410 replies to this topic

[EDMW CSN]

Mercs all the way baby.

[Haeso]

Mercenary with a soft spot for Davion. I want to dance on Katarina's grave.

[GreyGriffin]

I was weaned on the holo projectors of mechwarrior 2. The first fig I owned was a Bane. I will play whatever clan I can until my bretheren show up...

Aside - I actually read an interesting essay about Turtle Bay and clan psychology, saying that it was a perfectly reasonable reaction given the circumstances. The lower castes in a Clan have little influence on politics - the doings of the Warrior caste is usually well above their heads, and when their habitatats and holdings change hands, they pay little mind. Laborers labor, whoever's banner flies overhead.

However, when the Smoke Jaguars encountered guerilla warfare, they were utterly unprepared to face the possibility that the lower castes would revolt against their rule. Fighting against the Warrior caste was the duty of other Warriors, and, in their mind, the inhabitants of Turtle Bay were criminally insane. Rising up against them was simply not something the Clan mindset was prepared to deal with. With contact between cultures still young and Warriors completely at a loss as to what to do, they responded with the most effective tool in their arsenal - force.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Lima Zulu, on 10 November 2011 - 11:09 PM, said:

Well, answering to thread question: No, I'll never play clan.

There are some reasons for that.

First of all - clans are not better than any IS house

That is YOUR opinion. I think you are wrong but you are entitled to it.

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- or do you really think that Kerensky, who took most deadly weapons away from IS for safety of mankind, not for honor, wanted descendants of his own followers, equipped with superior military technologies to bring war back to the IS? I'd say, he would commanded to deastroy all battlemechs and ships in place and maybe commit suicide immediately just to prevent any chance of anything like Clans will be created.

Clearly English is not your native tongue, so if I misunderstand what you are trying to say forgive me, but I am trying to understand the words you have mashed together here. Why would the greatest general of the IS want to destroy all Battlemechs, weapons etc., then kill himself? What line of reasoning took you to that point? Utterly ridiculous. He had no idea of the Clans, he was simply trying to get away from the chaos, turmoil, greed, corruption & destruction that was the IS.

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So there is no matter how clanners call describe their invasion: restoring IS, Crusade, honor - it's just a war, war for power and resourses and even worse - war of ideology. They fought each others for centuries and now think, that war and honor are only worthly things, but noone cares. War is not a sport, not a competition, not even a ritual. It's a blood and destruction, gore and flames, and there are no exuses for that. (yes, I'm kinda pacifist who gonna kill everyone who aren't ) Especially in clan way - they haven't even try to negotiate at first, oh yes, they thought IS people haven't enoogh honor even to speak. Niiiice...

Yes it is a Crusade. Crusaders calls themselves that because they believe their cause is worthy & they have the moral obligation to do what they do. What war for resources? They did not need any of the IS resources. They built their own universe, on worlds that could hardly be called "paradise". They had their own capabilites for making things. Actually the Clans DID care. ALL of them. It was simply a difference of opinion as to what the words the Great Father wrote, meant. Thus the division into Warden & Crusader camps. That is the point the Clans were trying to make. Which is why they are BETTER than the IS. Feelings are going to be hurt, decisions are not going to go everyone's way, resources are going to be sought after etc. There will be conflict; but instead of acting like barbarians & just go in guns blazing where innocent parties can get hurt, they conduct Trials where only warriors fight for such resources away from where innocent people can get hurt & infrastructure can be damaged.

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Second, but still about clan rules. Personally I dont's think clans neither better nor worse than any IS superpowers, but not every clan is the same. Of course we all know about The Turtle Bay. Is was a military crime, most unhonorable thing can be imagined. But... Where were other clans with their own honor? Did they wiped jags immediately? No. They just left them alone, when their doom came to Huntress. Is it a clan honor? Is it a clan justice? No, thanks.

But, third. I don't say I hate every clan, or think they all are totally screwed. Some of them shows, that they can recognize past mistakes. Nova Cats (strange, but noone tells anything about Nova Cats in this thread), Ghost Bears - that's a true way, way to atonement, way to re-unite with civilization.

