249 replies to this topic

[HlynkaCG]

Mongoose Trueborn, on 28 November 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

This forums are dominated by this crap. People with a cup of dice that want MWO to be a 3d version of TT.

Is this a bad thing?

Battletech has been around (i'd wager) since before you were born so there must be something to it.

Mongoose Trueborn, on 28 November 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

Grab your best 4 and I'll grab any of my 4 and we can do some timed drops together until we fight. I'm on EU server in the R-Sauce channel.

I'm on NGNG, usually log in at 1800 pacific standard time. Teamspeak name is same as my forum profile.

Further more, if we do drop together and your team does win I will post as much on this forum and concede the point. Afterall, it's not bragging if you can back it up.

Would you be willing to do the same? Or would you pull a "no true scotsman" and blame your loss on your team mates, or say that I was "carried" by mine?

PS:
Current win loss is 496/200 and K/D is 1.67 I drive a Commando, a Cataphract, and a Hunchback 4P

I will also echo what others have said and point out that this is a war game not a sports arena and that while being a 10th Dan blackbelt may make you a badass soldiers carry rifles for a reason.

[Enigmos]

So I have a Founder's Cat C-1. I can either use it to waddle around slowly with 1440 artimis equipped LRM missiles or I can waddle around faster with three heavy pulse lasers.

With the pulse lasers my large vulnerability window drops me pretty quick. With the missiles I survive usually until the the scouts swarm me.

Either way the amount of skill is subjectively similar.

[dF0X]

Pointing your weapons really isn't a skill, sorry. I know there's a cadre hear that believes that pointing a mouse is skill, but it really isn't.

Now, pointing to compensate for terrible lag could be considered a skill i guess, but that's just due to bad code.

Knowing what to shoot, when, and where to go and who to help - those are skills.

[Muykul]

I agree with you that "lock on" weapons are easier to use than everything else and I I have to admit to being a bit frustrated with LRMs and SSRMS, especially when LRM + Artemis was insta-kill. However, I think there are good counters in place right now. After the Artemis nerf, LRMs lost their shine for a while. Now they are back in full force. In response, pilots are equipping more AMS and grouping up to make the AMS more effective. I've been in several groups recently where my AMS was completely expended or I've moved on to my 2nd ton of ammo.

But AMS aside, there are perfectly legitimate strategy counters to LRMs and SSRMs. LRMs are easily countered by a light mech who knows what they are doing. It's dangerous work to be sure, but I've had plenty of kills sneaking through the cave and nailing those LRM boats from behind. Either that LRM boat turns around and chases me off, or I 3 shot their R-CT. I can't tell you the number of victories I've had where the 2 Catapults and 1 Atlas are busy chasing me around with their 6 medium lasers while the rest of my team advances without the LRM spam.

SSRMs on the other hand are useless from more than 300m. I know everyone likes to bash the large laser, but this is where that shines. If you can trim the ears off a CPLT-A1 between 600m and 300m, then you don't have to worry about SSRM spam at 300m. Smaller mechs can simply find cover.

-Muykul

[Valcoer]

<Salute>
for the most part I appreciate the oppinion that started this thread. I do much better with lrms than I do with most other weapons even tho I only used them to get through the elite tier of my catapult efficiencies on the c1.
Sure I would prefer a game where only skill played a part in the battle. Since this is not the case, since people can pay for better performance, since skill is a function of frame rate I think there is nothing wrong with the weapon systems as is.
Or am I too understand that you want a level playing field if this is the case then perhaps pgi should force everyone to use the recommended hardware or the minimum hardware so that the skill is what makes the difference not the hardware. its the same thing you dont want to use lows then dont use them, if you have installed the 2000 dollar graphics card then install the low end graphics card and show us your skill and then complain about the lows. try obtaining a lock with a streak on a jenner while running a radeon hd3200 graphics card now that is skill.
the point is not everyone runs the same hardware and so it is with lows not everyone runs the same weapon systems. the weapon system are what they are. Obviously its the skill not the graphics card that is the deciding factor in most battles or is it? how would you know? so dont talk to me about a level playing field when my frame rate is just above 10. dont tell me that its too easy to aquire a lock when my frame rate is just above 10. Do I wine when a player who has a frame rate of 60fps locks on to me and takes my ears and my ssrms? no I do not. Do I wine when a player is running a jenner and I cant get a lock because I cant hold the cursor over him for the required amount of time? no (ok at least not on the forums hehehe)
There is more at play here than just the weapon systems and the effects they have on the battle and I think you should realize it takes real skill when your frame rate is at 7 to lock a jenner with a streak or at least blind dumb luck.

