165 replies to this topic

[Jukebox1986]

A Cataphract with the possibility to mount 3 Gauss-Rifles? And you can only buy it with MC?

I never cared about Gauss beeing OP. but i see a P2W-disscussion coming...

[Monky]

It is worth noting that the cooldown is no longer reset on the UAC5 when you fire the 2nd shot. Also, you need to factor in 3 medium lasers DPS as well.

[Monky]

It doesn't, just tested it today before posting to be sure.

I'm not out here waving my *** around on the forums about this just for giggles

[Sinnersaix]

hm maybe the first Mech that makes AC/10 usefull...

[Monky]

Thontor, on 28 November 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

yeah I just tested it too..

So, that would be 8 shots ever 4.4 seconds in ultra mode, assuming 3 second unjam time on one out of every 4 ultra shots that would make it 8 shots every 7.4 seconds on average, giving it a theoretical DPS of 5.4..

so 3 UAC/5 would barely beat 4 AC/2.. (16.2 vs 16.0)

I also just tested how long it would take me to unload 2 tons of ammo

interesting to note I just test fired 2 tons of ammo and timed how long it took to go through it, with jams and everything, firing as fast as I could and it took 52.6 seconds..

250 damage in 52.6 damage is about 4.75 dps.. barely beating out non-ultra mode..

i guess I got a little unlucky on jams

This is where having multiple UAC5's becomes weird, one is down but the other jams, letting you keep dumping that ammo. Even with 2 on my CTF-4X I rarely find both of them down.

[HammerMaster]

I am completely UNDERWHELMED by this announcement.

[Oxer]

Monky, on 28 November 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

It's clear you don't know anything about game balance. I'm saying that not to be rude, but because it needs to be said. You are hand waving legitimate problems away with 'oh people are too afraid of change'. I've played nearly a year of world of tanks, which made this same mistake, starting with innocent little tanks that where underpowered like the Yen Lo Wang, and ending up with ridiculous, game breaking tanks like the type 59 (they had to remove it from sale to reduce the numbers of it in game, because it literally became World of Type 59). given current game balance, with a 3xUAC5 and 3x Medium Laser combo, you will be able to out-DPS any other mech in the game, barring maybe an LRM boating atlas D-DC whos target just sits there and takes it. You can repel fast movers with your medium lasers, and absolutely destroy slower mechs, while having a reasonable amount of ammo and AMS, the build is on the first page if you don't believe it. And no, you can't build that with other chassis/mechs, 2 UAC5 is the current maximum on any other chassis including the 4X.

Of course, people with the hand waving attitude will simply brush right by this, saying 'maybe it'll be ok' or 'maybe there will be some unknown weakness to this' but there won't. What there will be, is a lot of players running around in a minmaxed build wrecking people with extremely high, heat managable DPS, probably in groups. This is exactly how the Type 59 situation turned out too - players would buy them, group up, and wolf pack around, usually getting 3/4ths of the kills in a match and making it unplayable for everyone else. I know, because I did that. I don't want MWO to become that, and I wish you guys would see the reality that's coming down on us all.

Are you REALLY one of the people that believe that the type 59 was OP... to put it bluntly, the standard tech tree T-44 was superior in every way except for a small amount of armour in favor of the 59. The only reason people thought it was OP was that it was infact one of the few money grinding tanks that was actually fun to play, which meant A LOT of very good players platooned and tore teams apart (but then again, you put a platoon of good players in any half decent tank and the same thing happens), which led to people thinking it was OP -> many, many people bought it and it flooded the game, and it was the popularity that got it pulled, not the power. I personally could tear the things apart with any teir 8 med and fight on a pretty much even playing field with a teir 7 (for those that don't know Type 59 was teir 8) and that was when it was being played by a fairly competent player. You could also easily tell if the player bought it purely because they thought it was OP and could pad their stats with it, I remember being swarmed by three of them and in my Teir 7 IS heavy tank and destroying 2 and severely damaging a third.

Wow, wall of text. Bottom line, if your argument is based on Type 59 being an example of P2W you lose all credibility in my eyes.

