410 replies to this topic

[shnbwmn]

Not interested in clans, so no

[Diablo48]

feor, on 10 December 2011 - 11:32 PM, said:

Most worlds were allowed to continue on much as they always had with a new flag and a new ruler. To alot of the Invasion corridor worlds the clans were just one more distant Successor Lord to rule over them. In fact, alot of worlds ended up really benefiting from the Clan Invasion, as the Clans brought with them technology, and with local manpower and clan Technician caste expertise, were able to build up the infrastructure of those worlds to levels unheard of since the Second Succession War.

Another related point is that the Clans abhor waste, so they will ensure that the entire population is working for the good of the Clan and has an acceptable living environment, so the lower tiers of the population would be guaranteed work, food, housing, education, and medical care which would previously have been difficult to come by. This alone will provide a major improvement in the quality of life for a large portion of the population, and should also significantly reduce crime rates because desperate people will no longer have to turn to crime to survive.

[feor]

Quote

and should also significantly reduce crime rates because desperate people will no longer have to turn to crime to survive.

That's the one place where the societies of the Inner Sphere probably felt the most culture shock from the Clans. The Clan judicial system is Draconian, to put it lightly, and makes even the Combine or CapCon police forces look like big softies. With the odd twist at the end that if you apologize for your crime (offer Surkai) you'll usually just get a slap on the wrist. Though the tribunal sitting in judgment of you has the right to refuse your surkai if they think you're lying. Long term imprisonment is rare enough in the Clans that out of all of the clans, and all the clan homeworlds, every last long term prisoner is kept on the Texas class battleship Prinz Eugen.

[Slepnir]

Absolutely yes!
our gaming group does both IS and clan and we often fight them against each other (2:1 odds lance VS star) in the tabletop setting. i am always willing to throw down my hells horsemen.
Lota galaxy-the 9th ring of hell

[nobby]

feor, on 10 December 2011 - 11:32 PM, said:

If the labourers disagree with the choice of Khan they can challenge it, yes. They have to fight to prove it, but if they can best the claimant to the Khanship in combat they can refuse his promotion. The warrior may scoff, but if that tech beats them in combat (as humiliating and dishonouring as it would be) they are expected to abide by the results of the battle. (and to not do so would dishonour them even further)



Not even close.
Bondsman is no slave, the Sphereoids interpreted it as such when the Clans were first doing it, but to be taken as a Bondsman is actually a great honour in the Clans. It them saying "We believe you are of value and are willing to let you return to your previous role in life, once you've adjusted to your new home." There was forcible relocation resulting from that, but the only time I'm familiar with that it was widespread was on Sommerset, and that was done by a Star Colonel who was pretty much certifiably insane from the antagonistic contact he had with the Sommerset Strikers plus EI sickness, and the Clans generally frowned on those actions as bordering on outright Dezgra.

Most of the forcible relocations were a few captured mechwarriors, scientists and technicians from each world. I do believe the world whose fate got decided by a Trial of Possession via Football game (American Football) had a single individual taken as bondsman on the planet: the kicker for the home team (the Clanners brought a team of Elementals and were impressed when the kicker actually scored a field goal against them, making the game's score 83-3)

Most worlds were allowed to continue on much as they always had with a new flag and a new ruler. To alot of the Invasion corridor worlds the clans were just one more distant Successor Lord to rule over them. In fact, alot of worlds ended up really benefiting from the Clan Invasion, as the Clans brought with them technology, and with local manpower and clan Technician caste expertise, were able to build up the infrastructure of those worlds to levels unheard of since the Second Succession War.

The fact that any member of the clan from any caste can challenge the decision hardly gives them a say. For their opinion to be heard they have to win a contest in an area that they have no skill in and which the Warrior has been trained in.

Now that hardly seems fair does it? So for all intents and purposes none of the other castes has a say at all because it is unquestionably impossible for them to fairly win a challenge like that.

