196 replies to this topic

[Mason Grimm]

DV^McKenna, on 08 May 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

But they both discuss different topics about the LRM, that will now get entangled and ultimately more confusing

This well separate those who can pilot a mech from those who should be watching mechs. Process data

EDIT: See? Angelicon gets he. He talked about BOTH aspects

Edited by Mason Grimm, 08 May 2012 - 08:32 AM.

[AlanEsh]

Dr.Killinger, on 08 May 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

Personally, I can't be happier that they're sticking to TT ranges. Nothing irritates me more than a camper. Support mechs will now need to move and rely both on scouts and close support to bring their massive arsenal to bear.

Hopefully because of his, LRMs will pack a punch in this game, unlike other Mechwarrior games. And, people won't just sit in one spot firing LRMs like an *****. There is neither skill nor fun in that.

Kill the spotting mech, no more indirect fire on your head.

I don't see a down side to longer LRM ranges -- reload time might need to be tweaked upward though.

[DaZur]

Nighthound, on 08 May 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

This would just be ridiculous, this makes no sense at all, I can't even begin to understand how this would be a good idea.

Here is why:

4 LRM5 Launchers - 4x2 Tons ; 4x1 Crit ; 4x2 Heat for a Total of 8 Tons, 4 Crit and 8 Heat
2 LRM10 Launcher - 2x5 Tons ; 2x2 Crit ; 2x4 Heat for a Total of 10 Tons, 4 Crit and 8 Heat
1 LRM20 Launcher - .................................................................... 10 Tons, 5 Crit and 6 Heat

as you can see those are all pretty much in the same vicinity of each other, BUT with your cycle times the Damage output of those LRM5 would be 4 times as much as those LRM20 and even the LRM10 has double the output of the LRM20 which would make it utterly useless.
Same would hold true for "your" SRMs even though not by that much because you "nerfed" the smaler ones.

Sorry but this Idea is just insane.

Discussion is nice, but keep in mind that we have a lot of Beta-testing ahead of us before we should make such outrageous claims.

Fair assessment even if your postulation is a little harsh.

My expectations of a automated missile loading mechanism to cycle, feed and load a missile in 1 second aside... "Something" along the lines of this thinking would not necessarily be unreasonable or illogical.

[MaddMaxx]

Mason Grimm, on 08 May 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

This well separate those who can pilot a mech thread from those who should just be watching mechs said threads. Process data

Fixed that for you.

[Lightfoot]

From looking at the gameplay video I am going to say the LRM range is around 1000 meters. The final range vs damage will be based on gameplay dynamics. If every little thing in MWO comes from a table top rule book the game won't work or be very shallow gameplay compared to other PC games. Final damage vs ranges has to come from a dynamic game balance.

That is why the MechWarrior games all have a little variation. Like in MW3 the LRMs were, I think 150-800 meters, but devastating damage and knockdown if you couldn't dodge them. MW4 LRMs were moderate damage 0-1000 meters, you can't dodge them in the open.

So we will see what happens in MWO, but the LRMs in the vid looked like around 1000 meter range.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Lightfoot, on 08 May 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

MW4 LRMs were moderate damage 0-1000 meters, you can't dodge them in the open.

So we will see what happens in MWO, but the LRMs in the vid looked like around 1000 meter range.

Lies!

MW4 LRM's were easy to dodge, stupidly easy.

And Which MWO video were you watching where you saw 1000m LRM's?

[Planerunner]

MW4 (especially) showed why 'realistic' long range does not necessarily make fun gameplay. I couldn't EVER pilot a Hellspawn or Uziel unless I had a deathwish (let alone a Raven or Osiris). It was all boating, all the time. That's fine for a while . . . but not all the freakin' time. It appears MWO's devs have concentrated on what 'feels' right (for range).

I agree. This is about what is cool, and what is fun. It is NOT about what appears 'accurate' to satisfy a checkbox in someone's mind. That is another 'game' entirely. In other words, don't worry about the range. Just blow stuff up.

Edited by Planerunner, 08 May 2012 - 08:53 AM.

[Nawiedzony]

Well TT ranges looks just wrong for multiplayer game. Tactic from board game not will work same way in the multiplayer game, everyone who play in NBT drops know that. In MW4 we have bigger ranges of weps and we still use scouts, becouse on big map you need find enemy, bring him to position where you get adventage over him. We call crit mechs, we shot crit locations, thats MW4 and it is enough good to use same thing here. For me looks like it will turn in arena play, no matter if i get few trees, hills or something other on it. You guys say tactic, lance cover etc, on distance 500 m? It not take to much time to charge from cover one mech and destroy it on so short distance ...

Pls consider to change weapons range, TT looks just silly ....
Mechwarrior but not BT fan.

Edited by Nawiedzony, 08 May 2012 - 09:02 AM.

[Kanatta Jing]

640m doesn't look that far away does it?

But it's far enough to have a hill between you and that's awesome.

The real question is if you can effectively be invisible until they trace your missile barrage or if they can start getting a lock from the other side of the rock.

And yes, right now I am thinking about taking 2 Catapults, a Centurion and a scout into combat to see if we can pop Atlases with double volleys of 70 LRMs...

And if we can't... I'll probably have to whine about the brutality of the LRM nerf. Seriously that would be 1/4 of the ammo for the 'Pults.

[AC]

Garth Erlam, on 08 May 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

We will get right on using TT rules, and also not using TT rules simultaneously

I was wondering when you all would figure out how to do this!

[Jericho917]

If 640m isn’t enough then switch to the ultra ac2 the min range is only 90 and the max is 750... At least in the BG... Or better yet if you really wana kill without them knowing what happened get a thumper or long tom (both are likely not in the game.) thumper had a range of 5 maps! 17 hexes per map... 30 meters per hex... 2550 meters that will show that dump Catapult!