But back to the subject at hand, 3 UAC5s are going to be nice, but I really don't think it will be game breaking, especially with how hard it is to hit even moderate speed moving targets with ballistics, and don't forget, with one of them on a torso mount, it will take fair amount of coordination to keep all three on a moving target, it may be a better move to use the torso mount for a situational weapon like an lbx or ac20, but that's just my 2c.

[Monky]

Oxer, on 28 November 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

Are you REALLY one of the people that believe that the type 59 was OP... to put it bluntly, the standard tech tree T-44 was superior in every way except for a small amount of armour in favor of the 59. The only reason people thought it was OP was that it was infact one of the few money grinding tanks that was actually fun to play, which meant A LOT of very good players platooned and tore teams apart (but then again, you put a platoon of good players in any half decent tank and the same thing happens), which led to people thinking it was OP -> many, many people bought it and it flooded the game, and it was the popularity that got it pulled, not the power. I personally could tear the things apart with any teir 8 med and fight on a pretty much even playing field with a teir 7 (for those that don't know Type 59 was teir 8) and that was when it was being played by a fairly competent player. You could also easily tell if the player bought it purely because they thought it was OP and could pad their stats with it, I remember being swarmed by three of them and in my Teir 7 IS heavy tank and destroying 2 and severely damaging a third.

Wow, wall of text. Bottom line, if your argument is based on Type 59 being an example of P2W you lose all credibility in my eyes.

But back to the subject at hand, 3 UAC5s are going to be nice, but I really don't think it will be game breaking, especially with how hard it is to hit even moderate speed moving targets with ballistics, and don't forget, with one of them on a torso mount, it will take fair amount of coordination to keep all three on a moving target, it may be a better move to use the torso mount for a situational weapon like an lbx or ac20, but that's just my 2c.

orbmonky is my profile in WOT, 60% win ratio, most games played = type 59. Even as someone who played casually, it was very clear it was a superior tank. Are there better tanks? Sure, but they are all higher tier. Even the T-44 wasn't too rough to handle when you went hull down.

Additionally, and everyone seems to be missing this, you have 3 medium lasers backing up your UAC5's. The quad AC2 build can at best, when gimping itself on heat and ammo or armor, fit 2. That's an additional 3.75 DPS for as long as you can handle the heat, and is effective enough to repel or destroy lights that the UAC5's would have a hard(er) time with.

addittionally, I'd like to focus on this piece of broken logic as I see it pop up all the time;

Quote

The only reason people thought it was OP was that it was infact one of the few money grinding tanks that was actually fun to play, which meant A LOT of very good players platooned and tore teams apart

Why exactly was it fun to play? Well, it was fast and responsive. But other tanks where too, so that can't be it. So it must have packed a good, reliable punch. But other tanks did too, so that can't be it, it must be because it was respectably armored, but that can't be it, because other things did too..... oh wait, I think I see it, it's because it had all of those factors, where few if any other tanks did. That is what is going on here with this hero mech, and it is why you will see these things in gangs pubstomping and wrecking other teams, and causing the game to be bland and un-fun.

Edited by Monky, 28 November 2012 - 05:20 PM.

[Warge]

BlackyCat, on 28 November 2012 - 02:58 AM, said:

What is your point of joke non-founder? I will purchase it.

You didn't get the point of my question. Chill, bro...

Edited by Warge, 28 November 2012 - 05:33 PM.

[Pr8Dator]

I've no problems with OP mechs as long as I am piloting one hahahaa... and you bet I will ;-) In fact, I've already thought of three configurations I wanna try with the Muromets... triple Gauss, triple UAC, triple LBX... YEAH BABY! hahahha (this might be my fav before my REAL fav triple PPC mech the Nova Cat is released... one day)

My advise for people who thinks stuffs are OP, go use it! Two things will happen; 1, you realise its not as OP as you thought and that people are winning because they are really good players. 2, it IS OP and you have a blast of a time. Both conclusions are good. (this is same thing we always tell players in BF3... think M16 or AEK is OP? Go use it and find out for yourself instead of getting killed by it and whining. )

Edited by Pr8Dator, 28 November 2012 - 05:29 PM.

[Monky]

Thontor, on 28 November 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

yes, but on average they will all jam 1 out of 4 ultra shots.. Meaning on average you will do 5.4 dps per UAC/5

You might get lucky over shorter periods and jam less and do more dps, and sometimes it will jam more and you will do less...

