410 replies to this topic

[Pando]

I am in a Mercenary Corporation. However, that will not prevent me from aligning with a Clan once they become playable factions.

[101011]

Tsen Shang, on 03 November 2011 - 04:44 PM, said:

I wonder how many would pick clans if the tech were even?

I personally would want a Clan mech, purely for the reason that they look cool (Summoner in particular), not really for an advantage.

[Gremlich Johns]

Pando, on 03 January 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

I am in a Mercenary Corporation. However, that will not prevent me from aligning with a Clan once they become playable factions.

As a merc, you would not be aligned with a Clan, for they eschew such relationships with mercs. Just one notch above Pirates unless you show honor on the field - then, things might be different.

[Pando]

Gremlich Johns, on 05 January 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

As a merc, you would not be aligned with a Clan, for they eschew such relationships with mercs. Just one notch above Pirates unless you show honor on the field - then, things might be different.

Let me re-phrase. I'm a member of a Mercenary Corporation (group of players). We, the group of players have mixed loyalty's when it comes to what faction we the group of players want to be aligned with.

Edited by Pando, 10 January 2013 - 09:07 AM.

[RagingOyster]

Program 024, on 03 November 2011 - 03:52 PM, said:

I'm torn. I like the teamwork concept of the IS, but at the same time, there is the greater sense of freedom with the clans. And on top of that, some clan mechs are pretty good

Freedom? What is this "freedom" you speak of?
Lore-wise, the Clans are basically a heavily-modified socialist military dictatorship where war os glorified and a caste system puts warriors above all others. Freedom is not the word that comes to mind when I think of the Clans.

As for the poll, of course I vote "Yes"
But it has to be said... ComStar will always be a very close second favorite faction

[Jaroth Corbett]

You speak against the Clans, yet you have a Clan signature. Speaking of the signature, you have a Clan Wolf in Exile (Warden) backdrop with a Crusader quote........ I think you are a confused individual quiaff?

[guardian wolf]

Don't go to hard on him Jaroth, not yet.

[Jack Deichgraf]

It depends on which clans will be available...

Otherwise Rasalhague or a Pirate!

[James Pryde IIC]

Dirty Old Man, on 03 January 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

Clan culture makes me want to vomit blood. I hate socialist government. I do not believe in the abortion of the rights of any individual for the sake of any greater good or evil...only GOD can decide what happens in the future, all of us is along for the right. Having said all that nonsense below are my answers,

1) I will only fight for the Clanners if I am captured, tortured and converted into a Boundsmen

2) I will always love to salvage Clan Mechs or Tech any day !

OOC, mate, it is only a game...in real life I would certainly like a SLDF / ELH "defence family" kinda thing....

but having said that, sometimes it is more fun to RP the "bad" guys, like Sith, in SWTOR. Far more interesting and cool.

And besides, I did not have any choice about being a Clanner , I was born into Jade Falcon, ahhh my lovely vat

and certain elements of Clan Society, can be very inspiring and motivational for real life too, I have found.

[Gremlich Johns]

Pando, on 10 January 2013 - 09:06 AM, said:

Let me re-phrase. I'm a member of a Mercenary Corporation (group of players). We, the group of players have mixed loyalty's when it comes to what faction we the group of players want to be aligned with.

with respect to the Clans and you being mercs, your point of view matters not vis-a-vis the canon. The Clans, in 3050, do not associate with mercs in anything other than battle.

[Mr Cartier]

Define more specifically. Do you mean a trueborn clanner, a freeborn clanner, or perhaps a (any) certain named, individual famous existing clanner?

If it is as a clansman in general, yes. Jade Falcon to heart.
If it was a specific charecter of history, then no. I have my own history to make.

Edited by Mr Cartier, 14 January 2013 - 01:53 PM.

[h00n]

DFDelta, on 03 November 2011 - 03:55 PM, said:

Yes you can sign up for combat with a binary of Timberwolves and Mad Dogs, but don't be surprised if you have to fight a reinforced company of Awesomes and Maulers.

Oh I would be so happy.

This is from a Clanner's mouth.

[Zabnicki]

Inner Sphere. I am sure I am one of the few that will actually stay.(didn't bother to read the other 16 pages).

[Starstryke]

DFDelta, on 03 November 2011 - 03:55 PM, said:

You know guys, I think the clanners will make me laugh.

I guess 80% of those that sign up as clanners once they become available are only after the easymode that clantech represents.
I know there are diehard lore-clanners here, but most won't be.

