457 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

Pariah Devalis, on 27 January 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

The only flaw I can see there is that in order for there to be a truth to hold things in comparison to, something needs to be defined as true. Who decides that? Outside of tangible realities and facts, it ends up falling back into a subjective trap unless everyone (or, at least, enough people - whatever "enough" is, which could probably be its own rant) decides one way or another on a given item to call true. And when it comes to people, good luck with that, since everyone seems to see the world in their own way - with overlap of course.

As an aside, I like morality or ethics as a discussion topic for the same reason I like calm, reasonable discussions about religion. Even if there seems to be no solid end point to arrive at, respectable discussion of it still makes one think, one way or another.

With a nearly total overlap, actually; most major moral codes agree with each other to a surprising degree - which is what you'd expect if there was some actual objective morality out there. The differences are important, mind; but they're important details.

The thing about who decides morality is actually quite simple in theory - and difficult and complicated in practice. Once you start out from the axiomatic truth that truth exists, you can set about using reason to find it. But you're not going to get to it by logic alone - as Asimov said through a character in his book I, Robot, "You can prove anything you want by coldly logical reason - if you pick the proper postulates." So you have to look at what the proper postulates might be (in other words, which world-view to use,) and it's a messy, contentious process - but not, I think, a futile one. The key point is that you have to believe in facts in order to get anywhere; they're axiomatic. As soon as you say "there's no way to know truth for certain," in any subject you run into the unanswerable question - "how do you know for certain that that's true?"

Edited by Void Angel, 27 January 2013 - 10:47 PM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Jaroth Winson, on 27 January 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

Please provide an example of what you are talking about.

Lost Destiny, when Deidre Lear tells Kai Allard-Liao what happened to her M.A.S.H. unit on Alyina while he was saving Victor Steiner-Davion from the Falcon ambush.

[Ken Fury]

Westonard, on 27 January 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

But it was Nicholas Kerensky who realized "Holy ****, this kind of war fare is absolutely ********." and came up with the clans, and the beliefs they have, to limit the impact that war has on non warriors.

Yeah cause going to war is fun! And it shouldn't come with any of that pesky remorse. Not like they could not have simulator fights to do that. The whole Idea NK had was totally bullocks, it just went through because SCRIPT ADVANTAGE.

[Westonard]

Tank Boy Ken, on 27 January 2013 - 11:51 PM, said:

Yeah cause going to war is fun! And it shouldn't come with any of that pesky remorse. Not like they could not have simulator fights to do that. The whole Idea NK had was totally bullocks, it just went through because SCRIPT ADVANTAGE.

The problem here is you are holding NK to some greater standard than the IS. They are human, just like the Inner Sphere is. They have the same flaws that any human being has. Battletech has said this again and again and again. Again, you are completely ignoring that the IS did the exact same thing, and more often than not, worse than anything the clans did, or have done, to themselves, or the IS since they invaded. He never made war 'fun' he made it so that it limited the impact it had outside of combat. Which would you prefer? A battle in your home where the victors shoot you and your family simply for living in another nation? Or one where people fight in such a way as to leave you alone after they take over? Liao and Kuria would not hesitate to kill civilians to send a message. The clans actively punished people who did that. Please, try to hold the clans to a different standard than the rest of the setting because you might have a bad taste because of how they were introduced in table top.It does more harm to your argument.

Edit: There is irony in your forum profile image. The Capellan Confederation is one of the worst offenders of the treatment of anyone, civilian or soldier, their own people or their enemies, that there is in the entirety of the Battletech setting. And yet you are holding the Clans to some higher ideal because they can trace their geneology to someone who wanted, and failed, at keeping his people from falling into the same sort of fighting that the IS did.

Edited by Westonard, 28 January 2013 - 12:05 AM.

[Ken Fury]

Well I'm not pretending that House Liao is the best thing ever. And since I'm part of the noble Tetatae Bridwarriors from the peaceful Kaetetôá, we are spreading the Word of Lowtax and have taken over House Liao to save the Inner Sphere.

Also the Clans are fascist!

[Ashla Mason]

You really should stop Liking your own posts Tank Boy, it makes you look like a narcicist.

