336 replies to this topic

[Child3k]

TopDawg, on 21 November 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I think it's pretty obvious that SSRMs are too powerful now. I'd say it's hotfix worthy, but I'm not sure how they're going to balance it. A ~25% decrease in damage wouldn't be a bad start.

I'm not so sure about that. Streaks are really only a big deal if massed onto one mech - at the same time, robbing that mech of versatility. On the other hand, if streak get nerfed like you proposed (25% less damage) it would probably make them pretty useless for their usual purpose which is: Hitting and damaging lights. See - if I got like one or two missile HPs free and want to field something counter-light I choose streaks cause thats what they're made for. But if they only scratch the enemy mechs without leaving a dent on them, I'm pretty sure I'd try to use that tonnage otherwise ...

Edited by Child3k, 21 November 2012 - 07:14 AM.

[Straylight]

Redshift2k5, on 21 November 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

4 SSRM cats have a problem if they run headlong into 6-8 enemy mechs; but I suspect the 4 streakcats are singling out a solitary target, vaporizing him with 144 streak missiles(per volley) and then moving to the next easy target.

Anything has a problem if it runs into upwards of half the enemy team. Ever watched an Atlas dissolve into a pool of slag in four seconds? I have.

Even a lone Streakcat can effectively remove an enemy from the fight, either by killing it or be rendering it unable to effectively return fire. DPS is meaningless in this instance; the Cat wins the momentary advantage by nullifying his opponent's effective fighting capability and can keep up the process long enough to win nearly any 1:1 fight.

[Jukebox1986]

Straylight, on 21 November 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

Even a lone Streakcat can effectively remove an enemy from the fight, either by killing it or be rendering it unable to effectively return fire. DPS is meaningless in this instance; the Cat wins the momentary advantage by nullifying his opponent's effective fighting capability and can keep up the process long enough to win nearly any 1:1 fight.

Excuse me, but how does the streak-cat pulles that move? A little shaking keeps you unable to fight?

Please explain this point, it makes no sense to me.

[Dimento Graven]

Alexandrix, on 20 November 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

I agree that jenners(i don't see the same issues killing ravens/coms) have had a broken advantage,I agree that hit detection/netcode is complete garbage,I agree the the streak cat is a hard counter to squirrels.

But,please....seriously...stop pretending killing anything in a streakcat is difficult...because it's not.I have an A1 streakboat in my hangar,I've used it enough to get up to master module(along with 2 other cats).It is BY FAR the easiest mech in the game to absolutely dominate with.Gaussapult at least takes a tiny amount of skill to aim,and a higher amount of skill to actually be good with.

Want to know how to win with a streak cat?
1.get within 270m(which isn't hard running 74+ KPH with an XL300+)(don't pretend it is)
2.hover reticle in general vicinity of opponent
3.Hold down mouse button
4.watch the pretty explosions

That's it.If that's difficult for you,then I don't get how you tie your shoes by yourself in the mornings.Just admit it's stupidly broken and stop trying to act like it's not,in some pseudo defense of your OP toy.

It's fine to admit something you use is OP,there's nothing anyone can do about it anyways,and you admitting it's broken isn't going to suddenly send the devs into a frenzy to nerf it.If they are going to nerf it,the will regardless of how any of us feel about it.

You're so full of melodramatic BS that I bet you live in Herford, TX...

The fact is it's not difficult against unskilled, lazy light pilots who run straight at you, or run with very few manuevers. However, against SKILLED light pilots, and there's quite a few of them out there, who run in zig-zag patterns, randomly, taking advantage of lag shield, bad net code, and targeting that won't lock unless the targeting reticule is kept within the inner 75% of the target box, it's VERY difficult to maintain lock, ESPECIALLY at close range, where all the light pilot has to do is run into your legs and circle BELOW your ability to target.

Sorry you don't get as much of a free ride in fighting heavier 'mechs as you used to get, but until they re-introduce tripping, and until they fix the netcode, you're still enjoying a better than you should have chance against larger 'mechs.

[Straylight]

Janus Wealth, on 21 November 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

Excuse me, but how does the streak-cat pulles that move? A little shaking keeps you unable to fight?

Yes, actually.