I did a test unloading 1 ton as fast as I could, firing ultra shots every chance I could in two different matches. The first one took 34.3 seconds... I think it jammed about 6-7 times... Even worse than if I had not fired any ultra shots and fired it on cooldown instead.

The second one took 18.3 seconds which is on the lucky side... Only jammed a couple times.

Let's take the best case scenario (jams never for 1 ton of ammo per gun) which means 10 damage every 1.1 seconds (current fire rate) for 9 DPS from each UAC5, making a total of 27 + 3.75 for the model (30.75 DPS, meaning an atlas will crumple in 5 seconds of front CT focusing) and then the worst case scenario, every cannon jams on every double shot (0.5 seconds to fire 2 shots, 5 seconds to unjam) making 1.8 DPS, so slightly better than 7 medium lasers at 9.15 including the 3 equipped medium lasers. Then average the two. On average, you're dealing 19.95 DPS in a sustained fire environment, with manageable heat and good armor. You can mount an AMS for defense or neglect it for a faster engine/more ammo, and I haven't even covered XL engines. This is comparable to only one current mech; the SRM6 Cat, which can't focus its damage on any one location of a mech short of 50 meters, and has significant heat problems and total ammunition dependence or the D-DC Atlas which suffers the same problems, but has a minimum of 180 meters range. Is it 'game breakingly powerful'? No. I've said the sky isn't falling yet. It is, however, a significant flaw, like the Type 59 was/is for World of Tanks. It is imbalanced, and I'm sure it can and will be killed/beaten by skilled pilots, but for PUGS, we will see this mech, and almost always this mech, dominating the fight.

Either way, I've said everything that can be said, and it isn't going to get through to anyone who isn't willing to listen, so I'll leave it here.

Edited by Monky, 28 November 2012 - 07:24 PM.

[Tarriss Halcyon]

It used to be that I would automatically target YLW on sight, the second highest lock-priority (behind Raven). Now...well, this thing is going to be EVERYONE's target, mostly due to the three UACs. Let's face it, the only weapon that could give it a greater DPS score won't be introduced for twenty years - the RAC.

My counter? Distract, and pummel. A skilled light pilot can run rings around it, while heavier mechs pound it from range. If he doesn't pay attention to the light (which would have to be a Jenner/Spider, Commando and Raven are nowhere near fast enough), it pounds him.

And three extra medium lasers? Hmm...well, each medium laser is a tonne that could be used for more ammo. either for the UACs or the AMS. Considering that this thing is going to be a target, I'd think it'll be more likely to see it with extra AMS ammo, and one or two lasers missing.

[Capp]

That's probably the only reason, but at least it's a reason.

(Episode 617, if anyone wants to see the movie.)

[Oxer]

Monky, on 28 November 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

orbmonky is my profile in WOT, 60% win ratio, most games played = type 59. Even as someone who played casually, it was very clear it was a superior tank. Are there better tanks? Sure, but they are all higher tier. Even the T-44 wasn't too rough to handle when you went hull down.

Why exactly was it fun to play? Well, it was fast and responsive. But other tanks where too, so that can't be it. So it must have packed a good, reliable punch. But other tanks did too, so that can't be it, it must be because it was respectably armored, but that can't be it, because other things did too..... oh wait, I think I see it, it's because it had all of those factors, where few if any other tanks did. That is what is going on here with this hero mech, and it is why you will see these things in gangs pubstomping and wrecking other teams, and causing the game to be bland and un-fun.

in the interest of full disclosure, my WoT profile is charfreak. I too played mostly solo and on a mostly casual basis, and from comparing stats (also, other than your t8 premmies, we also seem to favour similar tanks, cheers to a fellow luchs driver) (I haven't actually played the game for more than a few games straight since I bought my mwo founders pack :S) we seem to be on a fairly similar level here. But I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, the fact is, a pershing is simply a better tank all round, more accuracy, higher alpha, better dps, better gun depression, more maneuverability, the only place the 59 is better is its straight line top speed, which is pretty much pointless in a combat situation where you have to turn.

