187 replies to this topic

[Havoc One]

Hey devs, I just wanted to say seeing you guys post in the forum like this is awesome, you guys actively participating in conversations is great. It makes me feel ok with spending money on the game now knowing you guys are committed and involved (there goes 50 bucks!). The last week or so has been frustrating with glitches and dropping out of matches (especially frustrating when my yen lo is locked in a game where I cant see or my screen is all yellow) but having you guys responding and being awesome gives a lot of hope for the future.

It seems that you guys don't always get the deserved love, the fact that people rip on you for trying to save a dying franchise and make it main stream again is ridiculous. Just know there are people out there who watch the forums often for new info but will never post themselves, any info you can put up for us to read is great and we appreciate it.

Thanks for trying to save my favorite IP

Havoc

[Mr 144]

Thanks for the responses PGI If you touch this thread again in the morning, could you answer one more nagging critical hit question?

How are empty slots handled?

This has implications on a 'full' mech using endosteel actually more survivable as who really cares if those are hit, whereas without something occupying those slots, all chances are directed at weapons and engine. If crtitcal hits on an empty section simply count towards the section HP, then it's even more important to fill your mech's slots in order to provide a 'buffer'.

Frankly, I don't see a way around this, but would like to know just how empty critical slots are effected by critical hits. I hope I'm explaining my question adequately.

Mr 144

[Orzorn]

Mr 144, on 22 November 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

Thanks for the responses PGI If you touch this thread again in the morning, could you answer one more nagging critical hit question?

How are empty slots handled?

This has implications on a 'full' mech using endosteel actually more survivable as who really cares if those are hit, whereas without something occupying those slots, all chances are directed at weapons and engine. If crtitcal hits on an empty section simply count towards the section HP, then it's even more important to fill your mech's slots in order to provide a 'buffer'.

Frankly, I don't see a way around this, but would like to know just how empty critical slots are effected by critical hits. I hope I'm explaining my question adequately.

Mr 144

If I recall correct, in the TT, a roll against an empty or otherwise un-crittable (endo steel) slot was re-rolled. Basically, if you rolled a successful critical hit, you would always critically hit something. Makes sense, if you consider that the first roll says "yes, you critically hit something", and the second determines what that was. Since you can't critically hit endo steel, then you ignore those rolls as though they didn't exist, and re-roll until you get something you can critically hit.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Problem with Double Heat Sinks. KEY WORD: DOUBLE.

Standard Heat Sinks: 1
Double Heat Sinks: 1.4

I may be a product of Public Education in TEXAS, but, unless my teachers lied all through elementary, middle, high school and even in college, 1.4 is NOT DOUBLE of 1.0. it is in fact not even 1 and a HALF times, its 1.4 times, which, lets face it, is not double.

[SteelPaladin]

Mr 144, on 22 November 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

Thanks for the responses PGI If you touch this thread again in the morning, could you answer one more nagging critical hit question?

How are empty slots handled?

This has implications on a 'full' mech using endosteel actually more survivable as who really cares if those are hit, whereas without something occupying those slots, all chances are directed at weapons and engine. If crtitcal hits on an empty section simply count towards the section HP, then it's even more important to fill your mech's slots in order to provide a 'buffer'.

Frankly, I don't see a way around this, but would like to know just how empty critical slots are effected by critical hits. I hope I'm explaining my question adequately.

Mr 144

A confirmation post would be nice, but they said back in closed beta that it works just like TT. Empty slots and/or ES/FF are "roll again." The system just keeps rolling until the appropriate number of critical hits are applied to actual gear.

Also, damage to internal structure is applied regardless of if you get a crit or not, so there is no such thing as a "buffer" to protect your HP. If an AC/5 hits an unarmored panel, that section is taking 5 damage no matter what. Only after that does it roll to see if crits happen on top of the internal structure damage. The only thing you can "buffer" is to pad your slots w/items to reduce the chance that each will take a hit (e.g. if you only have a medium laser in a section, it will ALWAYS take any crits that are rolled in that section, but if you have the laser and a DHS, the laser only has a 25% chance to take the crit while the DHS has a 75% chance).

[Asatruer]

Squid von Torgar, on 22 November 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

3) It was mentioned some time ago that weapons of the same type, mounted in the same location would generate more heat. Has this been implemented? If so by what factor is the heat raised?

Bryan Ekman, on 22 November 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

Courtsey of Mr. Bradley.

David Bradley said:

3) This has not been implemented.

