457 replies to this topic

[Ashla Mason]

Cik, on 30 January 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

[REDACTED]

Edited by Helmer, 31 January 2013 - 06:34 PM.
Clean up from previous inapproprate post

[fil5000]

Cik, on 30 January 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

[REDACTED]

1) even we have limits
2) [REDACTED]? nice bit of bigotry there. great job, go hog wild!

Edited by Helmer, 31 January 2013 - 06:33 PM.
Clean up from previous inappropriate post

[Ramrod]

fil5000, on 30 January 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

2) "[REDACTED] nice bit of bigotry there. great job, go hog wild!

It's a 4chan expression. The bigotry should come as no surprise.


PS. omg hi



EDIT: the post below this one is not clever or funny and should not exist.

Edited by Helmer, 31 January 2013 - 06:32 PM.
Clean up from previous inappropriate post

[Rushin Roulette]

fil5000, on 30 January 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

1) even we have limits

And if you beleive that... then I have a used catapult you can buy with 1 balistic hardpoint. hardly used and looks like new. It even features the newest ejector seat technology found in last years discovered lostech cache;

Spoiler

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 31 January 2013 - 01:45 AM.

[fil5000]

Rushin Roulette, on 31 January 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

[/size]

And if you beleive that... then I have a used catapult you can buy with 1 balistic hardpoint. hardly used and looks like new. It even features the newest ejector seat technology found in last years discovered lostech cache;

Spoiler

Yeah, you're right buddy, we have literally no rules and absolutely anything goes. Good work on posting a picture of a thing.

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

Stormwolf, on 30 January 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

Quite a number actually, Ulric Kerensky and every single Sea Fox/Diamond Shark Khan come to mind.
There is a bit more to the Clans then all the stereotypes people love to cling to. Sure there's a ton of unrealistic stuff, but the same can be said about ever faction in the game, but that's the fun part of the setting.


Sorry that I interrupted the Clan bashing, please continue.

Quite a few is not:
1 individual of Clan Wolf (of which we know quite a lot) and the Khans of a single clan.

We aren't talking about 'the fun part of the setting' we are talking about why people like the clans. And the clans being run by people who haven't a clue about how to run a functional society is a disaster.
We have had several books come out about the life and times of up and coming warriors, can you please quote the areas where they attend studies on economics, psychology, agriculture, political science?

How exactly is a warrior supposed to have a firm grasp of economics when they don't handle money?

I suppose this is why they fight over everything, they don't have a clue on how to handle things any other way. I guess it also explains why they copulate with their sibkin (effectively brothers and sisters). I suppose demanding a Trial of Refusal when Sarah Jane tells you that you are too creepy to go with her to the Prom is bad form.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Strum Wealh, on 30 January 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

A minor point on that - it's not that they're sterile by default, but that "both males and females received long-term contraceptive implants while infants".

This is explicitly stated in the Dark Age novel Flight of the Falcon, in reference to how "among the Clans sexual liaisons between sibkin were not remarkable and were not discouraged" and the (extra-close and extra-skeezy) relationship between sibkin Aleksandr Hazen and Malvina Hazen (the only two of their sibko to survive to maturity, and who actually referred to each other as "brother" and "sister").

Though, Warriors of Kerensky states that "Despite advances in genetic screening, the Clans still retain a form of ****** taboo. Clan law discourages the combining of genes from closely relater warriors, usually taken to be within three generations."

So, what does that make of Diana Pryde?

Those Hazens were weird. I do not even know where to begin, but they were written that way for a purpose. Diana was an aberration as she was made the natural "freebirth" way.. Aidan was not supposed to be where Peri was. It just happened.

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 30 January 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Most people in this thread are not ready to grasp that concept, they are still on their way to be millionaires and rock stars.

If you we're a clanner, you would almost certainly be a laborer, and you would never ever be able to change it.

Eventually most will figure out that it mirrors life in that only a tiny percentage of the clan population are warriors and then only a small percentage of them have any real power. And how many of those warriors in charge and are making decisions have a strong background in economics or social policy? What do you think a Smoke Jaguar ilKhan would think of a proposal to improve infrastructure on a world by expanding bridges and revamping a sewer system?

The ones in charge of everything only know how to destroy and kill.

It boggles the mind how their society has even survived.