And as far as bondsmen being slaves, you haven't offered a single reason why they're not. Justifying it by saying they're honoured doesn't change the fact that they are slaves. It's saying "You're good at your job, and now you have to keep doing it for the people who came and killed your people, maybe even your family and friends. Oh and also, you will never see your loved ones again. But it's okay, because we honour you."

Edited by nobby, 12 December 2011 - 06:37 PM.

[Conradiqlous]

I voted yes just because I want the option, not necessarily because I would right away. I am quite partial to the IS.

[Diablo48]

nobby, on 12 December 2011 - 06:35 PM, said:

The fact that any member of the clan from any caste can challenge the decision hardly gives them a say. For their opinion to be heard they have to win a contest in an area that they have no skill in and which the Warrior has been trained in.

Now that hardly seems fair does it? So for all intents and purposes none of the other castes has a say at all because it is unquestionably impossible for them to fairly win a challenge like that.

And as far as bondsmen being slaves, you haven't offered a single reason why they're not. Justifying it by saying they're honoured doesn't change the fact that they are slaves. It's saying "You're good at your job, and now you have to keep doing it for the people who came and killed your people, maybe even your family and friends. Oh and also, you will never see your loved ones again. But it's okay, because we honour you."

Actually, trials between castes are settled by a challenge that both parties are equally skilled/unskilled at to insure a fair trial. A participant could choose to take a challenge they have a disadvantage in for honor, but they are not required to and any maneuvering to force an opponent into a disadvantageous situation will be viewed as a dishonorable act. Of course, trials are still a last resort option so most conflicts between castes will be settled diplomatically by the leaders of both sides.

[feor]

Quote

And as far as bondsmen being slaves, you haven't offered a single reason why they're not. Justifying it by saying they're honoured doesn't change the fact that they are slaves. It's saying "You're good at your job, and now you have to keep doing it for the people who came and killed your people, maybe even your family and friends. Oh and also, you will never see your loved ones again. But it's okay, because we honour you."

They are no more slaves than criminals on a work-release program. They are Prisoners of War on a Work Release program, but that's all they are. They do a good job, they get to return to something like their former life. If they don't perform they get locked up. The culture clash between the Clans and the Inner Sphere in the matter is that the ideal clan warriors tend to aspire to (and I won't say all clan warriors, clanners is people to, and some of them are real douches) is that their first loyalty is to the people of the Clans. And while people tend to think of the Clans as individual entities, in reality they're more like separate provinces of a single nation. They bicker and they feud, but in the end, they are all Clan. Whether you're a Mandrill, a Hellion, or a coked out Goliath Scorpion, your first job is to protect the people of the Clans from harm.

So when a Clan Warrior is taken as Isorla by another Clan, to them, that's only marginally different to being transfered to another unit within your own Clan. You used to be in charge of keeping the people in the green building safe, now your job is to keep the people in the red building safe.

But at the same time, Clan Warriors also believe in martial might as a worthy goal to aspire to, and how can you prove your might without combat? So the Warriors go out and carry out ritualistic combat amongst themselves. To a certain extent warfare in the Clans is just a very large, very dangerous version of the UFC. Warriors fighting to prove themselves and earn glory & spoils for their sponsors. And if you've been defeated in combat your opponent is obviously superior to you and worthy of your fealty, since martial might is the greatest gauge of a warriors esteem. And since you're just defending a different subset of the Clan population if you switch sides there's no reason not to follow your new leader.

What you end up with are two groups of people who do not understand each other at all.

To the Spheroid warrior, he doesn't fight to protect civilians, he fights to protect his civilians. The idea of fighting with people who are/were attacking those civilians is abhorant to him. To the Clanners thinking they are offering him a chance to prove his skill and protect civiliansm it'll just be the civilians in the Jade Falcon buildings. They're still civilians, why would a warrior turn down an opportunity to fight for them? Likewise, during the initial invasion, many Clan warriors (ok, many not "many" but the few that were captured) were dumbfounded when they were captured and locked up without even being offered the chance to prove themselves for their "new clan". Those that were given the opportunity to prove themselves were often found to be more loyal to the house army that had captured them than some of the warriors recruited in that house's systems.