A streak hit produces enough jitter at the crosshair to skew lasers off-target and cause ballistics to miss entirely. Repeated, sustained streak hits make holding the crosshair on a specific component (like a Catapult's ears) effectively impossible. At best, you end up scattering your damage all over the Cat, while Streak tracking allows him to hammer one or two components over and over.

Also remember that if his opening volley takes your arm off or otherwise guts a location that had a weapon in it, he again lessens your ability to return fire. Add in the shake, and the chances that he's going to start crippling your systems before you start crippling his increase further.

For me, there's also the additional issue that the combination of smoke, fire blossoms, shake, and HUD flicker causes my framerate to drag sufficiently that I can't aim anyway. This is getting better every patch, but it's still an issue and less powerful boxen are something that PGI needs to continue accounting for.

[Asmosis]

TopDawg, on 21 November 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

Four of any kind of, let's call it a 'specialty Mech', will be able to do that, though. It's not exactly the best example, but it's obvious SSRMs are in need of toning down. I would also add LRMs to that as well.

A serious question, one that I asked earlier, for anyone in this thread: Is there anything currently in game that can keep pace damage wise with LRMs or SSRMs?

SSRMs only do slightly more DPS than a med laser. infact there are very few weapons that do *Less* DPS than a streak launcher.

med laser
small laser
machine gun
flamer
srm2

every other weapon in the game has a highr dps, although they have a harder time maintaining it.

Straylight, on 21 November 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

Yes, actually.

A streak hit produces enough jitter at the crosshair to skew lasers off-target and cause ballistics to miss entirely. Repeated, sustained streak hits make holding the crosshair on a specific component (like a Catapult's ears) effectively impossible. At best, you end up scattering your damage all over the Cat, while Streak tracking allows him to hammer one or two components over and over.

It is more difficult to aquire aim, but if you pay attention you'll notice your shots still shoot straight and true when your cockpit is shaking violently all over the place. crosshairs only move if you try to counterbalance by moving your mouse.

Edited by Asmosis, 21 November 2012 - 07:27 AM.

[Glucose]

I think the fix here is to reduce the cockpit shake on SSRM2s. They purposely chain fire these things so you are disabled and cannot fire back. Lasers don't have that issue.

[Asmosis]

some people are going to have kittens when they realise streak LRM's are coming.

[Snib]

Asmosis, on 21 November 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

SSRMs only do slightly more DPS than a med laser. infact there are very few weapons that do *Less* DPS than a streak launcher.

med laser
small laser
machine gun
flamer
srm2

And that's ignoring AMS, which effectively reduces missile DPS quite a bit. SRM2 has the same theoretical dps as SSRM2 though.

Edited by Snib, 21 November 2012 - 08:06 AM.

[Straylight]

Asmosis, on 21 November 2012 - 07:25 AM, said:

SSRMs only do slightly more DPS than a med laser. infact there are very few weapons that do *Less* DPS than a streak launcher.

every other weapon in the game has a highr dps, although they have a harder time maintaining it.

DPS is irrelevant unless you also specify the time interval in question. With a nod to TT, what's the damage output-over-time for 6 SSRM-2s over ten seconds compared to, say, a pair of Gauss Rifles?

EDIT: Or, better idea: what's the damage output-over-time for the maximum sustained firing time of the weapons in question? Assuming bog-standard Streakcat and Gausscat examples and that "maximum sustained firing time" is firing all weapons as quickly as they'll cycle, until you either run out of ammo or overheat.

Quote

It is more difficult to aquire aim, but if you pay attention you'll notice your shots still shoot straight and true when your cockpit is shaking violently all over the place. crosshairs only move if you try to counterbalance by moving your mouse.

You mean moving your mouse, like you do when you're trying to track a moving target, while moving yourself, while trying to spread incoming damage around your torso?

Yeah, because standing still in front of a Streakcat sounds like a great idea...

Glucose, on 21 November 2012 - 07:29 AM, said:

I think the fix here is to reduce the cockpit shake on SSRM2s. They purposely chain fire these things so you are disabled and cannot fire back. Lasers don't have that issue.

I'd like to see the "impact" effects of weapons tied to the mass of the target, personally. An AC/2 hit should rock a Commando (who just lost about 2% of his armor) a lot more than it should rock an Atlas (who just lost around 3/10th of a percent).