And besides that: no matter how you try and spin it, you are actively supporting a house that makes open use of slavery of individuals who don't measure up to the arbitrary standards of some jack *** who died centuries ago. How is that any better then the way the clans have structured their own society?

[Ken Fury]

Ashla Mason, on 28 January 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

You really should stop Liking your own posts Tank Boy, it makes you look like a narcicist.

And besides that: no matter how you try and spin it, you are actively supporting a house that makes open use of slavery of individuals who don't measure up to the arbitrary standards of some jack *** who died centuries ago. How is that any better then the way the clans have structured their own society?

But I like my posts! And everyone should know that!

That's one of the Reasons the Tetatae have taken over!

reference: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tetatae

[Terran123rd]

I've already responded, but I've got another reason:

Zellbrigen is fun!

[Ken Fury]

Terran123rd, on 28 January 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

I've already responded, but I've got another reason:

Zellbrigen is fun!

We encourage every Clan Warrior to completly adhere to Zellbriggen. While we are sorry that we're not able to comply with those rules, we accept that you are happier while playing along those rules. We which you to have fun, though it's more fun for us to work together since Birds are Teamplayers.

[Ashla Mason]

Tank Boy Ken, on 28 January 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

But I like my posts! And everyone should know that!

That's one of the Reasons the Tetatae have taken over!

reference: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tetatae

Quote

The Line Developer's official stance is that technically, the novel Far Country is fully canonical, as are the Tetatae featured in the story. However, it has also been made clear that sentient aliens are considered incompatible with the BattleTech aesthetics and that aliens, particularly the Tetatae, will not be revisited in the fiction. Further references to the Tetatae are deliberately avoided. Their homeworld appears to be beyond any area of space known or accessible to humankind; it was only ever reached twice by human JumpShips through accidential and fatal misjumps, and there is no known way to leave the system again. This conveniently keeps the Tetatae separated from the rest of the BattleTech universe for good.

While the tetate are canon, they might as well not be.

So please: Tell us more about the wonders of state slavery in the confederacy.

[Ken Fury]

Ashla Mason, on 28 January 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

While the tetate are canon, they might as well not be.

So please: Tell us more about the wonders of state slavery in the confederacy.

You're wrong, you just haven't realized how wrong:
http://mwomercs.com/...m/152-kaetetoa/

We have managed to hyperjump several times already.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Tank Boy Ken, on 28 January 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

We encourage every Clan Warrior to completly adhere to Zellbriggen. While we are sorry that we're not able to comply with those rules, we accept that you are happier while playing along those rules. We which you to have fun, though it's more fun for us to work together since Birds are Teamplayers.

We encourage you to play as you do because teaming up on a warrior negates zellbrigen, allowing us to bring the full might of our arms down upon you. So please continue doing what you are doing, in fact we WISH that you do.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 28 January 2013 - 07:11 AM.

[Ashla Mason]

Tank Boy Ken, on 28 January 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

You're wrong, you just haven't realized how wrong:
http://mwomercs.com/...m/152-kaetetoa/

We have managed to hyperjump several times already.

That's nice.

You're still stuck in a room with no doors and representing a Nation that uses slavery.

[Ken Fury]

Jaroth Winson, on 28 January 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

We encourage you to play as you do because teaming up on a warrior negates zellbrigen, allowing us to bring the full might of our arms down upon you. So please continue doing what you are doing, in fact we WISH that you do.

Since when did Clan Wolf honeure Zellbriggen?

Ashla Mason, on 28 January 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

That's nice.

You're still stuck in a room with no doors and representing a Nation that uses slavery.

The room I'm currently in has multiple Doors.

Edited by Tank Boy Ken, 28 January 2013 - 07:19 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

You asked the wrong question. It should be when did they STOP offering/using it. After the periphery warmup encounter with the 1st Oberon Guards on Crellacor & Ryan's Rebels on The Rock is the answer. A batchall was issued & a curse was the reply.

[Ashla Mason]

Tank Boy Ken, on 28 January 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

The room I'm currently in has multiple Doors.

It specificly states in far country (the only canon material that acknowledges the existence of a sentient non-human species) that jump out is impossible thus the idiom room with no doors.

And still waiting to hear you explain why the Cappellan's caste system is in any way better then the clans.