I think I get what you are saying so let me try to reply. Might I suggest using an online translator to convey your thoughts to English? I think the Clans are better than all of the IS. Everyone wants to whine about Turtle Bay when that was an isolated incident & the IS had committed much more destructive acts in their Succession Wars. Kentares Massacre ring any bells? Why would the other Clans wipe out the Jaguars? The action was committed in the Jaguar invasion corridor. Each clan makes its own decision how to act. Could the Federated Commonwealth dare to tell the Draconis Combine what to do? Yes it is clan honor. You make your own decision & get honored or dishonored by your own actions. Yes it is justice, because it is just. What a surprise, the clan you like is the one that betrayed their brethren & joined your side. [sarcasm]I did not see that one coming at all.[/sarcasm] What about the Ghost Bears is the true way?

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Of course, clan tecnology are very delicious and desirable. As trophies. Comstar has superior technologies too. It's not a question of technology - IS has stopped invasion and was able to sike Jags back with they own technologies and resourses. So we'll be able too.

Trophies my ***. The IS wanted what the Clans had but were too lazy/destructive to come up with it themselves. Comstar had what? Where did you read that? Uh no. They brought upgraded tech they obtained from Wolf's Dragoons & a few salvaged (or bargained for) mechs from the Clans. It was hardly an even tech match. The IS used superior numbers as well as uncivilized tactics (ironically to prove who was superior, which just showed them for what they are:barbarians) in order to win. Toe to toe with even numbers, fighting honorably, the IS never had a chance. To quote someone from the novels,

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Placing his palms flat on the desk, Wolf leaned forward. "Now the two of us will become your instructors. Some of you have already seen battle, but even with that, the total sum of experience of those seated at this table would not equal what the average Clan warrior goes through in his training.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 23 November 2011 - 02:57 AM.

[Joanna Conners]

I'm looking forward to meeting role-players from both sides. I truly hope Clans will be playable, because they offer an excellent RP experience.

Now, I'm a happy freeborn. I don't care who you send me to fight, just make sure I'm getting paid enough. I'm not risking my neck on some nameless, lifeless rock so I can die. I expect to cash out as a wealthy woman.

Inner Sphere, Clans, it's all the same to me: Pay day.

[StoneRhino]

I don't really care for the clans. If we only get 1 character, it would be IS all the way, regardless if the devs give clanners the tech advantage. I never really bought into it, not only that but their numbers are limited as well. Just gimmie my dirty, dirty, MRM launchers and we can call it even.

If we get an alt, I wouldn't mind either playing as clan smoked kitt...I mean Smoke Jaguars or Falcons. I would prefer to use second line clan mechs over the 3050 omnis, save the kitfox. I would likely try a clan alt if the game was balanced by a BV2 like system, or if the clans were just clan mechs using IS grade gear. I would drop it all for a STone Rhino or original Warhammer IIC.

[StoneRhino]

The clans needed to burn. Without better tech there would be no way for them to have won.
Clans "excuse me..."
IS :"yes?"
Clans:" I'd like to invade your planets."
IS: "really??? How do you plan to do that?"
Clans: "Oh, with 30 of my mechs, of course!"
IS: "30 mechs? That seems like an awful lot of mechs to attack this little planet, how about 10?"
CLans: "Really? You don't say? Well, that wouldn't be very sporting of us now would it? Lets make it 5!"
IS: *sigh* "Okay, 5 mechs, but no more, I just don't have any more mechs."
Clans: "Sounds like a deal, quaiff?
IS: "Cola???"
Clans: "Huh? No, I mean it sounds good. Where shall we do this?"
IS: "Um, here, over here, it will give us a nice open space to do battle."
Clans: "Excellent, we shall see you soon!"

10 minutes go by, mechs are dropped in the open field as requested. A lone urban mech lurches out of the wood works to greet the clanners. The clanners look around expecting 4 more mechs.

Clanner: "Where is the rest of your force?"
IS:" wow, right...about....here!" *urban mech pogos off as the clanners are engulfed in artillery fire.

Urbanmechs and artillery, dropping much needed chlorine into the clanners gene pool since 19...err...3050.