Now, this is the clean cut black and white version of things. As with anything there's a wide range of grays where this doesn't apply exactly. The Issue muddied by "personal honour" and other things which addle the minds of men. (Sometimes with extreme results like warriors committing Bondsref - basically committing suicide rather than letting yourself be captured by a particularly hated enemy)

tl;dr basically it just boils down to a question of cultures. To the Clans, civilians are civilians, whoever's flag they happen to be working under, and warriors should defend them. Being taken as Bondsman to them is no different than being transfered to a new unit, just one with really harsh hazing rituals where you seriously have to prove yourself.

[Diablo48]

feor, on 12 December 2011 - 11:03 PM, said:

tl;dr basically it just boils down to a question of cultures. To the Clans, civilians are civilians, whoever's flag they happen to be working under, and warriors should defend them. Being taken as Bondsman to them is no different than being transfered to a new unit, just one with really harsh hazing rituals where you seriously have to prove yourself.

It is worth mentioning that a very important extension of this is that Clan warriors are very much fighting to keep your civilians safe as well as their own, so unless you do something to endanger the civilian population like dragging the fight into a city, an invading Clan force will make a concerted effort to protect them during the fighting and take care of them after they win.

[nobby]

feor, on 12 December 2011 - 11:03 PM, said:

They are no more slaves than criminals on a work-release program. They are Prisoners of War on a Work Release program, but that's all they are. They do a good job, they get to return to something like their former life. If they don't perform they get locked up. The culture clash between the Clans and the Inner Sphere in the matter is that the ideal clan warriors tend to aspire to (and I won't say all clan warriors, clanners is people to, and some of them are real douches) is that their first loyalty is to the people of the Clans. And while people tend to think of the Clans as individual entities, in reality they're more like separate provinces of a single nation. They bicker and they feud, but in the end, they are all Clan. Whether you're a Mandrill, a Hellion, or a coked out Goliath Scorpion, your first job is to protect the people of the Clans from harm.

So when a Clan Warrior is taken as Isorla by another Clan, to them, that's only marginally different to being transfered to another unit within your own Clan. You used to be in charge of keeping the people in the green building safe, now your job is to keep the people in the red building safe.

But at the same time, Clan Warriors also believe in martial might as a worthy goal to aspire to, and how can you prove your might without combat? So the Warriors go out and carry out ritualistic combat amongst themselves. To a certain extent warfare in the Clans is just a very large, very dangerous version of the UFC. Warriors fighting to prove themselves and earn glory & spoils for their sponsors. And if you've been defeated in combat your opponent is obviously superior to you and worthy of your fealty, since martial might is the greatest gauge of a warriors esteem. And since you're just defending a different subset of the Clan population if you switch sides there's no reason not to follow your new leader.

What you end up with are two groups of people who do not understand each other at all.

To the Spheroid warrior, he doesn't fight to protect civilians, he fights to protect his civilians. The idea of fighting with people who are/were attacking those civilians is abhorant to him. To the Clanners thinking they are offering him a chance to prove his skill and protect civiliansm it'll just be the civilians in the Jade Falcon buildings. They're still civilians, why would a warrior turn down an opportunity to fight for them? Likewise, during the initial invasion, many Clan warriors (ok, many not "many" but the few that were captured) were dumbfounded when they were captured and locked up without even being offered the chance to prove themselves for their "new clan". Those that were given the opportunity to prove themselves were often found to be more loyal to the house army that had captured them than some of the warriors recruited in that house's systems.

Now, this is the clean cut black and white version of things. As with anything there's a wide range of grays where this doesn't apply exactly. The Issue muddied by "personal honour" and other things which addle the minds of men. (Sometimes with extreme results like warriors committing Bondsref - basically committing suicide rather than letting yourself be captured by a particularly hated enemy)

tl;dr basically it just boils down to a question of cultures. To the Clans, civilians are civilians, whoever's flag they happen to be working under, and warriors should defend them. Being taken as Bondsman to them is no different than being transfered to a new unit, just one with really harsh hazing rituals where you seriously have to prove yourself.

