you want systems in MWO that you have come to rely on in past games.

The best way to teach these new players is by having a good place for them to try out mech designs (like a no-score, no-cost training arena) without needing to actually go into a normal match to learn. Giving them a "I fail at controlling my heat" button won't teach them heat management but will instead promote reliance on a system rather than learning heat control.

[Rejarial Galatan]

I am not sure if reading your post anyway even though I have you blocked, was a smart thing, as you failed totally Zylo. You assume I mean a NONSTOP cooling system akin to the heat sinks. No. look for my posts surat, and see that every time I mention cooling, I say 2-3 SECONDS worth of coolant and that is IT, then its empty. You also assume that I rely on these systems myself, which, I do not. In all my matches online and in campaign on MW4, I have used the coolant flush a dozen or so times in the last DECADE. You call me a liar, have fun, think your trollish thoughts. What you also fail to see is that having SOME iteration of this system is actually more likely to produce better energy weapon pilots than NOT having it. BS you say! I can prove it. At first, they WILL default right into using it, then, run out, then overheat and die one way or another. Next time around, they slow up a touch on the weapons, THEN default, over heat, die, And around they go until they find the butter zone of fire power, fire time, and suddenly coolant is an after thought, then, once they master it, its pretty much ignored. I honestly do not know what to make of you Zylo. I assume your a rational and intelligent person, you DO like this universe after all, BUT, you keep making these wild assumptions, assumptions, you have no proof to back them, other than my constant trying to reason with people whos cups are obviously full. As Moat says: "it is hard to fill a cup that is already full. We shall see if we can cure your insanity." props to those of you who KNOW this scene and what movie its from.

[Volthorne]

I could quote everything he said, if you'd like, Rejarial. But your cup is already filled, so what's the point. Hard to teach an old dog new tricks (or in this case, an old Canner proper reasoning).

Yes, I'm purposefully misspelling "Clanner" as "Canner".

[William Petersen]

Volthorne, on 13 May 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

First, you're welcome for that clarification. Second, it doesn't even matter if there's a second line. As soon as that cold coolant goes into the cooling system (which will have heated up significantly during battle), thermal shock WILL occur, 100% of the time, regardless of two supply lines. Not even tech 1037 years from now can magically solve that problem - unless you can find a way to bypass the laws of thermodynamics.


Jade Falcon? You're kidding, right? If I was a Jade Falcon at heart, I would have signed on with a Jade Falcon clan, no? I despise all you C(l)anners.


Get off that soapbox, this is the wrong place for that. If you want a game that thinks of the kiddies, there are some nice playgrounds over at Activision and DICE. I'm an old school MW2 (vanilla, not Mercs) player. I grew up on overheating and running dry of ammo, until I learned not to do either (mind you, that was way back when I was 5 or 6. If I can learn the hard way at that age...).

The bold statements conflict in my head. @_@

RE Underlined: /hugs