I think you might have also misunderstood me, I was only comparing it to other t8 premium tanks when I was talking about how it was fun to use, a category in which (at the time, I think the super pershing is in there now as well) included only two tanks, both of which were slow, under armoured and with very good guns, they could be effective, but not exactly 'fun' if you liked to actually have options in combat strategy. I can say this with absolute certainty, I personally would take ANY of the tech tree t8 meds over the type 59. (and before you point out that I don't own a type 59, I played it extensively on the test server when it was first released, and every time they made a significant change to it because I was considering purchasing it as I am a fan of the t-54 in its historical form (what the type 59 is, effectively), and not the frankentank WG made the tech tree version, and found it sluggish and unresponsive when compared to the pershing I was grinding at the time, and in terms of pure fun simply could not match my chafee, m-46 and t-32 that I still have in my garage). Bottom line, there is still no way the Type 59 was pay to win, it was merely a solid t8 that you didn't have to grind for, as opposed to the sub-par tanks that all the early (and some more recent) premiums were.

But if we can get back to real subject, I will re-state my previous point, which no-one else seems to have made, the 3rd uac5 that this mech can mount but a 4X can't, will be in a torso mount, which uses the separate aiming point, so unless it's shooting at a very slow or stationary target, it will require a fair amount of patience / skill to keep on the same point, especially in a firefight.

[Duke Hector]

looking to see just WHO ilya muromets was, i found this cartoon (since he seems to be VERY popular in cartoon format) and even though i don't understand a WORD of russian this looks SERIOUSLY awesome

[Urza Mechwalker]

Monky, on 28 November 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

Let's take the best case scenario (jams never for 1 ton of ammo per gun) which means 10 damage every 1.1 seconds (current fire rate) for 9 DPS from each UAC5, making a total of 27 + 3.75 for the model (30.75 DPS, meaning an atlas will crumple in 5 seconds of front CT focusing) and then the worst case scenario, every cannon jams on every double shot (0.5 seconds to fire 2 shots, 5 seconds to unjam) making 1.8 DPS, so slightly better than 7 medium lasers at 9.15 including the 3 equipped medium lasers. Then average the two. On average, you're dealing 19.95 DPS in a sustained fire environment, with manageable heat and good armor. You can mount an AMS for defense or neglect it for a faster engine/more ammo, and I haven't even covered XL engines. This is comparable to only one current mech; the SRM6 Cat, which can't focus its damage on any one location of a mech short of 50 meters, and has significant heat problems and total ammunition dependence or the D-DC Atlas which suffers the same problems, but has a minimum of 180 meters range. Is it 'game breakingly powerful'? No. I've said the sky isn't falling yet. It is, however, a significant flaw, like the Type 59 was/is for World of Tanks. It is imbalanced, and I'm sure it can and will be killed/beaten by skilled pilots, but for PUGS, we will see this mech, and almost always this mech, dominating the fight.

Either way, I've said everything that can be said, and it isn't going to get through to anyone who isn't willing to listen, so I'll leave it here.

You are really trying to compare SRM 6 to UAC5? Take into account the WEIGHT both take. 4 UAC/5 is a LOT of mass it NEEDS to be a lot of damage!!

A Atlas R with 4 PPCs and SRM missiles will obliterate that much overpoweered fit of your in 2 salvoes!

[TanE]

Cool story bro': comparing apples and oranges!


U don't forget, that a player in WoT buying a high tier premium tank (in this case t59), significantly increases his gaming environment!

Example (WoT): A new player starting with tier 1 low-bob tank gains about 5k creds per match, if he wins high enough. He have to skill it to open the next tier, paying much creds for the next tier and so on. Until Tier 8 you need much time and endurance to get a such a tank. If he buys a t59 after some matches, he get a MUCH more enjoyable tank with a big gun, fast moving and small silhouette. Tanks with lower tier have plently of problems to penetrate the turret or your front. And when they penetrate it, the do only some percent of damage. In the meantime you blasted them to hell (even with AUTO-aiming!),. Much more fun for a new player, eh? Some time there is a drawback, when an experienced player with a normal tier 8 tank gets you, but hey, you earn about 10k-30k in creds, don't need to skill something and your crew could be trained to 100% to give a mean advantage. Really pay to win (forgetting gold ammunition, for a real edge!)
An experienced Player can buy it, directly gets convertable XP, earn more wins and gains much more ingame money than with a normal tank.