Please for the sake of balance and fairness do not do this. Increasing the heat produced by weapons in the same location with the intent to discourage weapon boating has a larger impact on mechs that boat their weapons all in one locations, rather than mechs that boat the same or a similar amount of weapons spread out all throughout the mech.
The very nature of spreading weapons out to various locations rather than keeping them tightly grouped in one spot is already a disadvantage, as it makes it possible to take out a larger percentage of the mech's firepower by damaging or destroying less of the mech.
The CDA-2A vs a JR7-F, both have 6 energy hardpoints, but taking out an arm of the JR7-F reduces its firepower by half (3 of the hardpoints) compared to taking out a side torso of the CDA-2A, which only reduces its firepower by one third (2 of the hardpoints).
Similarly, the HBK-4P with 9 energy hardpoints, destroy the right torso and it looses up to 7/9ths (78%) of its firepower, while a AWS-8Q (with 7 hardpoints) loosing the right torso costs it 4/7ths (57%), or the AWS-9M (6 hardpoints) loosing the right torso (yet again) costs it 1/3rd (33.34%) of its non-missile firepower.

The only advantages to putting most of a mech's weapons in one place that I can think of, at the moment, are being able to take more advantage of cover, and potentially under armoring the less weapon heavy side. Neither seem to me to be enough of a benefit to justify both the dangers of putting them all in one place on top of a proposed increase in the heat they produce.

If the heat cost of boating lots of little weapons needs to be increased to counter-act the convergence system making them more potent an option than this tactic would have been in BattleTech, then it should be applied not to weapons fired together that are mounted in the same location, but just weapons that are fired together.

[Mr 144]

Orzorn, on 22 November 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

If I recall correct, in the TT, a roll against an empty or otherwise un-crittable (endo steel) slot was re-rolled. Basically, if you rolled a successful critical hit, you would always critically hit something. Makes sense, if you consider that the first roll says "yes, you critically hit something", and the second determines what that was. Since you can't critically hit endo steel, then you ignore those rolls as though they didn't exist, and re-roll until you get something you can critically hit.

SteelPaladin, on 22 November 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

A confirmation post would be nice, but they said back in closed beta that it works just like TT. Empty slots and/or ES/FF are "roll again." The system just keeps rolling until the appropriate number of critical hits are applied to actual gear.

Also, damage to internal structure is applied regardless of if you get a crit or not, so there is no such thing as a "buffer" to protect your HP. If an AC/5 hits an unarmored panel, that section is taking 5 damage no matter what. Only after that does it roll to see if crits happen on top of the internal structure damage. The only thing you can "buffer" is to pad your slots w/items to reduce the chance that each will take a hit (e.g. if you only have a medium laser in a section, it will ALWAYS take any crits that are rolled in that section, but if you have the laser and a DHS, the laser only has a 25% chance to take the crit while the DHS has a 75% chance).

Thanks, and yes I recall the talk in CB, but was just looking for specific confirmation. Nice to know about ES/FF though..that I did not know. Wouldn't be the first time MWO does not follow TT entirely.

Mr 144

[ollo]

NaerahQc, on 22 November 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

Back in close beta, Bryan (i think) said that he didn't want to bother taking 15 min of the programmers time to get detailed info about issues because thats 15 min where the guys were not fixing things. Well i completly disagree, i beleive he or someone else should take that time because we want those data.

Plus, i hope it's not the programmers deciding on these values in a lunchbreak. There SHOULD be concepts defining what is to be developed and with what parameters.

[Sean von Steinike]

Rejarial Galatan, on 22 November 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

Problem with Double Heat Sinks. KEY WORD: DOUBLE.

Standard Heat Sinks: 1
Double Heat Sinks: 1.4

I may be a product of Public Education in TEXAS, but, unless my teachers lied all through elementary, middle, high school and even in college, 1.4 is NOT DOUBLE of 1.0. it is in fact not even 1 and a HALF times, its 1.4 times, which, lets face it, is not double.

Funny bone, is not a bone.
Chinese checkers, was not invented by the Chinese
Koala bears, are not of the ursine family.
Pencil lead, is not made of actual lead
Guinea pigs are not pigs, nor do they originate from Guinea
A peanut, is not a nut, but a legume.

Perhaps the term misnomer can be added to your vocabulary and make you feel better about them being called "double".

[Rejarial Galatan]

Sean: Sarcasm is not Sarcasm. TT rules, of which ROF not included, the values for heat ARE 100% Table Top, BUT, our heat sinks are not for some screwed up reason. This is a bad move, one among many they seem to do.

[Asmosis]

Quote

Critical damage to the side torso hit boxes of XL engines deals damage to the engine as a whole. However, it should be noted that, currently, critical damage to your engine will not disable it, but simply add to your repair bill. This is likely to change when we do the pass on the health values

So does this mean crit hits on engines are essentially null and void? since you can only damage not disable it? i've had plenty of matches where i've died to RT/LT hits when using XL, i'd assumed that was the cause.