[Lightfoot]

DV^McKenna, on 08 May 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

Lies!

MW4 LRM's were easy to dodge, stupidly easy.

And Which MWO video were you watching where you saw 1000m LRM's?

How do you dodge MW4 LRMs? In a light mech, sometimes, other than that you could turn so they hit an arm or something. Of course maybe you mean vs a pilot who didn't know how to aim LRMs. Yes that's true if a novice were just letting them fly on tone-lock they would be erratic. I never missed with locked LRMs in MW4 unless it was a zig-zagging light mech. Seriously. Typically I would only hit the CT with aimed LRMs. Every other mech section undamaged.

The distances are portrayed differently in MWO. What looked to be about 900 (MW4) meters was only 450 in MWO. This is a good thing.

Edited by Lightfoot, 08 May 2012 - 11:17 AM.

[Hyperius]

neodym, on 08 May 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

wait,LRM minimum range? no weapon should have minimum range,I didnt had minimum range in MW2,MW3 or MW4.... theres no logic in blocking LRM from firing just becose target is 199m away..... I honestly think you should fire any weapon any time,even LRM without lock on.... like theres no racional logic like "you know,the antimatter in the warheads suck ongoing tachyions into polaron singularity so you cant fire it under 200m"

Well one possible reason for that is because of an LRM flight pattern they may not hit a mech within 200m properly resulting in only a fraction of them actually detonating warheads. Missiles are complicated. They require specific vectors to be effective and that means knowing what ranges they will be used for.

[Catamount]

So does this mean we can just call LRMs "Ms" now?

[RIFT]

Remeber this is set up as a game, many RL accounts can not be made. The 2.15" rockets (dumbfire) used in many of todays militaries, has a range of 8000 meters....the Hellfire missel (my belief of the LRM) has a range of 5 miles!

But that just cant be done in a video game...yet!

[UncleKulikov]

You are forgetting that LRMs have indirect fire as well. Combine that with spotting ability, and you can get free damage on enemy mechs with low risk of return fire. If you increased the range too far, there would be no risk.

[A6PackofToucans]

I'm not concerned about the missiles, I'm concerned that the longest ranged weapon has a possible effective range of only 640 meters, possibly.

We got mechs that are going to be moving at 50kph and higher, and if an LRM can only effectively target out to 640 meters, then even my supposedly long range Gauss and PPC are going be shorter ranged than that, not even to consider what range an AC10 or Medium laser might have. Why would I need high magnification systems or a lead targeting computer on my mech when I can't even reach out and touch the enemy at 1000m? And if the effective ranges are 640m close, the enemy will already be literally in my face. There's no point in dedicating heavy equipment space for a C3 computer and being a command mech, your literally in the thick of things at the 600m range. Far to close for comfort for a command mech.

What I'm concerned about is if there is a very limited effective range of the weapons, all fights online are going to devolve into knife fights in a phone booth. People like to play that way, and that's fine, but I like to mix it up with some long range weapons that can strike out at 800m with some punch, like a Gauss, or ERPPC, not an AC2.

There's no time for real tactics, no time to hide behind a hill and communicate with a lancemate to do bounding overwatch over uneven terrain to get the jump on a PPC/Gauss mech with his LRM lancemate that is firing at you at over 800m+ like in the other MW games. I'm concerned about tactics being very limited, and perhaps too constricted in a small battle area.

I consider 640m medium range from all my experiences in MW2,3,4. And when you factor in the speeds and determination of the enemy mechwarrior to close the range with some of the available mechs, that 640m range is going to close FAST!! Factor in your Assaults aren't going to turn as fast as the lights and mediums and I can see how this isn't going to be my style of gameplay.

I do hope I am wrong. But I'm not liking what I'm seeing in the videos and hearing here when it comes to weapons ranges.

Edited by A6PackofToucans, 08 May 2012 - 12:59 PM.

[Mchawkeye]

Two posts in one day...That's a recent record for me.

I remember saying many months ago (back when this forum was young and I made a name for my self on the medium circuit) that I would have liked the weapon ranges increased, especially in regards to support mechs; LRMs.

640m. Pretty sure I can spit that far, but in the video the Cat did seem to be able to say out of the main fight and provide support, which is arguably the fundamental point. the maps are much more complex than the old flat-heres-a-random-small-hill-type-bump which makes lines of sight much harder to acquire and maintain. which again makes the indirect nature of the LRM accessible and desirable, despite the fairly short range.

To summarise, I do want longer ranges on support weapons, but I am in no way dissuaded by the implementation shown so far; the support weapons do just that, which is surely the point. Keep it up, PGI.

[Kaemon]

A6 and some others,

I don't think a meter in MW2-4 should be considered the same as a meter in MW:O, first of all the terrain variance needs to be taken into effect (we're not fighting over vast expanses of flat nothingness), so that requires distance (vertically) to travel.

Take into account travel time of mechs (which again, may not be the same) and it's a totally different game.

I agree with the particle effect of the missiles though, not a fan of them all hitting at once (as some slow down to wait for the stragglers to catch up it appears).

I'd rather see them be slightly off in timing (and maybe they are, we never saw them actually land on target) and cascade over the target (and around it) than all hitting every time (which is silly).

Plus you can get some decent collateral damage on close in mechs as well.


Plus more Hula errr...smoke trails! (sorry, old habits die hard).

[UncleKulikov]

Could someone explain how we know for sure that 640m is the maximum range for the LRMs? And if it's an issue when the game is released, purchase mechs with LRMs to generate data for the devs.