Then, if the devs are smart, we get canon countermeasures against clan superiority to keep the clans balanced for gameplay.
Something like a team size handicap (Binary vs Company, aka 10vs12) or a BV like system. Something like that: Yes you can sign up for combat with a binary of Timberwolves and Mad Dogs, but don't be surprised if you have to fight a reinforced company of Awesomes and Maulers.
Suddenly those guys would have to actually work for their victories, and would even have to be, as lore dictates, good pilots to archive anything.
Then there will be much whining, and us IS pilots laughing.

I'm kinda looking forward to it.

irishwarrior, on 03 November 2011 - 03:58 PM, said:

You know, I'm a huge fan of the Ghost Bears in the books and stuff... But as far as gameplay purposes go, I think I'd rather stick with the Inner Sphere and pray that I get a chance to salvage an Adder Prime, and maybe some extra weapons and equipment pods for it (Depending on how the advanced targeting computer works in the game - if it's even included - I'd think about swapping it for some salvaged jump jet pods). If I went clan, I'd want to stick with the rules of Zellbrigen. The IS just seems like it has better teamwork and more freedom in combat

Kargush, on 03 November 2011 - 04:00 PM, said:

Star Adders were not an invading Clan. So no.

Actually, by 3045, the Adder had become common throughout the Clans at
http://www.sarna.net...dder_%28Puma%29

[RagingOyster]

Jaroth Winson, on 11 January 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

You speak against the Clans, yet you have a Clan signature. Speaking of the signature, you have a Clan Wolf in Exile (Warden) backdrop with a Crusader quote........ I think you are a confused individual quiaff?

Neg. When and where did i speak against the Clans? I spoke facts regarding Clan society, are you denying that the Clans are a glorified military dictatorship? If so, you are ignorant of the factions that you apparently want to be a part of.

Edit: I also see only a quote from the Remembrance... maybe Crusaders use it to justify conquest of the IS but I always read it as meaning that the Clans would return to take up the mantle of defenders of the Star League reborn, long left vacant since the Exodus

Edited by RagingOyster, 15 January 2013 - 05:54 PM.

[Iacov]

love my mad dog
think family/bonds matter
clas ghost bear!

[Jaroth Corbett]

Your first mistake was typing the nonsense you typed. The second was trying to defend & explain it & not acknowledge it was nonsense. You third & most disastrous was you did not do any research about the person you wished to debate.

My questions were genuine. I was not trying to debate you. I was really trying to ascertain that if you realized by contradicting yourself TWICE, how confused you appeared.

What a world we live in when the ignorant ones claim not to be ignorant & accuse the informed ones that THEY are ignorant. Yes you surat, I am denying that the Clans are a glorified military dictatorship. In what dictatorship in history has there been such transparency & accountability? Where else has the leader of a dictatorship been taken to task for his/actions in a proper legal way not an uprising or revolt?

Now my books are old because I left school a LONG time ago, but they are still valid.

Collins Gem Thesaurus describes a dictator as:

absolute ruler, despot, oppressor, tyrant

Those are big words. I am not sure what they mean. Let me consult the thesaurus again.

Absolute: complete, outright, total, unequivocal, supreme

Hmmmmmm. Now you said the ClanS, meaning all of them. Well if the Clans are a dictatorship then they must be ruled by a dictator right? I mean surely you can give me that. Who leads all of the Clans by they way? I think it is an ilKhan.



I must be going blind in my old age, but I could swear that says the temporary post of ilKhan. What dictator oppresses temporarily by design? "I WILL IMPOSE MY WILL ON THIS POPULATION....for a period of three to five years. Does that sound agreeable?'

Dictators kinda want to be in complete control until they die.

Oh look, it says that a sitting ilKhan can be removed by a vote or impeachment. Hmmmmmmm this is looking less like a dictatorship by the paragraph. Impeachment is a big word. Let me check Collins. What does impeach mean?

Impeach: arraign, censure, denounce, indict

That sounds like someone in authority has to do some legal mumbo jumbo & poof, no more dictator. Only a dictatorship would not have a legal system set up to depose the dictator, because that kind of you know DEFEATS THE POINT OF BEING A DICTATOR.

"SUBJECTS, I AM YOUR LORD & MASTER, I AM THE LAW! However should I do anything too extreme or not to your liking, you may appoint Magistrates from the learned amongst you, gather in the Great Hall, convene Parliament & follow Protocol 56J to either vote me out of power or impeach me."