Your comparison to work release would work if it were only enemy fighters they enslaved, but it's not. Even if the civilians of a planet don't fight against the clans, as soon as whatever clan takes over lands they strip anyone they want from the planet. Scientists, teachers, doctors mechanics, techs whatever.

People who have done no wrong to the clan whatsoever still get removed from their families and friends unwillingly. Just because the Clans don't see it as slavery doesn't make it so.

I suppose in the end it's something to write off to differing cultures. As a personal opinion though I find it impossible to separate the concept of a Bondsman from the parallels I see with historic slavery.

Look all arguments aside though, I'd just like to point out i don't hate the clans. I think they work well, especially in creating an interesting and varied community.

[The Basilisk]

I think playing clan in a game that comes from the battletech universe, is like playing elves in one of the old Tabletop RPGs. (DSA, AD&D etc)
Either you totally unnerve your fellow players with a honor or dead crying ***** or youre playing an somewhat weirdo IS Pilot with a Clan Mech.
Clans should be NPC

[Shade Spirit]

i would not mind playing in a clan

[Diablo48]

nobby, on 13 December 2011 - 01:58 AM, said:

Your comparison to work release would work if it were only enemy fighters they enslaved, but it's not. Even if the civilians of a planet don't fight against the clans, as soon as whatever clan takes over lands they strip anyone they want from the planet. Scientists, teachers, doctors mechanics, techs whatever.

People who have done no wrong to the clan whatsoever still get removed from their families and friends unwillingly. Just because the Clans don't see it as slavery doesn't make it so.

I suppose in the end it's something to write off to differing cultures. As a personal opinion though I find it impossible to separate the concept of a Bondsman from the parallels I see with historic slavery.

Look all arguments aside though, I'd just like to point out i don't hate the clans. I think they work well, especially in creating an interesting and varied community.

Where did you get the Clans uprooting the civilian populations of planets in anything even remotely resembling large numbers (and no, the cartoon does not count, per canon that was IS propaganda)?

[nobby]

Diablo48, on 13 December 2011 - 02:23 AM, said:

Where did you get the Clans uprooting the civilian populations of planets in anything even remotely resembling large numbers (and no, the cartoon does not count, per canon that was IS propaganda)?

The book Falcon Guard, told from the perspective of Aidan Pryde. Before he is assigned to command the Falcon Guards he has to put down a rebellion because the Jade Falcons are removing every skilled person they could from the planet.

[Jaroth Corbett]

feor, on 12 December 2011 - 11:03 PM, said:

They are no more slaves than criminals on a work-release program. They are Prisoners of War on a Work Release program, but that's all they are. They do a good job, they get to return to something like their former life. If they don't perform they get locked up. The culture clash between the Clans and the Inner Sphere in the matter is that the ideal clan warriors tend to aspire to (and I won't say all clan warriors, clanners is people to, and some of them are real douches) is that their first loyalty is to the people of the Clans. And while people tend to think of the Clans as individual entities, in reality they're more like separate provinces of a single nation. They bicker and they feud, but in the end, they are all Clan. Whether you're a Mandrill, a Hellion, or a coked out Goliath Scorpion, your first job is to protect the people of the Clans from harm.

So when a Clan Warrior is taken as Isorla by another Clan, to them, that's only marginally different to being transfered to another unit within your own Clan. You used to be in charge of keeping the people in the green building safe, now your job is to keep the people in the red building safe.

But at the same time, Clan Warriors also believe in martial might as a worthy goal to aspire to, and how can you prove your might without combat? So the Warriors go out and carry out ritualistic combat amongst themselves. To a certain extent warfare in the Clans is just a very large, very dangerous version of the UFC. Warriors fighting to prove themselves and earn glory & spoils for their sponsors. And if you've been defeated in combat your opponent is obviously superior to you and worthy of your fealty, since martial might is the greatest gauge of a warriors esteem. And since you're just defending a different subset of the Clan population if you switch sides there's no reason not to follow your new leader.