[dF0X]

Lockon weapons seem op right now entirely due to the terrible netcode. Players are missing aimed shots much more than they think because the client animations do not reflect the server side accounting.

[Endbr1nger]

Bobzilla, on 28 November 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

It's that easy, just shoot its head or keep away.
Really? How fast does your dragon go? Do you alway find the streak cat alone so you can take the time to shoot his head whithout someone else rocking you around too? Do you find the streak cat that forgets about his jump jets? I guess the hight of a dragon helps to hit the head.

My Dragon goes 81, with no speed tweak, 87 or something like that with it. If the steak Cat is not alone, I run away? Why would I be fighting long odds? If they catch me I die, that happens. If they jump I run under then, or use the jump time to open up the range, depending on how far away they are. Streak Cats are not fast, and once a mech jumps you have a predictable path since there is limited mobility in the air. Its easier to hit a jumping mech with arm weapons than it is to his a mech on the ground. There is nothing I like more than when a mech jumps, now I know exactly where you will be so I can easily lead all my weapons.

I can't play the game for you, but I can tell you that there are people out there who are having no trouble with the streak Cats you are whining about.

Platinum Booger, on 28 November 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

LRMs and Streaks are close to being fine- waiting on ECM. That being said:

I disagree with your analogy regarding the machine gun. It is flawed logic and does not support your point. The machine gun is actually a very efficient weapon already. The problem is that it just doesn't do enough damage to be as useful. However, that's because it's very light but generates no heat. Although a small buff would be appreciated, it is in a different class altogether than 3xLRM15 with Artemis. Exaggeration does not support your point.

Weapons must be balanced to make sure in general skilled weapons have higher damage potential. This makes players play the game and get better over time. However, I do agree with you that there is a limit. LRMs must be powerful enough regardless in order to keep a nice tactical dynamic to the game.

What the OP is really getting at is simply avoiding a game where the tactics are dumbed down to everyone spending 90% of the time hiding and not seeing another mech directly because any noob player with 1 day of training can come along onto the battlefield and lock it down with drown-out-the-sun missile fire which is not fun. If I wanted to play a turret defense game I would go elsewhere. What is the point of leaderboards if everyone is the same skill level? Welcome to LRM warrior online.
Edit:typo.

Maybe the machine gun is not the best analogy, but the point stands. The machine gun is efficient yes, but its not easy to use due to the range restriction. A PPC is a better weapon to use as an example, but there are so many other problems with it right now I didn't think it would really work as a clean example.

If the OP was actually talking about a skill ceiling issue, than he should have actually said that, instead of whining about balancing the game around skill (two different issues).

No one said everyone had the same skill, and only people exaggerating actually think that firing LRMs is of equal skill to firing ballistic weapons in a brawl. The issue that you and the OP are missing, is that the game is not about individual skill. It is a team based game. It is not designed to figure out who is the best player, it is designed to figure out who is the best team. Balancing weapons around skill is counter to what this game is supposed to be. Newbs should be using LRMs, that is the place where they can have the greatest impact as that role requires less skill. That doesn't make it any less valid than the brawler. The game is not about how good you are, its about how well you work your within role and your team.

If you want to find out if you are the best individual player, go play Quake, or SC2. This is not an e-sport, and it never will be.

As it stands right now this is not a game where any newb can pick up an LRM boat and lead the scoreboard. LRMs are not dominating games, I have not been killed by an LRM since the artemis nerf, and neither has anyone else I have been running with.

[Caleb Lee]

Asmosis, on 28 November 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

so intially needs much greater accuracy than lasers. You often need to require lock if your target is a decent pilot.

Total and complete hogwash... I don't use SSRMs except on my Founder Jenner. Believe me, at 139+ KPH maintaining a lock is much harder while weaving in and out of buildings than in my CPLT-C4/C1 for example (don't have an A1). That was even before the new targeting boost they received.

SSRMs are easy mode. They are also my anti-lag shield for light mechs that I have trouble hitting with lasers. My Jenner is a light/med mech killer and a harraser/spotter for LRM boats.

I am a good to great shot with just about any weapon in this game. While I don't agree with the OP on much of what he said, I do agree that LRMs are the easiest weapon to use in the game. SSRMs come next on that list and only because they require you to close the distance.

The knock from 2 little missiles on even a heavy mech is absurd. The bug on maps that darkent the screen needs to be fixed ASAP as well. To be fair, the dark screen works from just about any weapon AC/Gauss etc... included, it's just more noticeable with AC2/SSRM2 and other faster firing/chained weapons like quad AC5 as well.