You know damn well why you used Smoke Jaguar in your example. No the ones in charge do NOT only know how to destroy & kill. Almost all the Clans are deep into the scientist, tech & merchant aspects of their society. Look at the Jade Falcons, strong traditionalists yet they saw the wisdom in having their merchants work with some leeway in order to get economically stable.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 31 January 2013 - 07:05 AM.

[Ashla Mason]

When discussing clans as a whole, it's probably best not to cite SJ as an example of anything since they were an extreme case of being pro warrior; anyone that wasn't a trueborn warrior from their bloodhouses was considered inherrently inferior.

But since people are argueing that the khans are clueless about anything other then killing, let me learn you some facts.

First, there society was designed with 5 castes; warrior, scientist, merchant, technician and labourer. We all know about the warrior caste and why they are important to the overarching goal of their society (execution of efficient warfare), but lets take a look at some of the other castes shall we?

Scientists have considerable sway over the khan since without them, the clan has no future. It is they who determine the most optimal legacies (Re: genetic materials from approved warriors) for combination and can also advise the khan on which clans to challenge for their legacies. If the khan ignores them, then he gambles with the clan's future. Also: they provide the clan with new mech's weapons, and other problems.

Merchants are arguablly more powerful then Scientists, since they control trade and provide administration duties for labourer and technician castes. While a khan could completely ignore trade in favour of just launching trials of possession for anything the clan needs (Food, medicine, mechs, ect.) the danger in doing so is that it puts strain on both the clan's Touman and their diplomatic ties. Furthermore, the merchant caste is able to direclty advise the khan on the resources of the other clans so that they can know who to challenge and for what.

[Stalkerr]

The only reason I like the clans is rooted in my exposure to the CBT rules book back in the mid-90s, which had a sketch of some Vultures walking around. I thought the overload of missiles looked pretty sick, and appreciated the different aesthetic (notably the reverse-joint legs) compared to the boring IS designs.

Other than their ridiculously OP mech and weapon designs, there's nothing I really like about the clans. They are literally Space Nazis, and there's nothing I can find to like about that (unless you're aNazi, of course, in which case I totally understand the attraction).

Edited by Stalkerr, 31 January 2013 - 10:00 AM.

[Wales Grey]

Ashla Mason, on 31 January 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Clan Society Primer

Yeah, that's how it's supposed to work. All too frequently, however, it just breaks down into doing what the Warrior Caste says or they break your skull, metaphorically (via demotion to a lower caste/re-assignment to a **** job) or literally (what happens to members of the labour caste when they disagree). I will give the Clans one thing, sexism and racism are more or less dead to them. This doesn't excuse their rampant abuse of their "inferiors". In fact, the warrior caste made the problems with racism/sexism worse, because they have two groups: Freebirths and Trueborns. If you're a freebirth, you're worth less than the air you breath, except for your genes. Which, of course, are only valuable if you are a Mary-Sue protagonist, and even then, you're only tolerated because they want to use you as a stud in their Kirswatz Herald or whatever.

The Clans are a Fascist state, albiet less so than the FedSuns or an outright feudalistic monarchy like the Draconis Combine, but being less horrible doesn't mean you're good.
This is a good read, too.

Edit: I just realized that every Clan fanboy I know is also a Anarcho-Captialist Libertarian.

Edited by Wales Grey, 31 January 2013 - 10:13 AM.

[Ashla Mason]

Can we please ditch the comparisons to Nazism? Yes, the clans have an eugenics program, but the difference with them is that it is based on cultivating useful traits (intelligence, reflexes, strength, endurance ect.) as opposed to a dictators fascination with scandinavians.

[fil5000]

Ashla Mason, on 31 January 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Can we please ditch the comparisons to Nazism? Yes, the clans have an eugenics program, but the difference with them is that it is based on cultivating useful traits (intelligence, reflexes, strength, endurance ect.) as opposed to a dictators fascination with scandinavians.

National Socialism is the most apt comparison though. A self appointed elite governing the chattering classes, focused on conquest (by the time of the Invasion) and warfare in general, technological development focused on weapons of war and yes, eugenics programs. Yes, ****** was obsessed with the teutonic ideal but his avowed purpose was the same as the clans: cultivating "superior" traits.

[Ken Fury]

Ashla Mason, on 31 January 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Can we please ditch the comparisons to Nazism? Yes, the clans have an eugenics program, but the difference with them is that it is based on cultivating useful traits (intelligence, reflexes, strength, endurance ect.) as opposed to a dictators fascination with scandinavians.