And yes, I'd like to see the shake effects of SRMs turned down a little. For the sake of my poor GPU if nothing else.

Edited by Straylight, 21 November 2012 - 07:42 AM.

[JayVrb]

I think Streaks are more balanced now than ever. Now before people start raging on me saying "OmgZorZ of course you like them cause you're tEh StReak CatZ, RoFL TURDZORZ!", I don't own a boat, just a Cat w/ 2x Streaks, LRM15, LRM20, and 2 Medium Lasers. I played one pre-pre-pre patch and it was fun, but I felt cheap.

Anyways, before their first adjust the 100% center torso thing was a bit much. Then they patched and I had Streaks flying in between the legs of Atlases and Awesomes... in fact, they just came out of my rocket pods laughing at me when I fired them at a scout. NOW they spread their damage and "hit 100%" of the time (even though I still don't believe that), just like they were designed to do.

Trust me, it is FRUSTRATING coming up against a Streak Cat. And I've been mopped up by them numerous times, but there's numerous ways to beat them so figure it out. Good job PGI. Now give me my Ultra AC20.

Edited by Vrbas, 21 November 2012 - 07:46 AM.

[JayVrb]

[Force Majeure]

I agree.
At least, they don't miss an Atlas standing still at 50m anymore...

[Snib]

Straylight, on 21 November 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

...I don't think "troll" means what you think it does.

Anyway, I'm not trolling. I really do want to see a video of a lance of coordinated Streakcats accomplishing nothing in a match, if such as thing exists. I think both sides of this "zomg Streaks!!1!" argument are stupid and I'd like to see the issue put to bed one way or another.

All that would prove is that there were 4 terrible players in streak cats.

Straylight, on 21 November 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

DPS is irrelevant unless you also specify the time interval in question.

DPS = damage per second

Straylight, on 21 November 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

With a nod to TT, what's the damage output-over-time for 6 SSRM-2s over ten seconds compared to, say, a pair of Gauss Rifles?

Why would you compare a full mech loadout to half a loadout? Anyway, 6 SSRM2 can cause up to 90 damage within 10 seconds, exactly the same as 2 Gauss. But then a Gaussapult typically runs 2 ML in addition.

[Dimento Graven]

Straylight, on 21 November 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

DPS is irrelevant unless you also specify the time interval in question. With a nod to TT, what's the damage output-over-time for 6 SSRM-2s over ten seconds compared to, say, a pair of Gauss Rifles?

Irrelevant as a gauss rifle hits from over 1000m, ALWAYS hits for full force, is not affected by AMS, requires no lock to hit.

Quote

You mean moving your mouse, like you do when you're trying to track a moving target, while moving yourself, while trying to spread incoming damage around your torso?

No, like you're trying to compensate for the vibration of the hits. You can still aim through missle, AC, gauss shake, if the target and you are moving in predictable manner, just continue the smooth mouse movements you would if you weren't being shaken. The cockpit shake doesn't alter the location of where you're aiming in the least. It's an affect that is meant to disorrient you.

Quote

Yeah, because standing still in front of a Streakcat sounds like a great idea...

Agreed, it's a bad idea, especially since the missles come out the front. Approach from the sides or rear and none of the streak carriers weapons are a problem.

Quote

I'd like to see the "impact" effects of weapons tied to the mass of the target, personally. An AC/2 hit should rock a Commando (who just lost about 2% of his armor) a lot more than it should rock an Atlas (who just lost around 3/10th of a percent).

This is not a bad idea actually. A lighter target has a lower mass ratio and therefore should suffer greater rocking. I like it.

Quote

And yes, I'd like to see the shake effects of SRMs turned down a little. For the sake of my poor GPU if nothing else.

I disagree with this, I doubt my GPU is any better than yours. My PC is apparently near the "minimal" specs required to run this game. I never get above 15fps, but that won't be something I have to live with forever, I'll upgrade soon, so why put in a patch that will actually benefit those people already on a more modern machine more capable of handling the shakes? Screw 'em I say.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 21 November 2012 - 07:51 AM.

[JayVrb]

Indeed, that was annoying. I just got tired of seeing a lot of feedback that was distasteful and borderline hatred, I figure more of us out there need to tell PGI what they are doing RIGHT than what WE THINK they've done wrong. Don't get me wrong, constructive criticism is good and it's only going to make the game better to point out shortcomings and flaws, but give them some credit every now and then.