The lack of a requirement to get a lock and then aim where you want the missiles to go is why I rank them in at the bottom. You get a lock and easily maintain it by crossing the enemy mech with your crosshairs ever 2 seconds. This allows the JJ tactics, rotating torso and stupid 90 degree angle firing that enables SSRM boats like the A1 to constantly knock opponents around, darkent their screen and prevent them from firing.

Heck, even two little SSRM2s on my Jenner prevents some light pilots from scoring much damage in return. It comes down to finding the lag, leading correctly with lasers and changing speed/movement up.

Yes, they are cheesy, easy weapons. Am I glad they are there, yeah, do they need to nerf the weapon knock on the AC2 and SSRM2 and fix the dark screen yep.

If they don't fix some of these issues when SSRM6s come out I will have to roll a streak boat after all. There won't be much point in anything else.

Edited by Caleb Lee, 28 November 2012 - 11:53 AM.

[BalzaSteel]

lol, face it m8, lrm/ssrm are here to stay, because the incompetent have to be able to play too, same reason we'll likely end up with the 'tard view (3pv) PGI is here to make money and if they take out missiles the ppl too lazy to learn skills will have nothing to play and will look elsewhere for their gaming experience.

and while missiles can make a one armed cross eyed moron with the shakes get just as much damage as a skilled player who's boating ballistics or lasers, in the hands of a truly skilled player they are absolutely devastating.

BalzOut

[Cataphract]

Just because you can fire a weapon from cover with a lock doesn't make it no skill. Sure I can fire it every time I get lock, but that doesn't mean I'm getting all this free damage so many seem to think LRMs do. LRMs might not require a higher skill in aiming and timing as other weapons, but the pilot needs a much better skill set in strategic positioning of his mech and judgment to make this no skill weapon most effective. Oh wait seems like LRMs do need skill to use, holy crap what an epiphany. There is a reason there are players that regularly outclass others with LRMs using the same load out, skill. Skill effects LRMS just as much as it does any other weapon. A better skilled pilot with LRMs will do better damage where it counts over the next random shmuck lobbing LRMs. If LRMs were truly no skill weapons then every LRM boat would statistically equal around the same average gains every match which obviously doesn't happen. A bad pilot is still bad even with LRMs. All this doesn't mean that LRMs are going down the wrong or right path right now though. Currently I personally think 1.8 dmg is pushing a fine line especially when you can just ignore rearm costs and get 75% of your total load out free every game and make loads more money then those that are forced to move up and brawl. Either way until we see 8v8 again LRMS only seem no skill op when you consider that most pugs just don't give a damn through hell or high water about teamwork because they want to lone wolf which is what ends in a team getting face rolled by LRMs in under 5 mins time because they just stand out in the open and don't take cover well after its too late.

[Endbr1nger]

BalzaSteel, on 28 November 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

lol, face it m8, lrm/ssrm are here to stay, because the incompetent have to be able to play too, same reason we'll likely end up with the 'tard view (3pv) PGI is here to make money and if they take out missiles the ppl too lazy to learn skills will have nothing to play and will look elsewhere for their gaming experience.

and while missiles can make a one armed cross eyed moron with the shakes get just as much damage as a skilled player who's boating ballistics or lasers, in the hands of a truly skilled player they are absolutely devastating.

BalzOut

If you cannot kill an incompetent pilot using LRM's and SSRM's then maybe you are confused on the definition of the word incompetent. I don't think that word means what you think it means....

[FerretGR]

OriginalTibs, on 28 November 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

If two comparable Atlas' are dueling but one of them is also targetted for incoming LRMs you know who will win the duel.

Well, that's not exactly rocket science. One mech is being attacked by two in that situation. Unless the single Atlas is against two particularly green pilots, that's the way any 2 v. 1 where one of the two matches the single goes down.

[HlynkaCG]

FerretGR, on 28 November 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

Well, that's not exactly rocket science. One mech is being attacked by two in that situation. Unless the single Atlas is against two particularly green pilots, that's the way any 2 v. 1 where one of the two matches the single goes down.

Old Marine corps maxim, If you find yourself fighting even odds, you've messed up

[Kaijin]

Even two comparable Atlases fighting but one of them has a buddy in a Hunchback with a couple of AC/2s - you think the Atlas without the buddy won? Nope.

[TruePoindexter]

Captain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

My question, as in the poll, is do you think that a LOWS weapon like an SSRM that can't miss, locks on, and all the kid has to do is point in your direction and brush his mouse of your mech once every 2 seconds before the lock breaks to keep firing his no-miss lock on missiles... Should that be anywhere near as good as lasers that require you to keep the whole beam on the target the whole time? Should it be as good as an AC that can easily miss and frequently does miss thanks to server lag?