If the clanners cannot hold the ground with the forces they have, they have no right to claim the ground. The clans used their advantages, but claim they are honorable when they really are nothing more then spoiled children with expensive toys trying to make all the rules, then crying when the other side realized....they don't need that garbage! Numbers is the advantage that the IS choose to use, simple as that.

[Jack Gallows]

I'm going to predominantly play as the Inner Sphere, but I'd not mind playing Clan from time to time for a change of pace.

Currently trying to decide if I want to go the mercenary route or actually affiliate with House Davion.

[Jack Gallows]

Jaroth Winson, on 23 November 2011 - 02:30 AM, said:

I think the Clans are better than all of the IS.

While it's fine to feel this way in terms of culture/etc (the clans are pretty interesting,) in the end the IS won. You can moan and howl about how they did it, but history is written by the victors. The Clans still lose (with the exception of Wolf, technically,) in the end even with their supposed superiority.

Don't hate the Clans, but if they were better then the IS they'd have taken Terra.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

not only numbers, stonerhino; but superior tactics. If you look at the two combat doctrines, clans and inner sphere. Clans practice a type of combat almost like Napoleonic Wars or earlier. Inner sphere? they practice modern warfare, so who's really going to win?

as Jaroth will consistently fail to see; its not who's more honorable in a war, it's who's tactics won the day. this is the reason that most combat is a terrible, bloody thing. Clanner just can't handle the insanity that is realizing that war can't be sanitized.

you want an awesome riposte to stuff Jaroth throws out? go read Battlecorps: Of War, Peace, and Cherry Trees. An excellent tale from the perspective of a pacifist Combine mechwarrior, how'd he get pacifist? he fought in the clan invasion.

I will agree with him on one thing, can other Spheroids please stop citing Turtle Bay? during the sum total of the Clan invasion, it was an isolated incident, let's move on from that.

[EDMW CSN]

Clans had no real idea to wage war during 3050. 3058 onward was different though. Many Clans outright refuse to honor zellbrigen anymore when facing IS. But the IS had another good 8 years of rebuilding and they rebuild a LOT faster. So the IS has the numerical advantage again.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 23 November 2011 - 07:52 AM.

[StoneRhino]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 23 November 2011 - 07:46 AM, said:

not only numbers, stonerhino; but superior tactics. If you look at the two combat doctrines, clans and inner sphere. Clans practice a type of combat almost like Napoleonic Wars or earlier. Inner sphere? they practice modern warfare, so who's really going to win?

as Jaroth will consistently fail to see; its not who's more honorable in a war, it's who's tactics won the day. this is the reason that most combat is a terrible, bloody thing. Clanner just can't handle the insanity that is realizing that war can't be sanitized.

Of course it was more then just numbers, but thats what clan fans like to stick to. I am surprised they never came out with a clan mech for jousting. Imagine a madcat riding atop a hellion, or goliath? The methods used by clans would work great in a mini society that had limited resources to pull from. They might minimize their losses, but it just would not work in a real world environment, which the InnerSphere simulated rather well.

I always found it rather absurd that the clanners were ever a real threat. Sure, ton for ton the clans had an advantage. I would go so far as to suggest that the most even fight is to pair a clan light mech against a IS medium, or a clan heavy against a IS Assault. However, the clans should have never posed a significant threat as they simply did not have the numbers to commit to a move such as taking Terra. That should have been viewed as suicide, and should have been nothing but suicide in it's execution. If it was not for the want for an interesting story line they would have been squashed. Once you throw in combined arms into the equation, the clanners should have been punted off of the first few planets they would be lucky enough to take.

The only way the clans would have won, or could have taken as much of the IS as they did is if they had used their warships. Before it was "modified" the clanners did not take their aerospace assets seriously and clan fighter pilots were second rate when compared to those of the IS. That was due to their failed eugenics programs for pilots, and the lack of attention they got, meaning less training then the clan mechwarriors. Yet the IS forces knew the value of their aerospace assets, which means they knew a single fighter could seriously damage a mech force running about without aircover. Now if the clanners took their space force seriously they would have denied the IS from dropping reinforcements onto planets with ease. How many NAC40s and NPPCs can your leopards and overlords soak before bursting into flames? Superior fighter designs, such as the munchy but tastey Batu would have shredded mechs on their way down, or brought down any dropships that made it past the warships, likely heavily damaged of course. A taskforce with a mission to destroy IS shipyards, what was around, would have brought the IS to a halt allowing the clanners to apply their superior technology against the IS without fear of the IS applying their advantages.