Dictators kinda destroy any methods of removing them from power, legally speaking I mean.



This says that the ilKhan's power is absolute. No wait, that looks like a NOT in front of absolute. So the absolute rules does NOT have absolute power? Interesting. What is that they say lower down? Lots of important stuff has to be ratified before it can be implemented & decisions can actually be overturned.

"My lord you look quite pleased with yourself this evening."

"Yes Thomas, I had a sudden rush of inspiration this morning & decided to decree an increase of the taxes by 50%. I will be raking in a hefty sum in a short space of time."

*knock knock* After a few moments

"Who was that Thomas?"

"A message from Parliament my lord, not only have they reversed your increase on the taxes, they actually lowered the existing rate."

"Oh fiddlesticks!"

Yeah I could see a dictator running that kind of operation.

Hey what is that? Does that say the ilKhan cannot dictate the outcome of certain matters? The dictator cannot dictate?

If you are wondering, the pics are from A Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans Pg.71

So it seems those FASA people, you know the ones that actually wrote the BT lore, says the Clans are NOT a dictatorship. I would be more than HAPPY to quote other sources to educate you but somehow I do not think I will get the chance.

I think you will carry your confused *** to the Inner Sphere section where you belong.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 16 January 2013 - 09:08 AM.

[Kovathos]

I'd rather be a merc and just salvage their *****.

[RagingOyster]

Jaroth Winson, on 16 January 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

Your first mistake was typing the nonsense you typed. The second was trying to defend & explain it & not acknowledge it was nonsense. You third & most disastrous was you did not do any research about the person you wished to debate.

My questions were genuine. I was not trying to debate you. I was really trying to ascertain that if you realized by contradicting yourself TWICE, how confused you appeared.

What a world we live in when the ignorant ones claim not to be ignorant & accuse the informed ones that THEY are ignorant. Yes you surat, I am denying that the Clans are a glorified military dictatorship. In what dictatorship in history has there been such transparency & accountability? Where else has the leader of a dictatorship been taken to task for his/actions in a proper legal way not an uprising or revolt?

Now my books are old because I left school a LONG time ago, but they are still valid.

Collins Gem Thesaurus describes a dictator as:

absolute ruler, despot, oppressor, tyrant

Those are big words. I am not sure what they mean. Let me consult the thesaurus again.

Absolute: complete, outright, total, unequivocal, supreme

Hmmmmmm. Now you said the ClanS, meaning all of them. Well if the Clans are a dictatorship then they must be ruled by a dictator right? I mean surely you can give me that. Who leads all of the Clans by they way? I think it is an ilKhan.



I must be going blind in my old age, but I could swear that says the temporary post of ilKhan. What dictator oppresses temporarily by design? "I WILL IMPOSE MY WILL ON THIS POPULATION....for a period of three to five years. Does that sound agreeable?'

Dictators kinda want to be in complete control until they die.

Oh look, it says that a sitting ilKhan can be removed by a vote or impeachment. Hmmmmmmm this is looking less like a dictatorship by the paragraph. Impeachment is a big word. Let me check Collins. What does impeach mean?

Impeach: arraign, censure, denounce, indict

That sounds like someone in authority has to do some legal mumbo jumbo & poof, no more dictator. Only a dictatorship would not have a legal system set up to depose the dictator, because that kind of you know DEFEATS THE POINT OF BEING A DICTATOR.

"SUBJECTS, I AM YOUR LORD & MASTER, I AM THE LAW! However should I do anything too extreme or not to your liking, you may appoint Magistrates from the learned amongst you, gather in the Great Hall, convene Parliament & follow Protocol 56J to either vote me out of power or impeach me."

Dictators kinda destroy any methods of removing them from power, legally speaking I mean.



This says that the ilKhan's power is absolute. No wait, that looks like a NOT in front of absolute. So the absolute rules does NOT have absolute power? Interesting. What is that they say lower down? Lots of important stuff has to be ratified before it can be implemented & decisions can actually be overturned.

"My lord you look quite pleased with yourself this evening."

"Yes Thomas, I had a sudden rush of inspiration this morning & decided to decree an increase of the taxes by 50%. I will be raking in a hefty sum in a short space of time."

*knock knock* After a few moments

"Who was that Thomas?"

"A message from Parliament my lord, not only have they reversed your increase on the taxes, they actually lowered the existing rate."

"Oh fiddlesticks!"

Yeah I could see a dictator running that kind of operation.

Hey what is that? Does that say the ilKhan cannot dictate the outcome of certain matters? The dictator cannot dictate?

