249 replies to this topic

[Krivvan]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 28 November 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

Never met you but I'm willing to bet that His win % is much better than yours.

Is your next comment going to be that stats don't matter or that you only pug in trial mechs?

I had a 100:1 W/L ratio and a KDR of 66. Yes, stats don't matter without knowledge of how someone plays.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 28 November 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

The team that puts the most damage on targets the fastest wins.

Right the team that masses fire the most wins.

Quote

[color=#959595]And LRMs are incapable of component focused damage. You'll have high numbers, but you won't have many kills unless your opponents are, to put it rudely, brain-dead.[/color]

OR they are being hammered by Brawlers. I have wracked up to 4 kills per game in a Missile boat. not often but I have done it. Kills are not the only Metric for defining how good a system is. Fire Support may or may not get the most Kills but they can definitely contribute to the kill in a large way.

[T a z z]

Bobzilla, on 28 November 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

So your saying that being really good at using something makes it more effective? Noone is arguing that.
They are arguing whats easier to use.

So you don't think having lasers, or gauss or ac having a lock on option would make them easier to use? Of course it would as locking on is easier to use!

I have no problem with missles as is (other than a streak boat, as i can't seem to break a lock or out damage them), but they are easier to use.

No, I'm pointing out the inherent flaws in the OP's argument they are so easy to use anyone can stand back and LRM boat the match effectivily regardless of skill level resulting in a cheap weapon requiring a nerf. What's more ease of use does not equate to effectiveness. True LRM's are easier to use then a gauss or large laser, but I'd hardly call them more effective at ~600m-1km. Infact, I'd say the Gauss, PPC, ER PPC, and Large Laser are all more effective at damaging and killing at ~600m-1km due to the lack of counters avaliable. The LRM wins as an effective pinning / coverfire weapon at this range, but lacks effective killing power, but this is far from an OP weapon describe by the thread / poll.

Edited by T a z z, 28 November 2012 - 10:26 AM.

[Krivvan]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 November 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

OR they are being hammered by Brawlers. I have wracked up to 4 kills per game in a Missile boat. not often but I have done it. Kills are not the only Metric for defining how good a system is. Fire Support may or may not get the most Kills but they can definitely contribute to the kill in a large way.

I agree, I wasn't trying to say missile boats were useless. Rather, I was saying that they are mainly a fire support role and have huge glaring weaknesses. Kills aren't a good metric for how good something is, but over a large sample size they become a good metric for how much "direct" damage you contribute since a sniper or brawler is more likely to get a kill shot than a missile boat.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

HlynkaCG, on 28 November 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

I don't think you've played on or against a really good team then.

You've got your veterans patch so I know you were around to see the orginal NGNG and Run Hot tournements.

A team of mediocre (unskilled in your eyes) pilots that work together will wipe the floor with any group that doesn't. The situation was so bad (good in my eyes) that teamplay had to nerfed by restricting the ability of clans to drop together. (4 man groups)

Grab your best 4 and I'll grab any of my 4 and we can do some timed drops together until we fight. I'm on EU server in the R-Sauce channel.

[Gaan Cathal]

Why are some people still oblivious to the fact that aimed weapons are at an advantage over lock-on weapons because they can aim. If current state LRM/SRM are doing overwhelmingly better than you are with lasers then you need to stop waving the beam all over the enemy mech like it's a paintbrush. LRMs cannot concentrate their damage on a component, lasers can. You just need, you know, a basic level of skill to do so. Shocker.

N.B. Not a missile pilot, sorry.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

Krivvan, on 28 November 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

I had a 100:1 W/L ratio and a KDR of 66. Yes, stats don't matter without knowledge of how someone plays.

Had? Was that with 8 man groups and then your stats dropped when your team couldn't carry you anymore?

Edited by Mongoose Trueborn, 28 November 2012 - 10:29 AM.

[T a z z]

Endbr1nger, on 28 November 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

I have been playing this game for the past 3-4 months and this is actually the first time I have ever felt the need to post.

Before you dismiss me as some missile boating newb, here are my qualifications (http://www.gotfrag.c...rtal/user/1609/). I may be an old gamer, but I would guess I have more competitive FPS experience than the OP. I drive a guass Dragon, and I have no problem leading targets with my guass rifle or the ER large I have in my right arm.


Who are you people who are getting dominated by LRMs? Aside from the couple of days where artemis totally broke LRM boats, I have never had a problem dealing with missiles . I do not understand where this undercurrent of whining comes from? Maybe its because I drive a dragon, and so can flank all the missile boats using cover? I don't understand how you could possibly think LRM's are overpowered.

The OP is completely wrong about how to balance this type of game. The entire premise of your post is that a game should be balanced around skill. With the hardest to use weapon's doing the most damage. This is not a game balanced around individual skill, but around rolls (In addition your argument is horribly flawed, by your logic a machine gun should do the most damage in the game, as it requires the most skill to use since it sucks). If you are looking for the next great e-sport, this is not it, find a new game to jump to.