Well their programm failed since the best leader, mechwarriors, close-combat fighters, merchants and scientists all are Freebirths. The Clans are not the best.

[Wales Grey]

Ashla Mason, on 31 January 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Can we please ditch the comparisons to Nazism? Yes, the clans have an eugenics program, but the difference with them is that it is based on cultivating useful traits (intelligence, reflexes, strength, endurance ect.) as opposed to a dictators fascination with scandinavians.

Okay, I'll stop making direct comparisons to the membership and policies of the majority/ruling party in Germany during the 1930's and 40's.

The Clans are still a bunch of Fascists. Let's go down the Fascist checklist, shall we?

• A syncretistic state pseudo-religion/cult
  
  • The Clans revere Kerensky as a messianic figure and enshrined Nicolas Kerenksy's warrior ideal as their state cult.
• The rejection of modernism
  
  • The Clans outright reject the principals of the Star League and democracy
• The cult of action for action's sake
  
  • The only way a person proves their worth in Clan society is by action, and the Warrior caste frequently fights among itself with weapons for no reason.
    
  • More specifically, everything in a Clan exists to support the warrior caste and their fights.
• Disagreement is treason
  
  • See: Dark Caste. If you don't go along with their ideas, you are literally scum and hunted down.
• The OTHER is to be feared and hated
  
  • The Clans HATE the DISHONORABURRR Inner Sphere, or at best, barely tolerate it
• Individual or social frustration
  
  • The Exodus was prompted by the GLORIOUS LEADER and elements of the SLDF being frustrated with the world
• Obsession with a plot by the OTHER
  
  • The Inner Sphere is otherized to the point of outright hatred. The Clans plot to take back "what is rightfully theirs"
• The followers feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies
  
  • Clan non-warrior castes look at the "freedoms" of the Inner Sphere (imaginary or otherwise) and want to not put up with Warrior Douchenozzle constantly yelling at them
• Life is lived for struggle/Life is permanent warfare
  
  • I don't really need to point out why this applies to the Clans, I hope.
• Every citizen belongs to the best people of the world, the members of the party are the best among the citizens
  
  • Members of a Clan are better than those Inner Sphere Savages, and the best Clanners are the Warrior Caste
• A craving for a heroic death, advertised as the best reward for a heroic life
  
  • Again, I shouldn't need to explain this
• The idolatry of Machismo
  
  • The Clans loathe the perception of weakness, and seek to purge it wherever possible
• Individuals as individuals have no rights, and the People is conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the Common Will
  
  • The non-warrior castes are all a block of "non-warriors" and don't have individual rights
• Newspeak
  
  • AFF NEG SEYLA RISTAR BLOODNAME QUIAFF?

Well, I think the clans hit up every one of those points rather neatly, so I guess the Clans, while not literal Nazis, are most assuredly Fascists.

Edited by Wales Grey, 31 January 2013 - 11:08 AM.

[Ashla Mason]

Wales Grey, on 31 January 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

Yeah, that's how it's supposed to work. All too frequently, however, it just breaks down into doing what the Warrior Caste says or they break your skull, metaphorically (via demotion to a lower caste/re-assignment to a **** job) or literally (what happens to members of the labour caste when they disagree). I will give the Clans one thing, sexism and racism are more or less dead to them. This doesn't excuse their rampant abuse of their "inferiors". In fact, the warrior caste made the problems with racism/sexism worse, because they have two groups: Freebirths and Trueborns. If you're a freebirth, you're worth less than the air you breath, except for your genes. Which, of course, are only valuable if you are a Mary-Sue protagonist, and even then, you're only tolerated because they want to use you as a stud in their Kirswatz Herald or whatever.

The Clans are a Fascist state, albiet less so than the FedSuns or an outright feudalistic monarchy like the Draconis Combine, but being less horrible doesn't mean you're good.
This is a good read, too.

Edit: I just realized that every Clan fanboy I know is also a Anarcho-Captialist Libertarian.

A few things come to mind. Keep in mind that I'm discussing things in broad strokes unless I point to specific examples.

First of all, True born are regarded as being supperior because as warriors (and remember, there society is dedicated to efficient warfare), they are born with better gene stock then a free born, but they still have to prove for the first twenty years of their lives that they are worthy of being in the warrior caste, with failure relegating them to a more appropriate caste or (in extreme cases) death.