[Sadistic Savior]

Ashla Mason, on 28 January 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

You really should stop Liking your own posts Tank Boy, it makes you look like a narcicist.

LOL!

Edited by Sadistic Savior, 28 January 2013 - 10:16 AM.

[Ken Fury]

Ashla Mason, on 28 January 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

It specificly states in far country (the only canon material that acknowledges the existence of a sentient non-human species) that jump out is impossible thus the idiom room with no doors.

And still waiting to hear you explain why the Cappellan's caste system is in any way better then the clans.

1) Not impossible just unknown:

Quote

there is no known way to leave the system again.

, there is no reason to believe that it's not possible. Just because a lot of pubbies dislike some friendly Aliens in their Sci-Fi.


Why should I explain something, which I never stated? Explain that to me please. I never said the CC Caste System is better or worse than the Clan system. My first statement in this thread is about the Clans having a ruling body that is determined by Combat prowess (Trial of Positions (to become a warrior) and Trial of Bloodright + Grand Melee (to sit in the Clan council/become Khan)).
Which stands unrebuked. Just that the Khan gets elected isn't making the Clans into some kind of super society which selects leaders by their proven worthyness. Combat is still the deciding factor since every ruling by the Clan Council can be turned around 180° by a Trial of Refusal.

[Ashla Mason]

Tank Boy Ken, on 28 January 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

1) Not impossible just unknown: , there is no reason to believe that it's not possible. Just because a lot of pubbies dislike some friendly Aliens in their Sci-Fi.

1. The tetatae are a pre industrial revolution society with no grasp of the Kearny Fuchida hyperspace theories and none of the rest of the people in the setting were possessed of an understanding of how jump drives function. Hell, getting to the moon was a herculean feat for these people.

1. People disliked the tetatae because it didn't mesh with the rest of the setting. You want aliens and giant robots in one setting? Go play Robotech.

Quote

Why should I explain something, which I never stated? Explain that to me please. I never said the CC Caste System is better or worse than the Clan system. My first statement in this thread is about the Clans having a ruling body that is determined by Combat prowess (Trial of Positions (to become a warrior) and Trial of Bloodright + Grand Melee (to sit in the Clan council/become Khan)).
Which stands unrebuked. Just that the Khan gets elected isn't making the Clans into some kind of super society which selects leaders by their proven worthyness. Combat is still the deciding factor since every ruling by the Clan Council can be turned around 180° by a Trial of Refusal.

1: no one is arguing that the clans are some sort of perfect society so much as we are able to admire the way they've chosen to dedicate themselves to the execution of efficient warfare.

2: If a leader is consistently getting his people mangled or failing to achieve victory in a timely fashion he will be ousted almost assuredly long before he gets near the seat of saKhan or kaKhan, and even if someone gains one of those seats, he will find himself replaced by someone who is more capable. If he is particularly obstinate about it and performs a challenge of refusal, then he a) risks touching off a clan civil war which would leave the victor dangerously vulnerable to other clans and/or risks facing the challenger as well as all those who supported him which could make the odds somewhere in the neighbourhood of 30:1 very easily.

During the Clan invasion, something like this actually happened with clan ghostbear's newly minted Sakhan calling for the Kakhan to be replaced by another warrior. Mercifully, his opponent chose to fight him by himself as opposed to having every blood named warrior in the touman curb stomp him.

3. I am challenging you to make the case for the Confederation because I am tired of people coming into this corner of the forums and venting their disgust with the clans while failing to acknowledge the inherent flaws in the faction they've chosen to represent.

So please: tell me how the cult like loyalty to the "eccentric" liao's is better then the clan's system where someone has to earn the right to sit at the head of the table, and continually prove that they deserve to be their every day that they want to stay there.

[Ken Fury]

1) Only one part of that world got coverage. There is nothing disproving the existence of Tetatae with a higher Tech level.
1) I am playing Robotech (this game).
2) So you agree, that's pretty cool.
3) Well actually the Leader of House Liao also has to fight to stay where they are. With all those infightings. It's not like there ain't power play on the Top in the IS Houses.

4) I don't think the Clans are disgusting, they are a very funny cliche!

Edited by Tank Boy Ken, 28 January 2013 - 11:50 AM.