Example: (MWO): A new player starting with trial mechs, earning some money. Buying a hero mech - Ilya for example. What does he have? A Mech, that have to be customized to get better - with CBills. Does the new player know, what he have to buy to get it better AND hard hitting? Plus he still have to skill the mech and have to refine his skills to hit something! A fast mech circling you? Wtf? He can't hit something AND get laid by the other one, because the weapons do FULL damage!
An experienced player may buy Ilya and get some advantages. He earns some more money, have to pay some (relative fast earned) C-Bills for customization. But he still have to skill it and what does he get more? An additional ballistic slot for a single ammunition addicted weapon, that doesn't shot at the same place, where the seperatly aimed guns in the arms point at. Let's get serious: Who walks directly into a tripple UAC5?
And: Shooting at higher or deeper elevated mechs in infight can't be hit with it.
Additionally you have to load about 8-10 to's of ammuntion, if you want slash out a steady rate of fire. If someone opens your chest (I'm not sure,... but I can hear a whispering choir of upset people, that the CTF is to bulky and could be hit easy...), they will hit something important very fast. And I don't began to explain the effect of Streakcats or 4AC2 4X on your abillity to aim 'till now...

Is it compareable? I don't think so.

[AlexWildeagle]

OK, so I went in to see what crybaby was going on about 3 UAC5s. First I went to the spreadhseet available and built the hero mech with 3 UAC5s. Stripped it down, with the stock engine (55KPH), endosteel and 432/434 armor and 3UAC5s you were at 60 tons already. I thought, hmm 10 tons to play with, well -4 tons for ammo, put in 3 MLS for backup thats 67 tons. More or less doable.
So then I wanted to see what the big deal was on the UAC5s, so I broke out my 4X. Almost able to fit 3 UAC5s on that bad boy but had to settle for 2, a few MLS for backup and then wasted space on 2 MGs and a few DHS. Went into battle and just started cutting loose with the UAC5s. Spent a few rounds getting use to the new loadout and then got down to some serious hunting. After 10-12 rounds I started watching my score just to compare.
In general my scores were A LOT higher with my 1X with the gaus rifle and 5 MLS, WAY higher. And figuring in another UAC5 I don't see what your going on about. My 1X design is faster and carries as much armor as the hero mech.
Now I was playing around some with 1Ms hardpoints and I'm having a hard time finding a sweet spot on it. Especially once they make the gauss rifle brittle.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I still think that making the Caesar a Hero variant of the Cataphract (or if you really want, make it GeoAvanti's Caesar) would have been a better call.

[rolly]

Quote

Canonicity
Grigori Kovalenko and his "Ilya Muromets" was created specifically for MechWarrior Online, the developers citing the lack of historical characters or 'Mech variants with suitably different weapon ie hardpoint layout in the pre-Clan Invasion era for use as a Cataphract Hero 'Mech (CataphractGeorge being easily replicatable with the CTF-2X variant)

Great. Not there isn't ANY other dozens of known heroes in the Battletech/Mechwarrior Universe. Now we have made up heroes just to profit from gaming demographic. Not that introducing a new mech aside would be a bad thing or garner more sales than just a reskin of an existing mech.

Great creative/marketing brainstorming for PGI, but personally its disappointing that they have to make up fluff just to fit a new mech introducion.

PGI - You have tons of fans willing to help fuel your creative license and remain tied to canon. Those canon fan boys have spent a lot of money over the last 15 years and will likely be a great source of capital if you simply worked more with canon. Yet you create something out of thin air. Truly disappointing from a Battletech/Mechwarrior fan standpoint and I am sure I'm not alone, this is a clear sales pitch to the WoT russian player base. But then again I'm just stating the obvious so...

Perhaps we can have Mechwarrior Psy in his "Oppa Gangnam" Atlas IIC next just to tackle the North/South Korea K-pop demographic? I mean WoT is releasing the Chinese line next so it will definitely top their release!

Hold on to your 2nd edition classic Battletech fans, MWO is going Michael Bay with its creative license.

Edited by rolly, 30 November 2012 - 04:25 PM.