If you are wondering, the pics are from A Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans Pg.71

So it seems those FASA people, you know the ones that actually wrote the BT lore, says the Clans are NOT a dictatorship. I would be more than HAPPY to quote other sources to educate you but somehow I do not think I will get the chance.

I think you will carry your confused *** to the Inner Sphere section where you belong.

Wow. Very long, well thought out and structured. I have to say you make quite a few very valid points, though your condescending and insulting tone seriously detracts from your post. Maybe if you were not being a massive **** I would take you more seriously. Beneath the trappings of the Council and the checks and balances that exist lies a society that is ruled absolutely by its' military. There is something to be said for Clans like the Diamond Sharks, where the Merchant caste has significant clout, but on the whole the Warrior cast dominates Clan society at every level. Perhaps I chose my words poorly, but I was trying to say that the Clans are ruled by the military (Warrior caste), and the other castes, while on paper acknowledged as important, are subject to the whims of the ruling Warrior caste. On top of that, the extreme limits on caste-to-caste movement and the strict structure of the society limits the personal freedoms of Clanners severely. As to the Clans being a "dictatorship", I concede the point. You are correct, and I was misinformed. Please refrain from insulting me and taking a condescending tone with me, since I did so for you.

Clearly you are a devout reader of BT lore. Unfortunately for me, much of the lore was written before my time so I am obviously not quite as well-learned as you. It was (and is) my understanding that the Clans society strictly limits individual freedom in favor of the benefit of the whole, like a version of socialism. That was what I meant in the original post. Like I said, I did not speak any ill-will towards the Clans, I merely stated what I understand to be facts.

Finally, the quotes. Apparently I am not allowed to interpret things for myself, but must accept your interpretation? I justified my sig by stating my interpretation of those particular lines of the Remembrance. It is not nonsense, and I will not acknowledge it as such.

I think you will calm yourself and be a little more civil.

P.S. Dictator does not have to mean "absolute ruler for life, answerable to no one with no limit to the scope and depth of his power"
In ancient Rome, the dictator was one appointed by the Senate in times of crisis to smooth the decision-making process and lead the people in times of war or great crisis. This was seen as a civil service, not an honor, and the dictator always stepped down after the crisis had passed until, of course, Julius Caesar decided he would rather stay in power.
But other than that last part, it sounds remarkably like the Clans' government. Temporary dictatorships, in which the dictator is appointed and steps down after a time.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Quote

Perhaps I chose my words poorly

Indeed

Quote

As to the Clans being a "dictatorship", I concede the point. You are correct, and I was misinformed.

It takes a mature individual to admit they were wrong. This is a good start to future conversations.

Quote

Please refrain from insulting me and taking a condescending tone with me, since I did so for you.

You said I was

Quote

ignorant of the factions that you apparently want to be a part of.

that was condescending & insulting. You started this, I merely finished it. If you have a question to ask, then ask it. Do not make wild assumptions & take a certain tone, when your "facts" are incorrect.

Quote

I spoke facts regarding Clan society, are you denying that the Clans are a glorified military dictatorship?

You said:

Quote

I think you will calm yourself and be a little more civil.

You were the one who got ruffled by my questions which were not confrontational. Had you kept your calm, we would not be here.

Quote

Finally, the quotes. Apparently I am not allowed to interpret things for myself, but must accept your interpretation? I justified my sig by stating my interpretation of those particular lines of the Remembrance. It is not nonsense, and I will not acknowledge it as such.

And you were doing so well............

The pic in your sig is of Clan Wolf in Exile, a Warden faction, but the quote is a Crusader one & NO it is not MY interpretations but the LORE's.

Both factions have a list of quotes associated with them that they use to bolster their arguments. For example in the Warden Clans Field Manual they use:



while in the Crusader Clans Field Manual they use:



Both pics had two quotes each, but if you did a lot of reading you would see other quotes used by both sides. Again that is the universe itself & not MY interpretation. When a Crusader makes an argument he quotes XYZ & when a Warden makes an argument he quotes ABC, that has been clearly established & understood by those that have read a few books. When I am giving MY opinion, I clearly state so.

So AGAIN, you have a warden pic with a crusader quote. You look confused. It is as simple as that.

You need to do some more reading; a LOT more. If you need any material, please feel free to ask.

P.S. Regarding your Rome reference, you are only half-right, SOME dictators were appointed for a specific purpose but not ALL. There were different types of dictators.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 17 January 2013 - 05:00 AM.