LRM's are just fine, and so are streaks. I have never feared a streak Cat on the battlefield, once I see a streak loadout I simply back up from the Cat and fire from out of range. If I am stuck close I simply hit the catapult in the head. It is stupid easy to headshot Cat's, so I have never felt that any of the Cat builds were OP.

Bravo, wish I could have said it that well!

[IamSeanConnery]

Endbr1nger, on 28 November 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

I have been playing this game for the past 3-4 months and this is actually the first time I have ever felt the need to post.

Before you dismiss me as some missile boating newb, here are my qualifications (http://www.gotfrag.c...rtal/user/1609/). I may be an old gamer, but I would guess I have more competitive FPS experience than the OP. I drive a guass Dragon, and I have no problem leading targets with my guass rifle or the ER large I have in my right arm.


Who are you people who are getting dominated by LRMs? Aside from the couple of days where artemis totally broke LRM boats, I have never had a problem dealing with missiles . I do not understand where this undercurrent of whining comes from? Maybe its because I drive a dragon, and so can flank all the missile boats using cover? I don't understand how you could possibly think LRM's are overpowered.

The OP is completely wrong about how to balance this type of game. The entire premise of your post is that a game should be balanced around skill. With the hardest to use weapon's doing the most damage. This is not a game balanced around individual skill, but around rolls (In addition your argument is horribly flawed, by your logic a machine gun should do the most damage in the game, as it requires the most skill to use since it sucks). If you are looking for the next great e-sport, this is not it, find a new game to jump to.

LRM's are just fine, and so are streaks. I have never feared a streak Cat on the battlefield, once I see a streak loadout I simply back up from the Cat and fire from out of range. If I am stuck close I simply hit the catapult in the head. It is stupid easy to headshot Cat's, so I have never felt that any of the Cat builds were OP.

LRMs and Streaks are close to being fine- waiting on ECM. That being said:

I disagree with your analogy regarding the machine gun. It is flawed logic and does not support your point. The machine gun is actually a very efficient weapon already. The problem is that it just doesn't do enough damage to be as useful. However, that's because it's very light but generates no heat. Although a small buff would be appreciated, it is in a different class altogether than 3xLRM15 with Artemis. Exaggeration does not support your point.

Weapons must be balanced to make sure in general skilled weapons have higher damage potential. This makes players play the game and get better over time. However, I do agree with you that there is a limit. LRMs must be powerful enough regardless in order to keep a nice tactical dynamic to the game.

What the OP is really getting at is simply avoiding a game where the tactics are dumbed down to everyone spending 90% of the time hiding and not seeing another mech directly because any noob player with 1 day of training can come along onto the battlefield and lock it down with drown-out-the-sun missile fire which is not fun. If I wanted to play a turret defense game I would go elsewhere. What is the point of leaderboards if everyone is the same skill level? Welcome to LRM warrior online.
Edit:typo.

Edited by Platinum Booger, 28 November 2012 - 10:38 AM.

[Enigmos]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 November 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

Right the team that masses fire the most wins.

OR they are being hammered by Brawlers. I have wracked up to 4 kills per game in a Missile boat. not often but I have done it. Kills are not the only Metric for defining how good a system is. Fire Support may or may not get the most Kills but they can definitely contribute to the kill in a large way.

If two comparable Atlas' are dueling but one of them is also targetted for incoming LRMs you know who will win the duel.

[Krivvan]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 28 November 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

Had? Was that with 8 man groups and then your stats dropped when your team couldn't carry you anymore?

It was during the first days of an old closed beta patch. Having a team carry me is exactly my point about stats not being useful.

After I exclusively started lone-wolf pugging my stats in Open beta are at a much more realistic 289/93 W/L and 5 to 7 KDR.

Edited by Krivvan, 28 November 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[Kell Commander]

I has started reading some of the responses here but got tired and stopped. I going to post my opinion even though it's as useful as replying to someone's political post on facebook.

Captain Midnight, you need to understand that this is a WAR simulator. The whole idea is to have the best possible edge against you opponent through every means necessary. These "no skill" weapons require an intelligent person to actually be effective. Also, the use of good tactics can defeat any of these systems. Fighting LRM boats? Keep them distracted and force them to shoot their missiles into rocks until you teammates can get within minimum range. SSRM boat? Don't let him close within 250m.

So many people keep yelling for balance among weapons that ARE NOT MEANT TO BE BALANCED. The Streak SRM is supposed to be an all around better weapon than the SRM. The cost of that is ammo that cost more and the launcher weighs more.

The only way to truly fix this (which I honestly think should happen anyway) is to limit the size of hard points in mechs like in MW4. I'm going to get a lot of hate from the dual gauss and dual ac 20 catapult players for this, but those hard points were meant to mount machine guns based on the original design of the mech. That big of a gun should not fit there. I would be ok with that happening on an omni mech but the IS won;t have those for years to come.

