262 replies to this topic

[Oogalook]

Here's a big thing. In the TT game, one of the only combat advantages of Inner Sphere mechs over Clanners was the IS pilots' willingness to use their mechs in melee. That's why no clan mechs have hands on their arms. The addition of melee attacks would give players a renewed reason to drive the Awesome or Atlas or Dragon, all of which sacrifice valuable crit space in their arms for lower-arm and wrist actuators for the express purpose of melee attacking.

When the Clan invasion rolls in, I don't want every mech in my bay to suddenly become obsolete. Please, PGI, throw us a bone!

What if you could use your mech's hands to grab your opponent's arm or torso to lock him in place? A brawler Atlas could grab hold of his opponent's arms and let fly with the greater firepower of his torso weapons.

[Sirslicey]

I don't really like the idea of melee weapons. At the most, just short range weapons for closer engagements. Basically stuff like SRM's and Flamers.

[Pz_DC]

Would be good only if it will to be balnced like they did with 3pv.

Edited by MGA121285, 19 February 2014 - 10:02 AM.

[BourbonFaucet]

I would like melee weapons, and physical attacks, but I have a bad feeling it'd lead to everyone simply developing the strategy of automatically tearing the hatchet arm first off of any carriers. Prepare to be focused.

[CDLord HHGD]

techorse, on 19 February 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

I would like melee weapons, and physical attacks, but I have a bad feeling it'd lead to everyone simply developing the strategy of automatically tearing the hatchet arm first off of any carriers. Prepare to be focused.

No worse than the torso of a Hunch, or the arm of a YLW..... TBH this isn't a detractor to not have melee... I want my Hatchetman!

[TehSBGX]

Slamming stuff in the head with a Mace is something I've wanted for a while, but we're gonna need colisions back first. Honestly, colisions are likely gone for good so melee will prolly never happen.

[SawedOffSamurai]

I voted yes but I dont think melee weapons are the answer. I do think that if for what ever reason you run out of ammo for all weapons that are stored in either of your arms or all the weapons in either of your arms gets destroyed, the fire button becomes a punch attack so at least your not completely useless once your black on ammo or weapons or something like that.

[SleekHusky]

Sorry in advanced if this is hard to read, I have issues with writing.

I didn't vote since I would like it however I am pretty sure it will be implemented horribly. If they could do it right though I would like physics to be correct. For example a smaller mech with a blunt weapon would not be able to knock over an Atlas for example HOWEVER if they had a bladed one they could do damage but with a chance the axe or whatever weapon gets stuck in the armor? I apologize if this is not at all canon to te franchise but the fear of melee being implemented breaking the game as everyone will be running around with them and the use of ranged weaponry becoming obsolete just feels like a likely happening.
Also mechs without arms (Catapult and Stalker for example) would still do a melee attack on a knocked over enemy mech by just stepping on it, however again factoring mass physics (i/e Raven will not be able to crush an knocked over Atlas). I swear I would love the knock over physics from beta to return just more refined. If a light mech pilot is skilled they would have to avoid running into an assault they are harrassing as it will likely lead to them being knocked over and they should NOT be invincible in that time and if the assault happens to step on them, game over for that mech. Also chicken walkers should probably have a harder time getting back up if knocked over unless they have controllable arms, however again with physics perhaps any weapon on the arm may have a chance of being damaged while getting back up due to having to support the mech's weight.

[Kalimaster]

There are several good Mechs that don't carry ranged weapons. A few have mixed effects, but also realize that several Mechs with Melee combat skills are converted, such as Construction Mechs. Yes they have that big claw, but almost no armor, are slow, and are just asking to get nailed by a Jager. It would take battles to new levels, where your Mech might have to get in close to fight, past waves of LRM's and untold cannon rounds.

[SleekHusky]

Kalimaster, on 24 March 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

There are several good Mechs that don't carry ranged weapons. A few have mixed effects, but also realize that several Mechs with Melee combat skills are converted, such as Construction Mechs. Yes they have that big claw, but almost no armor, are slow, and are just asking to get nailed by a Jager. It would take battles to new levels, where your Mech might have to get in close to fight, past waves of LRM's and untold cannon rounds.

I do remember the converted Mining Mech, The mining tool would devastate anything it could touch, but you are armored and limited to 25kph. The only ranged weapons was a single rack of lrms. Not to mention you got tank treads for feet, it would make large hilly laps like Alpine Peaks hell. It seems to fill even more of a niche than the urbie did.

But I think most people here want the Axeman and other purpose built combat mechs. If I recall Kurita did have quite a few with Katanas, would feel really badass to use one.

[Ansgar Odinson]

Want melee attack, want it in a bad way. This would change light strategy so much and prevent some tiny mech from hiding under an atlas's firing ark while stopping him dead in his tracks. If he could just kick the thing, lights would see assaults less as breakfast and more as a real threat they needed to attack from behind. Also less mediums and heavies would be keen to chest bump with assaults if they might get punched in the face.