It's not as simple in my view as asking if it should be as good as other weapons. It's different and needs to be balanced on its owner merits. SSRMs were OP when they would always hit CT but were too weak when they started having SRM flight paths and missing. They now lock randomly to parts of a mech but deal too much damage. This will be addressed but doesn't answer you fundamental question.

Regarding SSRMs specifically they fill a very specific niche that for now I think is fine. I think that when we start considering SSRM4's and SSRM6's we will likely have to consider weakening their per missile damage below regular SRM's since otherwise why would you ever run SRM's in the first place?

With LRM's I think the damage buff and the resurgence of slower mechs on the field has breathed new life into them. There was a period where LRM's were missing from the field and it's good that they're back. Effective use of LRM's is a team effort and it's rare for an LRM support mech to be able to engage a target solo with LRMs effectively. Gauss and the like can be used effectively alone so that team effort needs to be rewarded.

TLDR: SSRM's should probably deal a little less damage than SRMs. LRMs are great as is given their requirements.

Captain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

Should LOWS weapons be as good as weapons that require skill? Should they? I think a weapon should provide performance that correlates to skill. LOWS require ZERO SKILL, every other weapon requires at least a modicum of skill and some require a great deal. Does this community want zero skill weapons to be rewarded?

That's the thing though - they actually do require some skill to maximize their use. SSRMs require you understand firing angles so that you can land your shots mostly in the CT as opposed to spreading them around. LRMs demand you understand the ballistic arc so that you can know if your missiles will hit or miss. They also require a lock to be maintained (SSRMs are fire and forget) otherwise they will miss. I regularly get massive volleys fired at me that land harmlessly next to me as I side step out of a lock. Is the same amount of skill required as say landing PPC shots at range? Probably not but to say no skill is required is an over simplification.

Captain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

In my opinion LOWS ought to be the WORST POSSIBLE WEAPONS, with the only reason to use them being that you are too poor of a player to effectively use any other weapon, and as you improve you move on to actual skill based weapons and the LOWS remain a crutch for new players just getting started.

The flaw with this idea though is that if they were the worst weapons then no one would use them. Remember when LRMs were wet noodles? No one ran them. Remember when SSRM's would miss with 30-40% of the shot on an Atlas standing still? People were stripping them off in favor of SRM2/4s! They need to be good but in their own way.

Captain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

In closing, please don't vote "we need LOWS because jenners are OP so keep LOWS how they are", instead vote to nerf jenners (fix lag shield) AND fix LOWS (nerf them to ****). An SRM2 takes skill to hit, and SSRM2 doesn't, and they both do THE SAME DAMAGE. That just isn't right. (The heat is so negligable on either that no one cares about heat, so shut up).

I hate the idea that SSRM2's exist to mess up lights - that's just silly. They exist as a homing guaranteed to hit version of SRM2s and nothing more. As hit detection improves lasers will inevitably become the weapon of choice for dealing with faster mechs so this argument just falls apart faster.

[Solis Obscuri]

Captain Midnight, on 28 November 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