[Mongoose Trueborn]

Krivvan, on 28 November 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

It was during the first days of an old closed beta patch. Having a team carry me is exactly my point about stats not being useful.

After I exclusively started lone-wolf pugging my stats in Open beta are at a much more realistic 289/93 W/L and 5 to 7 KDR.

As of right now I'm 837/55 with 1448 kills and 72 deaths for a K/D of 20.11. I've mastered the Jenner, Catapult, Cataphract, and Atlas. I'm not the best in my clan either.

[Krivvan]

Kell Commander, on 28 November 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

The only way to truly fix this (which I honestly think should happen anyway) is to limit the size of hard points in mechs like in MW4. I'm going to get a lot of hate from the dual gauss and dual ac 20 catapult players for this, but those hard points were meant to mount machine guns based on the original design of the mech. That big of a gun should not fit there. I would be ok with that happening on an omni mech but the IS won;t have those for years to come.

The mechlab customization doesn't represent switching out weapons via omni pods. They represent literally ripping a weapon off a mech and spending a ridiculous sum of cbills in connecting other systems. The way customization works in this game is actually more limited than what you could do with IS mechs in the tabletop before omni mechs, it was just never done because it's not as if everyone can afford a factory to build their own custom mech. Omni mechs only have the benefit of being able to quickly change loadouts in the field, in other aspects they are even more limited (switching out engine not being allowed).

Again, this is all canon stuff and shouldn't be an argument in of itself for how this game should work.

Mongoose Trueborn, on 28 November 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

As of right now I'm 837/55 with 1448 kills and 72 deaths for a K/D of 20.11. I've mastered the Jenner, Catapult, Cataphract, and Atlas. I'm not the best in my clan either.

And? We aren't comparing e-penises here, we're talking about the supposed unfairness of lock-on weapons and how stats aren't a great indicator for that. (But if we were comparing e-penises I'd comment "get that playing in 4-person groups I assume?")

Edited by Krivvan, 28 November 2012 - 10:45 AM.

[IamSeanConnery]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 November 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

Right the team that masses fire the most wins.

OR they are being hammered by Brawlers. I have wracked up to 4 kills per game in a Missile boat. not often but I have done it. Kills are not the only Metric for defining how good a system is. Fire Support may or may not get the most Kills but they can definitely contribute to the kill in a large way.

Exactly. And the best part? You don't need to fret about your missile lock breaking- because your teammates are in proximity. This is a very effective use of LRMs.

[Nightcrept]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 28 November 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

As of right now I'm 837/55 with 1448 kills and 72 deaths for a K/D of 20.11. I've mastered the Jenner, Catapult, Cataphract, and Atlas. I'm not the best in my clan either.

Congrats you have a high kdr in a clan playing on pre-mades.

[Joseph Mallan]

Quote

[color=#959595]I'm going to get a lot of hate from the dual gauss and dual ac 20 catapult players for this, but those hard points were meant to mount machine guns based on the original design of the mech.[/color]

Not hate but a hard point does this:

Quote

[color=#000000]A [/color]hardpoint[color=#000000], or [/color]weapon station[color=#000000], is any part of an [/color]airframe[color=#000000] designed to carry an external load. This includes a point on the [/color]wing[color=#000000] or [/color]fuselage[color=#000000] of [/color]military aircraft[color=#000000] where external [/color]ordnance[color=#000000], [/color]countermeasures[color=#000000], [/color]gun pods[color=#000000], [/color]targeting pods[color=#000000] or [/color]drop tanks [color=#000000]can be mounted.[/color]

So by definition a hard point can carry any number of mission specific equipment...BUT being fair, it can also have weight limits.

[Nightcrept]

The simple fact of the matter is that this game is meant to be a combat simulator type game. Not a e-sport arena game. If they want to add an arena mode then wonderful but otherwise LRM's SSRM's etc are fine.

And no weapon in this game is really more skill intensive then any other.

[Joseph Mallan]

Platinum Booger, on 28 November 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

Exactly. And the best part? You don't need to fret about your missile lock breaking- because your teammates are in proximity. This is a very effective use of LRMs.

On the contrary. Missile lock has become quite fragile over the last few patches.

[thenightisdark]

Captain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

My question, as in the poll, is do you think that a LOWS weapon like an SSRM that can't miss, locks on, and all the kid has to do is point in your direction and brush his mouse of your mech once every 2 seconds before the lock breaks to keep firing his no-miss lock on missiles... Should that be anywhere near as good as lasers that require you to keep the whole beam on the target the whole time? Should it be as good as an AC that can easily miss and frequently does miss thanks to server lag?

You forgot the CRIPPLING WEAKNESS to LOWS. Get out of their range. Its 270 meters, what are you *** and trying to hump their leg?

Back the F off and Shoot them. The SSRMs are needed to keep those jenners from having babies on my Atlas's legs.