I'm not even talking about orbital bombardment against IS forces that clustered up. In short, the clanners would be delusional fools to have such assets, fail to apply them, and expect to win with smaller forces then the IS. Their only real chance would to fight small skirmishes and get out of town and move onto the next planet. It would be highly ineffective, but it would give them a chance at slowly eating up IS forces without allowing them to apply large forces, which the IS could raise up, against the clanners.

I would love to have some way for one massive game of MW to be played using IS vs Clans in the proper numbers, and with actual assets and see who really wins. I would bet my entire BT collection that the clanners get silenced hard and fast.

[StoneRhino]

[EDMW]CSN, on 23 November 2011 - 07:49 AM, said:

Clans had no real idea to wage war during 3050. 3058 onward was different though. Many Clans outright refuse to honor zellbrigen anymore when facing IS. But the IS had another good 8 years of rebuilding and they rebuild a LOT faster. So the IS has the numerical advantage again.

Clanners like to think that they are honorable, but they can't even stick to their own rules when going against their own. Why in the world would the IS want to play by an alien force's arbitrary rules that are arbitrarily applied? Why bother thinking about it when they can't even stick to it themselves?

[Jaroth Corbett]

Jack Gallows, on 23 November 2011 - 07:40 AM, said:

While it's fine to feel this way in terms of culture/etc (the clans are pretty interesting,) in the end the IS won. You can moan and howl about how they did it, but history is written by the victors. The Clans still lose (with the exception of Wolf, technically,) in the end even with their supposed superiority.

Don't hate the Clans, but if they were better then the IS they'd have taken Terra.

Thank for making the technical point. Since you started it, I will finish it. Your other point is rejected on the basis of facts. If the rest of the Clans had listened to Ulric they would have taken Terra. Even Anastasius Focht realized that. Do not try to be cheeky, especially when your own people know the truth & admitted it. Stone Rhino that goes for you as well.

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"You would sound to me like a general who has accurately assessed the consequences of war, and one who greatly values his troops." Ulric wiped sweat from his forehead with his hand. "I have seen the casualty reports for my troops. My deaths are running at 20 percent, with an overall casualty rate of 35 percent and equipment damage of 62.3 percent—half of that being suitable for salvage. And I know my people got off lightly."

Focht turned on him. "Your people got off lightly? Are you not the ilKhan? Do you not lead all the Clans?"

The ilKhan slowly shook his head. "As this battle would prematurely decide the end of our quest, our crusade, it was determined that control of the individual operations would fall to the Clan Khans. Though I was permitted to review all data coming up from the planet, I was not obliged to distribute it unless asked. As no one saw fit to request my thoughts, I was free to act to the benefit of my Clan."

So, they forced you to act on your own and you let them twist in the wind. "Had you led them, coordinated them, you would have defeated me."

The Clans lost because they did not do what they were supposed to do; listen to the ilKhan. The one Clan that prepared itself for a long-term engagement, stocked adequate supplies, laid out a proper supply chain, protected said supply chain & disciplined itself to using a certain amount of ammunition & supplies per battle won on Tukayyid. The facts stand.

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Placing his palms flat on the desk, Wolf leaned forward. "Now the two of us will become your instructors. Some of you have already seen battle, but even with that, the total sum of experience of those seated at this table would not equal what the average Clan warrior goes through in his training.

Clanners were ALWAYS better.

stonerhino, on 23 November 2011 - 08:32 AM, said:

Clanners like to think that they are honorable, but they can't even stick to their own rules when going against their own. Why in the world would the IS want to play by an alien force's arbitrary rules that are arbitrarily applied? Why bother thinking about it when they can't even stick to it themselves?