Or does this mean 15 damage to your engine and its game over, but 14 damage and your not getting any speed penalties or cause you to stop dead and only twist/shoot.

Edited by Asmosis, 22 November 2012 - 11:07 PM.

[Krivvan]

Asmosis, on 22 November 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

So does this mean crit hits on engines are essentially null and void? since you can only damage not disable it? i've had plenty of matches where i've died to RT/LT hits when using XL, i'd assumed that was the cause.

Or does this mean 15 damage to your engine and its game over, but 14 damage and your not getting any speed penalties or cause you to stop dead and only twist/shoot.

No, it's the destruction of the whole side torso that will kill the engine inside. What he's saying is that engines currently cannot be destroyed solely from crit damage without destroying the entire component first.

Engines have their own HP. There is also the HP for the center torso and side torsos. Destruction of the center or side torsos will kill you. Damage to engine HP will do nothing except add to repair bills. He was only referring to the Engine HP.

Edited by Krivvan, 22 November 2012 - 11:29 PM.

[The Cheese]

Rejarial Galatan, on 22 November 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

Sean: Sarcasm is not Sarcasm. TT rules, of which ROF not included, the values for heat ARE 100% Table Top, BUT, our heat sinks are not for some screwed up reason. This is a bad move, one among many they seem to do.

I'm entirely convinced now that you're a troll.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Cheese think what ever you want of me. I wont stop you. Look at this logically, and then look at TT, then look at MWO. Logical: if standard is 1, and we then DOUBLE, logic and math give us 2. TT: standard was/is 1, double, is 2. MWO? Part 1: standard is 1. okay, this is correct. DOUBLE: 1.4???? Math FAIL. LOGIC FAIL. IF you want to only boost .4, then, ROF must slow down to keep balance, because laser boats for example, or PPC boats even, cannot function at FULL power w/out spending atleast 1/3 the match in heat related shut down. HELL, even my atlas at 1.27 on the heat cannot sustain even 4 ML for long, and I run 13 DHS.

And cheese: you doubt anything I say because you count me a troll? Well, read this, taken DIRECTLY FROM SARNA:


Description

Double Heat Sinks, often abbreviated DHS and colloquially also referred to as Freezers throughout the Inner Sphere after their NAIS codename^[1], operate in much the same way and for the same purpose as standard heat sinks. The difference is that a double heat sink offers twice the heat dissipation capacity of a standard heat sink, for the same mass (one ton).

Their drawback is that they are much bulkier than a standard heat sink (unless integrated into a fusion engine).
The advanced Clan version twice the size of a standard heat sink; Star League era double heat sinks and those later (re-)developed by the Inner Sphere are three times as bulky as a standard heat sink.

Also, double heat sinks are normally incompatible with standard heat sinks. A given unit must therefore be equipped exclusively with either standard or double heat sinks, though exceptions are known.^[2]

end of story. OUR DHS THIS game are NOT DOUBLE.

edit: removed those silly color codes

Edited by Rejarial Galatan, 22 November 2012 - 11:36 PM.

[Krivvan]

Rejarial Galatan, on 22 November 2012 - 11:34 PM, said:

Cheese think what ever you want of me. I wont stop you. Look at this logically, and then look at TT, then look at MWO. Logical: if standard is 1, and we then DOUBLE, logic and math give us 2. TT: standard was/is 1, double, is 2. MWO? Part 1: standard is 1. okay, this is correct. DOUBLE: 1.4???? Math FAIL. LOGIC FAIL. IF you want to only boost .4, then, ROF must slow down to keep balance, because laser boats for example, or PPC boats even, cannot function at FULL power w/out spending atleast 1/3 the match in heat related shut down. HELL, even my atlas at 1.27 on the heat cannot sustain even 4 ML for long, and I run 13 DHS.

Ok, one thing we need to clear up.

Is your argument based on mechanics (as your post here seems to indicate)?

Or is your argument based on the name alone?

Because your post earlier implied that your issue was the misnomer, not the mechanics themselves. Sean rebutted your argument that it's bad because of the misnomer. If you're talking about the mechanics then you're talking about something different.

Also, why not put single heat sinks on Atlases? It's not like you're forced to use DHS.

Edited by Krivvan, 22 November 2012 - 11:38 PM.