That having been said, Children of freeborn families are also tested for aptitude, and it is possible for them to change castes if they show an apptitude for it all the way up to warrior caste. Granted, they aren't regarded as being the equal to trueborns and are thus put into defensive roles as second line galaxies, but the fact remains that they do exist and they can be every bit as dangerous as their trueborn cousins.

Furthermore, the attitude towards freebirths isn't even that clear cut, since some clans treat them extremely well (Ghost bear, Diamond Shark, Coyote, Hells Horses, Blood spirit, Wolf in Exile all springing readily to mind) while others are famously terribad (Smoke Jaguar, Jade Falcon, Vlad's Wolves) and the rest probably falling somewhere in the middle.

Besides that, non-warrior castes usually don't act out to a degree that would cause them to get there skulls busted (litterally), since they generally don't have reason to **** warriors off that much.

Also: The clans are more socialist then anything else, given that they don't really use money and have structured there society so that everyone relies on everyone else.

[Ken Fury]

Ashla Mason, on 31 January 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

First of all, True born are regarded as being supperior because as warriors (and remember, there society is dedicated to efficient warfare), they are born with better gene stock then a free born, but they still have to prove for the first twenty years of their lives that they are worthy of being in the warrior caste,

Well their better gene stock still puts them at seconds best at most against the Mechwarriors of the Inner Sphere.

[Wales Grey]

Ashla Mason, on 31 January 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

A few things come to mind. Keep in mind that I'm discussing things in broad strokes unless I point to specific examples.

First of all, True born are regarded as being supperior because as warriors (and remember, there society is dedicated to efficient warfare), they are born with better gene stock then a free born, but they still have to prove for the first twenty years of their lives that they are worthy of being in the warrior caste, with failure relegating them to a more appropriate caste or (in extreme cases) death.

Okay, this justifies them ******** all over the lower castes, how? This refutes my assertion that the Clans are Fascist, how?

Quote

That having been said, Children of freeborn families are also tested for aptitude, and it is possible for them to change castes if they show an apptitude for it all the way up to warrior caste. Granted, they aren't regarded as being the equal to trueborns and are thus put into defensive roles as second line galaxies, but the fact remains that they do exist and they can be every bit as dangerous as their trueborn cousins.

Furthermore, the attitude towards freebirths isn't even that clear cut, since some clans treat them extremely well (Ghost bear, Diamond Shark, Coyote, Hells Horses, Blood spirit, Wolf in Exile all springing readily to mind) while others are famously terribad (Smoke Jaguar, Jade Falcon, Vlad's Wolves) and the rest probably falling somewhere in the middle.

There are some people who own slaves and they hardly mistreat them at all! If only we could all aspire to such moral fibre!

Quote

Besides that, non-warrior castes usually don't act out to a degree that would cause them to get there skulls busted (litterally), since they generally don't have reason to **** warriors off that much.

See above.

Quote

Also: The clans are more socialist then anything else, given that they don't really use money and have structured there society so that everyone relies on everyone else.

DO YOU EVEN ******* KNOW WHAT SOCIALISM IS?

FASCISM IS NOT AN ECONOMIC SYSTEM IT IS A WORLDVIEW

THE CLANS ARE STILL FASCIST

Edited by Wales Grey, 31 January 2013 - 11:38 AM.

[Wales Grey]

Tank Boy Ken, on 31 January 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

Well their better gene stock still puts them at seconds best at most against the Mechwarriors of the Inner Sphere.

The White Aryan Male Trueborn is Superior to the Blacks, Gypsies, Chinamen, and Hispanics Entirety of the Inner Sphere

Edited by Wales Grey, 31 January 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[qultar]

Tank Boy Ken, on 31 January 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

Well their better gene stock still puts them at seconds best at most against the Mechwarriors of the Inner Sphere.

this is my last post on this topic as the goons have taken it over fully
but i must point out that the cans were out numbered badly
and the ONLY thing that made clan mechwarriors better is they
start training at like 6 unless they are a freebirth

[Wales Grey]

qultar, on 31 January 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

this is my last post on this topic as the goons have taken it over fully
but i must point out that the cans were out numbered badly
and the ONLY thing that made clan mechwarriors better is they
start training at like 6 unless they are a freebirth

Counterpoint: The Clans could never have taken the Inner Sphere. Ever. This also doesn't at all excuse or justify the way the Clans **** over the working castes, or make them not a bunch of murderous Fascists.