[Ansgar Odinson]

Quote

now I haven't played the table top, so I don't have that connection there, but I personally just can't see it. I'm not gonna lie, I love mechs and mecha or whatever you call it, so I've played Armored Core and loved the heck outta it and it's melee mechanics. This however is mechwarrior, we don't have fancy shields, anime-esque designs, or over the top mobility. to me anyway Mechwarrior is the rough-and-tumble, gritty, brute-force, hell even crude type of game, we don't fly around crossing laser swords!

now lemme just repeat that I have no previous experience regarding mechwarrior/battle tech melee stuffs, I'm just a fan having played nothing before MW4, and as such I have a hard time seeing this. I know the humanoid mechs have hands, but I don't see them swinging an axe or something with enough force to do damage, look at the atlases(not sure if the atlas is on the melee capable list or not) swinging a sword horizontally with one arm (no way it could two hand it), the torso twist is slow as frick! and even if you say something like "oh but it's got almost 100 tons of force behind it" it still sounds ridiculous.

I'm just saying this is where I'm coming from, I know people will disagree- especially those who have experience with previous implementations of melee- but the current mwo gameplay feels familiar to me, and melee sounds as foreign to mechwarrior as magic.

In battletech they don't fly around crossing laser swords, that's not what is being proposed. We are talking about an atlas throwing a punch or an axeman (think of a thunderbolt with a battleaxe) Hacking off limbs. Don't think anime, think grit think groaning metal clattering actuators and showers of sparks.

[reaverOfCheesecake]

I like the idea mentioned by Rojolobo, but keep it simple in gameplay to start off with..

I believe that a simple push to get mechs away from you would be great. I also like the idea of mechs having the ability to trip over. If a mech trips, then it would pretty much mean the end for it as the recovery time would be around 5 seconds of constant fire heading your way, which would mean the end for you unless your group can keep the assailants off the unfortunate mech.

It's going to take a long time to implement a tripping and pushing feature i believe. The designers need to take into account new animation, related to the fall and recovery. This would be different for each mech type i.e. bird legged mechs need different trip and recovery to humanoid mechs (which can use their arms). There is also a set of animation algorithms which need to be created for recovering when a mech trips into a solid object. A humanoid mech can use it's arms to recover from a slumped position where as bird legs cannot, potentially giving better recovery time to humanoid mechs (another pro / con feature to consider when taking mechs into battle). There is also the potential for a domino affect. If a mech were to push it's target into another mech, would both mechs fall over, or just the third one due to the newtons cradle affect, meaning the the target mech should just stagger, even though it was the one pushed first. Finally we have to take weight and velocity into account. we shouldn't have a commando bullying an atlas around, pushing it into walls like a school boy with an attitude problem. however, a raven running into an atlas at 140kph should warrant at least a stagger from the atlas, if not a trip due to it being hit at 140kph by 35t of mass.

once you begin to think about the implications of such a request, it really does sound cool... but difficult to develop.

[Caesar Lop]

Definitely voting for this as it'd be a reason to keep Hand actuators on various Mechs. Only thing is, I'm at odds on how to implement melee for our beloved Battlemech (and even them Clan Omnis some of us brought from various Diamond Shark merchants while in The Periphery). I have a few ideas on how to go about that, but before we do, I'd like to define Physical Attacks under what I'm thinking. o.o

1. Punch (Req: Lower Arm and Hand Actuators)
A straightforward Physical Attack (literally) in which your Mech uses its battlefist to deal damage to a target with very little sideways offsetting. These are the most accurate types of Physical Attacks and also the most damaging as it can be 'aimed' to hit a Mech's head.

2. Swing (Req: Lower Arm Actuator)
A Physical Attack in which your Mech swings out the arm in question to deliver a side-hit. Not as accurate as a Punch and also not as damaging, but the nature of such a hit can disorient the pilot of the target Mech sideways

3. Kick
Simply put, your Mech attacks the target Mech's legs with its own feet. Not as versatile as a Punch or Swing, but depending on the severity of the damage, it may be possible to score a critical hit on the leg that was hit.

4. Handheld Melee Armament (Req: Hatchet, Sword, Mace)
--This one I'm still trying to work out. Ideas for this would be more than welcome.--


With that in mind, I can see two possible implementations. They are as follows:

1. Assign one key to Punching and/or Swinging and another key to Kicking. This would allow for a Mechwarrior to utilize Physical Attacks while firing his Mech's armament but would be a tad cumbersome due to the need to take at least one hand off of either the WASD keys or the mouse to do so.

2. Assign one key to toggle between conventional combat and 'Physical Attack Mode'. In Phyiscal Attack Mode, your Left Mouse Button triggers punches and/or swings while your Right Mouse Button triggers kicking attacks. Mechwarriors would no longer need to remove a hand from the mouse or WASD keys to engage in melee combat, but would have to switch Physical Attack Mode off to resume using his more conventional armament.