Edited by Vrbas, 21 November 2012 - 07:55 AM.

[TopDawg]

Janus Wealth, on 21 November 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

If you let 4 cats close enough to you without at least damaging them, youre doing it wrong. 4 streakcats moving together should be easily spotted, and then either engaged at long range, harassed and divided or avoided.

But i know that PUGs and teamwork/sharing information dont really go together.


Your kidding, right? LRM´s are quite fine. not perfect, but good.

I regularly watch an LRM boat (4xLRM 15 + Artemis and 2x Med Laser) top 1,000 damage a game. I nearly top damage every game when in an A1 (6x SSRM 2), by more than double the damage of everyone else.

I realize these are PUGs and not fully coordinated, nor is it competitive play. I also realize pure damage is not the be all end all metric; but there's something to be said when two players can pump out around 2k damage all by themselves.

Perhaps LRMs are mostly fine then, but SSRMs certainly need to be toned down.

Child3k, on 21 November 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

I'm not so sure about that. Streaks are really only a big deal if massed onto one mech - at the same time, robbing that mech of versatility. On the other hand, if streak get nerfed like you proposed (25% less damage) it would probably make them pretty useless for their usual purpose which is: Hitting and damaging lights. See - if I got like one or two missile HPs free and want to field something counter-light I choose streaks cause thats what they're made for. But if they only scratch the enemy mechs without leaving a dent on them, I'm pretty sure I'd try to use that tonnage otherwise ...

They would still deal damage to Light Mechs and fulfill the role of scaring them away. SSRMs have a 100% chance to hit; that's going to hurt a Light Mech no matter what.



Perhaps it would not be as big a deal if the netcode were going to magically be fixed in the foreseeable future. But a Christmas Miracle aside, SSRMs are guaranteed damage, every time, no matter what. DPS matters, but in the game's current state it doesn't matter how good you are - you will never achieve the theoretical DPS.

I guess I honestly don't understand why people are trying to defend SSRMs so fervently?

[Dimento Graven]

TopDawg, on 21 November 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

I regularly watch an LRM boat (4xLRM 15 + Artemis and 2x Med Laser) top 1,000 damage a game. I nearly top damage every game when in an A1 (6x SSRM 2), by more than double the damage of everyone else.

Some movies please, or I assume you're lying.

Quote

I realize these are PUGs and not fully coordinated, nor is it competitive play. I also realize pure damage is not the be all end all metric; but there's something to be said when two players can pump out around 2k damage all by themselves.

Perhaps LRMs are mostly fine then, but SSRMs certainly need to be toned down.



They would still deal damage to Light Mechs and fulfill the role of scaring them away. SSRMs have a 100% chance to hit; that's going to hurt a Light Mech no matter what.



Perhaps it would not be as big a deal if the netcode were going to magically be fixed in the foreseeable future. But a Christmas Miracle aside, SSRMs are guaranteed damage, every time, no matter what. DPS matters, but in the game's current state it doesn't matter how good you are - you will never achieve the theoretical DPS.

I guess I honestly don't understand why people are trying to defend SSRMs so fervently?

Mostly because when PGI nerfs something, they tend to nerf it in such totally and utterly savage manner, the item that was nerfed tends to have nerfed into near uselessness, ala: LRMs.

Thontor, on 21 November 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

144? We don't have SSRM6s yet.

Max of 48 missiles per volley of 4 streak cats

Maximum damage possible is 120 points per volley, and yes, that evaporate any light 'mech, and severly hurt any medium 'mech.

Working as intended...

Oh, and movies or it didn't happen...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 21 November 2012 - 08:10 AM.

[Henry Pride]

Forget about Streak Cats... Anyone played against a Cataphract with 2 UAC5 and 2 AC2?

Thats something to moan about

*irony mode*

Btw. If u play in a premade group, and ur just a bit trained and skilled u can take out most of the enemies, even if there are Streak Cats....

[DegeneratePervert]

The problem isn't the missiles themselves, they're fine and balanced. The issue is the catapult. Anyone else notice that Cats routinely break the game because of their hardpoints?