What you end up with are two groups of people who do not understand each other at all.

To the Spheroid warrior, he doesn't fight to protect civilians, he fights to protect his civilians. The idea of fighting with people who are/were attacking those civilians is abhorant to him. To the Clanners thinking they are offering him a chance to prove his skill and protect civiliansm it'll just be the civilians in the Jade Falcon buildings. They're still civilians, why would a warrior turn down an opportunity to fight for them? Likewise, during the initial invasion, many Clan warriors (ok, many not "many" but the few that were captured) were dumbfounded when they were captured and locked up without even being offered the chance to prove themselves for their "new clan". Those that were given the opportunity to prove themselves were often found to be more loyal to the house army that had captured them than some of the warriors recruited in that house's systems.

Now, this is the clean cut black and white version of things. As with anything there's a wide range of grays where this doesn't apply exactly. The Issue muddied by "personal honour" and other things which addle the minds of men. (Sometimes with extreme results like warriors committing Bondsref - basically committing suicide rather than letting yourself be captured by a particularly hated enemy)

tl;dr basically it just boils down to a question of cultures. To the Clans, civilians are civilians, whoever's flag they happen to be working under, and warriors should defend them. Being taken as Bondsman to them is no different than being transfered to a new unit, just one with really harsh hazing rituals where you seriously have to prove yourself.

You described this perfectly. I tip my hat to you. Well done sir.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 13 December 2011 - 04:52 AM.

[Basch]

Is it just me or dose the clan jade falcon seem to pop up when ever some 1 has something anticlan to say?

Edited by Basch, 13 December 2011 - 04:59 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Neg the Jaguars are the anticlan posterboys. They are the Smoke sheep of the family.

[Diablo48]

Jaroth Winson, on 13 December 2011 - 05:18 AM, said:

Neg the Jaguars are the anticlan posterboys. They are the Smoke sheep of the family.

It is worth noting that the Jags got very close to being annihilated long before the invasion over their treatment of their own civilians, so using them as an example of how Clan warriors interact with the civilians is a bad idea.

A very good example to look at for how it is supposed to work is Clan Ghost Bear which was able to take the FRR which had been constantly rebelling against its various owners for centuries and convince the population that it would be a good idea to fully merge with the Clan in less than a generation. You simply cannot pull that off without working with the locals and making them feel welcome, and the overwhelming success of the merger shows just how successful the Bears were at making the population feel welcome.

[Xen Wolf]

Aff. You freebirth scum should stop complaining about the clans and tell your leaders they should stop squabbling over petty holding and put that effort towards advancing technology. Also I need some combat time so I can be eligible for a Trial of Bloodright. Also with the timeline so close to the invasion I see no way you can not have the clans unless you declare this a alternate reality.

Quote

Something like a team size handicap (Binary vs Company, aka 10vs12) or a BV like system. Something like that: Yes you can sign up for combat with a binary of Timberwolves and Mad Dogs, but don't be surprised if you have to fight a reinforced company of Awesomes and Maulers.

I see no reason why I would bid so high. I would bid a star to your company. After all a warrior who wants handicaps is no warrior at all. Long live the Wolf clan

[Kudzu]

nobby, on 13 December 2011 - 01:58 AM, said:

Your comparison to work release would work if it were only enemy fighters they enslaved, but it's not. Even if the civilians of a planet don't fight against the clans, as soon as whatever clan takes over lands they strip anyone they want from the planet. Scientists, teachers, doctors mechanics, techs whatever.

People who have done no wrong to the clan whatsoever still get removed from their families and friends unwillingly. Just because the Clans don't see it as slavery doesn't make it so.

I suppose in the end it's something to write off to differing cultures. As a personal opinion though I find it impossible to separate the concept of a Bondsman from the parallels I see with historic slavery.

Slaves work for no pay, have little chance for freedom, and are typically abused. A bondman is more like an indentured servant or intern.

And while they can be removed from their worlds as needed, more often than not they stay in place. Depending on the conquering clan in question (Wolf, later CGB) it's really not much more than a change in flags.