Okay, so first off let me make it known that I hate SSRM and LRM. I think they require zero skill compared to a weapon with a ballistic arc (AC/PPC) or a laser beam. A weapon you have to aim takes skill, a weapon that locks on and auto-aims for you does not. Lately, I've noticed a lot of people saying that LRM/SSRM (From here on out referred to as Lock On Weapon Systems or &quot;LOWS&quot;) still require skill, just a different kind... Tell me, can ANYONE consistently get headshots with AC/20s on their second day of playing? No? Hell can anyone except a talented and practiced player nail headshots consistently period? Nope! Can ANYONE get 600+ damage with no-rearm artemis DDCs on his second day? Yes. People telling me that damage is &quot;all spread around&quot; are delusional because I've been running a 3xLRM15+Artemis Awesome all day and I have been nailing mediums for like 20% of their health per volley, assaults for 7-11%, averaging 600+ damage for holding down left trigger on a target someone ELSE locks. Teamwork? yeah right, more like easy street. If holding down left trigger is teamwork then I'm Ryan Giggs. I kill tagged lights in two goes in those 3xLRM15s; Real skillful! I've played a lot of games, and PPCs are hard to use, AC20 headshots are hard to get, AC2 requires a good sense of how to lead a target, UAC5 requires you to watch your crosshairs and make sure you don't double fire and jam on accident unless you REALLY need to burst someone... Even Gauss requires you to be able to aim at your target and even though the lead isn't terribly hard it's hard enough that not EVERYONE can do it. It takes some skill... Holding down left trigger takes no skill and will provide more damage to a team. My question, as in the poll, is do you think that a LOWS weapon like an SSRM that can't miss, locks on, and all the kid has to do is point in your direction and brush his mouse of your mech once every 2 seconds before the lock breaks to keep firing his no-miss lock on missiles... Should that be anywhere near as good as lasers that require you to keep the whole beam on the target the whole time? Should it be as good as an AC that can easily miss and frequently does miss thanks to server lag? Should LOWS weapons be as good as weapons that require skill? Should they? I think a weapon should provide performance that correlates to skill. LOWS require ZERO SKILL, every other weapon requires at least a modicum of skill and some require a great deal. Does this community want zero skill weapons to be rewarded? In my opinion LOWS ought to be the WORST POSSIBLE WEAPONS, with the only reason to use them being that you are too poor of a player to effectively use any other weapon, and as you improve you move on to actual skill based weapons and the LOWS remain a crutch for new players just getting started. In closing, please don't vote &quot;we need LOWS because jenners are OP so keep LOWS how they are&quot;, instead vote to nerf jenners (fix lag shield) AND fix LOWS (nerf them to ****). An SRM2 takes skill to hit, and SSRM2 doesn't, and they both do THE SAME DAMAGE. That just isn't right. (The heat is so negligable on either that no one cares about heat, so shut up).

You're an *****.

*ahem*

You are misrepresenting the function of several systems, and claiming direct comparisons in cases where they are inappropriate; I am not sure if this is a deliberate misrepresentation, or simply ignorance of the game mechanics, but these fallacious statements undermine your attempt at a rational argument, and expose a strong (albeit admitted) bias.

Of note:

• There are no ballistic arcs on projectile weapons or PPCs
  
• Laser beams travel instantaneously, so aiming lasers is not 1:1 comparison with weapons that require lead for projectile/target velocity compensation (projectiles, PPCs, SRMs)
  
• You cannot aim headshots with LRMs or SSRMs; comparing this to an AC/20 headshot is not relevant unless it points out that practice with ballistic weapons can produce more favorable results than practice with lock-on missiles (since you will <em>never</em> be able to put 20 LRMs into a 'mechs cockpit, no matter how much you practice). This could be used to bolster an argument that while lock-on missiles are easier to use with less practice, direct-fire ballistics/lasers/PPCs can provide greater benefits if used well, but you don't explore this possibility and it's ramifications on weapon balance.
  
• You imply that leading a target &quot;isn't something everyone can do&quot;. Barring severe physical handicaps, there's nothing that restricts a player from placing their reticule slightly ahead of a target before firing.
  
• Also, (as I am saying for the nth time) define &quot;skill&quot;? In terms of playing MWO, I am not required to calculate ballistic trajectories to fire at a target at long ranges, I do not have to adjust for wind drift or environmental factors on projectiles, I do not have to train myself to aim instinctively or line up sights on a target, control breathing, steady myself against recoil, or manipulate an unwieldy or heavy weapon, my only physical input is a requirement to place a cursor over a target and click a button on my mouse. This plays similarly for all systems, be they projectile, laser, or missile.
  
• Likewise, the argument that server and/or network lag may make it more challenging to hit targets with direct fire weapons doesn't make for a strong argument fo reducing the effectiveness of lock-on missile systems. It reads more like double-punishment for players with poor connection speeds and dobule-rewards for players who exclusively play fast, lagshielded 'mechs. I might as well make the argument that all players with ping <130 and/or fps >25 should get a RNG penalty to accuracy in order to level the playing field with players with bad network or server lag issues, but what would that really contribute to gameplay?

Edited by Solis Obscuri, 28 November 2012 - 02:06 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

My AC/20 rounds slightly drop over distance, but PPCs don't. If you read the game files, it shows that Ballistics are tagged with a gravitational parameter, but PPCs are not.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 28 November 2012 - 02:30 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

Prosperity Park, on 28 November 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

My AC/20 rounds slightly drop over distance, but PPCs don't. If you read the game files, it shows that Ballistics are tagged with a gravitational parameter, but PPCs are not.

AC's do drop at a distance, makes sniping with AC2/5 fairly interesting.

[FunkyFritter]

http://www.sirlin.ne...win-part-1.html

[TruePoindexter]

FunkyFritter, on 28 November 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

http://www.sirlin.ne...win-part-1.html

Heh - I got flamed last time I mentioned that concept.