Originally I had an idea of using the External Camera as the basis for a Third-Person View Physical Attack Mode, but that idea I've scrapped as it felt too 'arcadey'. o.o

===

Of course, the biggest problem facing implementation of such a beloved TT feature is how to implement in in such a way it takes into account player latency. Animating all these attacks would be another thing, although that's more along the lines of being quite the workload if anything. o.o;

Edited by Caesar Lop, 18 June 2014 - 09:50 PM.

[Naduk]

melee is a must
my Yen lo wang misses his hatchet

[MrBlonde42]

Rojolobo, on 21 November 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

Nice to have a button to punch a Mech. Knock him over or do damage. Battletech has melee weapons. Mace, lance, chainsaw, pile driver ect. Would be great to push someone away when hitting a button.

I want this, BUT PGI probably won't implement this because they have problems with knock down and mech collisions as it is.

[Rotiart_Drol]

I think Melee should be implemented as a Module. But if you don't have fists/clamp things it would do damage to your weapons. Say, with the Atlas, if I were to hit a 'Mech a little damage would be done to my arms but not my weapons, but if I were a Summoner and I hit an Atlas, My weapons would be damaged as well as my arms. Maybe certain 'mechs can clamp on, like the King Crab, if I were to hit someone I could clamp on and do 15-20 DPS until I lose my grip. I could also shoot from the clamped arm to do some extra damage, at the expense of my arm armor if I am using Ballistics/Missiles.
Just sayin'

[Estonniel]

Yes, more brawling potential on this part. every mech that has a hand grip available that at least is a heavy or assault could carry a Melee Weapon. Axemech (steiner) would be available hands on for this one. as well as the Hatamoto with a katana like in the battletech cartoon.

however no weapons can be equipped to the arm housing a melee weapon at that time. as everything is powered for the use of the melee weapon + they are heavy as a Gauss or AC20 like. but also doing the same damage as it at the same time with a 3 to 4 seconds cool down for full animation to happen.

Edited by Estonniel, 23 September 2014 - 09:51 AM.

[ReXX]

Voted yes.

Melee attacks are a long time staple in the history of mech gaming. The fact that it's so important in BT and yet MW has traditionally left it out removes an important part of the feel of mech combat.

There are a few ways to make it work... but I think having it be an event you have to press a button for works best. I don't want to see people running around spamming the punch button, and many mech games punish you for using your melee weapon too often (energy, heat, animation cool down time, ect). Aliens vs Predator had an interesting death blow system, of which something similar could be worked in place, allowing larger mechs to grab, kick, or hammer fist smaller ones to deal devastating damage. Maybe have the limit be 25 tons lighter or more, or have other factors implemented to cause the allowance of this rather one sided melee event. For instance, everyone remembers the picture of an Atlas shoving its fist through a Warhawk who's lack of fists make it vulnerable. So mechs which lack hands could be especially vulnerable, maybe making it so that handless mechs only need to be 15 tons lighter for such death blows to happen. I don't want them to be instant kills, but they should be very punishing to the smaller mech that lets itself get closer.

Mechs which are armed with actual melee weapons could perhaps have a perk where they are able to enact death blows on mechs larger than themselves up to a certain weight limit, maybe up to 15-25 tons.

Non-death blows, used on larger or equal sized mechs would be a non-grapple or instant-hit scene where the mech provides the option to engage in a melee attack like the death blow, but it does not knock down or do seriously crippling damage, and the enemy mech may try to move out of the way. The melee attack would still only be available if with in a certain range and the appropriate button were clicked when the HUD indicates that conditions are met to engage in the attack.

Death Blows should be available for any mech on any enemy mech that has been knocked down.

Mechs with weapons, shields, or just a special deflect perk could have the option (who's percentage for how often the option appears on your HUD could perhaps be modified by a module which requires several upgrades in the skill tree) to block/deflect attacks. The same melee button would be used, instead the HUD would give a block icon for the player once the enemy mech has begun their death blow or melee attack. This would let them get out of the attack, and depending on weight or other factors, also stun the enemy mech, opening them to a counter attack.

There. That is how you implement melee with out it looking silly. It also makes melee attacks cinematic, and promotes clan mechs to fight as they're meant to. Also gives an inherent bonus to mechs with weapons besides raw damage out put. Some mechs could even perform iconic attacks, such as the Atlas face-smashing the Warhawk, or a Highlander with JJ's performing a Highlander Burial.

EDIT: Mechs with melee weapons should be the only ones which can use them, such as claws, axes, and swords. The option to remove them if they are a held weapon should either be made available, but other mechs shouldn't be able to carry them. That removes the uniqueness of the specialized melee mechs too much.

Edited by ReXX, 25 October 2014 - 03:09 AM.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

yup, melee hard point