[The Cheese]

Rejarial Galatan, on 22 November 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

Cheese think what ever you want of me. I wont stop you. Look at this logically, and then look at TT, then look at MWO. Logical: if standard is 1, and we then DOUBLE, logic and math give us 2. TT: standard was/is 1, double, is 2. MWO? Part 1: standard is 1. okay, this is correct. DOUBLE: 1.4???? Math FAIL. LOGIC FAIL. IF you want to only boost .4, then, ROF must slow down to keep balance, because laser boats for example, or PPC boats even, cannot function at FULL power w/out spending atleast 1/3 the match in heat related shut down. HELL, even my atlas at 1.27 on the heat cannot sustain even 4 ML for long, and I run 13 DHS.

And cheese: you doubt anything I say because you count me a troll? Well, read this, taken DIRECTLY FROM SARNA:


Description

Double Heat Sinks, often abbreviated DHS and colloquially also referred to as Freezers throughout the Inner Sphere after their NAIS codename^[1], operate in much the same way and for the same purpose as standard heat sinks. The difference is that a double heat sink offers twice the heat dissipation capacity of a standard heat sink, for the same mass (one ton).

Their drawback is that they are much bulkier than a standard heat sink (unless integrated into a fusion engine).
The advanced Clan version twice the size of a standard heat sink; Star League era double heat sinks and those later (re-)developed by the Inner Sphere are three times as bulky as a standard heat sink.

Also, double heat sinks are normally incompatible with standard heat sinks. A given unit must therefore be equipped exclusively with either standard or double heat sinks, though exceptions are known.^[2]

end of story. OUR DHS THIS game are NOT DOUBLE.

edit: removed those silly color codes

I don't doubt what you are saying, I doubt your reasoning. I think you're a troll because your arguments always consist of rejecting something simply because it doesn't fit with TT rules or BT lore. A playable game always comes second to your view of reality mixed with battletech canon, lore and TT rules, it seems.

I know all about why they're called DHS, and how what we have in game does not actually sink double the heat. In a nutshell, BT-definition DHS would break the game. Would you be less teary about it if they were called "1.4 HS" instead of "DHS"?

Edited by The Cheese, 22 November 2012 - 11:45 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Krivvan, on 22 November 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

Ok, one thing we need to clear up.

Is your argument based on mechanics (as your post here seems to indicate)?

Or is your argument based on the name alone?

Because your post earlier implied that your issue was the misnomer, not the mechanics themselves. Sean rebutted your argument that it's bad because of the misnomer. If you're talking about the mechanics then you're talking about something different.

Also, why not put single heat sinks on Atlases? It's not like you're forced to use DHS.

because minor though it may be, i am getting about 1-2 seconds MORE fire time over all on caustic valley for example. that, and if my full build is to be realized, i need to shed as much excess weight from the atlas as i can.

Cheese: I am upset because they are using TT values for HEAT in SOME cases, but tossing those values clear out the door in other cases. Either use them across the board, or find a new set to use because its not remotely balanced.

[The Cheese]

Rejarial Galatan, on 22 November 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

Cheese: I am upset because they are using TT values for HEAT in SOME cases, but tossing those values clear out the door in other cases. Either use them across the board, or find a new set to use because its not remotely balanced.

Heat is fine. You just need to learn to play the game you've got, rather than the game you want.

[shabowie]

The Cheese, on 22 November 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

I know all about why they're called DHS, and how what we have in game does not actually sink double the heat. In a nutshell, BT-definition DHS would break the game.

We don't know true DHS would break the game. We do know that some of the fishing stories we heard about them in internal testing are impossible.

With internal engine HS currently being doubles and external being 1.4s Large Lasers are finally becoming viable. If we had true doubles ER PPCs might start to become viable as well.

Edited by shabowie, 23 November 2012 - 12:40 AM.

[Volthorne]

Laokin, on 22 November 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

See TF2. This game has critical hits, but it has an option to disable them, and everyone who is not a "Casual" plays with them off.

Excuse me? I think not, good sir. The only way you can "turn off crits" is to play on a dedicated server, and even then NO ONE does that. Of the 5000 dedicated servers world-wide, you'd be hard-pressed to find ONE that has crits disabled. Why? Because crits are a part of the fun. It's hilarious seeing a Scout rush get decimated by a single crocket fired by a Soldier at the last second. It's awesome when you get the meat-shot (Force-a-nature shotgun for Scout double-tapped at point-blank range) crit on a Heavy who is about to wreck your ****. Combat Medics are pure win for pumping out critical hits just for the lolz.

Turning off critical hits "because you're a casual if they're on"? ***** please, you can't even begin to fathom how wrong you are.

I think the issue you have is most definitely with the lack of notification rather than anything else. That, and the fact that you have no idea how they actually work. Look, it's easy, see:

Critical hits = component damage. Component damge != structural damage.

Edited by Volthorne, 23 November 2012 - 01:16 AM.