Do some research before you type nonsense. It is called honor levels. They have things in place in the event they meet dishonorable foes on the battlefield. They broke no rules.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 23 November 2011 - 11:00 AM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

sigh i know Jaroth can't see this, but that doesn't matter I love
refuting him anyway.

I love how he responds to IS realities of combat doctrine with specific
quotes about Tukkayyid, if you know your stuff Jaroth give us some
quotes from the actual invasion cause that's what we're talking about.
Tukkayyid was a complete setup, the clans were made to fail. We're
talking about tactical doctrine in a setting where they were not
setup to for anything.

Oh wait you'd mumble something or other about
Twycross and Kai Allard-Liao; you know where an entire front line
cluster of trueborn warriors taken out by well placed demo charges.

Let's look at the trade-off here:
the cost in war material of a front-line cluster
VS
the cost of making, shipping, and placing...demolition charges
who's the more thrifty?

now about Tukkayyid cause you love your wolf fanwank so much. Just
cause one clan won its objectives != clans being better. The Wolf combat
doctrine was as isolated an occurence in clan combat as TurtleBay was
to clan internal policy!

if they couldnt listen to their ilKhan for Tukkayyid what stands to reason
that they would have listened to him/her if they took Terra. would they
not just refute the ilClans hold? would they clash with each other to
get to Terra first?

your post only shows how fractured the Clans really are, that they would
not cooperate for such a 'easy battle' as Tukkayyid. Even the most basic
mercenary unit would have done preliminary intelligence en route to the
damn planet!

best part is; he can't read this (he chose to ignore, which is only more damning to him)
but everyone else can and thus learn multiple perspectives and learn more!

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 23 November 2011 - 10:59 AM.

[B Billy]

I'll play which ever one lets me frag more of you in the fastest time.

So says the will of Blake

[Fiachdubh]

Voted yes but still think it would be best if the Clans were kept AI for at least a few months after their introduction. Maybe even keep them closed to use for two or more years. Save it as a carrot to attract people when/if things start to slow down or stagnate.

[Jack Gallows]

Jaroth Winson, on 23 November 2011 - 10:19 AM, said:

Thank for making the technical point. Since you started it, I will finish it. Your other point is rejected on the basis of facts. If the rest of the Clans had listened to Ulric they would have taken Terra. Even Anastasius Focht realized that. Do not try to be cheeky, especially when your own people know the truth & admitted it. Stone Rhino that goes for you as well.

And yet you point to a weakness while ignoring a basis of your own society. Does not might make right? You claim the Clans superior, yet they lost. You list reasons, as if it matters. You lost. To further this point, you lost more then once AND a Clan was destroyed completely. You cling to the fact that if you had worked together or listened to Ulric you would have fun, but it pinpoints you're weakness. "We could have one, cept that we're too blind/arrogant to work together!" Yes, this makes you look dominant. Again, I don't hate the Clans, and you're open to your opinion that they're flat out better, but the cold fact is that the Clans FAILED.

Jaroth Winson, on 23 November 2011 - 10:19 AM, said:

The Clans lost because they did not do what they were supposed to do; listen to the ilKhan. The one Clan that prepared itself for a long-term engagement, stocked adequate supplies, laid out a proper supply chain, protected said supply chain & disciplined itself to using a certain amount of ammunition & supplies per battle won on Tukayyid. The facts stand.

Wolf may have won, with the Ghost Bears obtaining a draw, but the Clans lost at Tukkayid. It matters not how well you did, because it wasn't based purely on Wolf's shoulders for victory.

Jaroth Winson, on 23 November 2011 - 10:19 AM, said:

Clanners were ALWAYS better.

Except when they're not.

The Clans are indeed powerful and amazing opponents and have a very interesting society, but they have as many glaring faults, just like any society.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Jack Gallows, on 23 November 2011 - 05:55 PM, said:

Wolf may have won, with the Ghost Bears obtaining a draw, but the Clans lost at Tukkayid. It matters not how well you did, because it wasn't based purely on Wolf's shoulders for victory.

Sad but true. If only they had listened to us.......................

[Blackfire1]

I'd rather play IS and steal me some **** clan tech. :3